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Old 09-04-2013, 07:10 PM    (permalink
Cigaro
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Originally Posted by Ozzy View Post
Jameis Winston RS FR QB Florida State: Superstar, simple as that. Already talked about him a little bit, but if he keeps this up, throwing with that accuracy and power, having such great footwork and mechanics in the pocket along with securing the football......He will be the most wanted quarterback prospect in the country regardless of class.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Cigaro regarding my comment "having such great footwork and mechanics in the pocket"
Jameis Winston used pump fakes and shoulder fakes something for whatever reason few quarterbacks use in college. He stood in the pocket well did not always run away from trouble and could take a hit and still look down field. He was great throwing on the run, throwing on the move, throwing under pressure. He kept his feet and shoulders square, and even when he made a mistake he could get himself out of it. I would call that good footwork in the pocket and good pocket presence and ability to move and throw.

I don't know what game you were watching but that is what I saw. His pocket presence, mentality and ability to stay in the pocket and look down field is something few quarterbacks with his athletic ability have at the college level.


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bucfan12 Hackenburgh had the poise of a vet out there. Didn't seem scared, nervous, or flinch unde pressure.

I think under O'brien, he can develop into a top signal caller and first round prospect. he just has IT
He did play very well, but that offense makes quarterbacks look good based off last season. Take Matthew McGloin from last year and how great he developed under that system, sure he made the Raiders roster and beat out Tyler Wilson, but if O'Brien was not the coach of that team he probably would not even be in the NFL right now.

I really like how quick of a release he had, and still crazy they could still get the #1 QB recruit to still come to Penn State even after all that happened. Coach O'Brien is already one of the best coaches in college football and what he is doing at Penn State is really historic, that culture he has already created there.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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Jameis Winston used pump fakes and shoulder fakes something for whatever reason few quarterbacks use in college. He stood in the pocket well did not always run away from trouble and could take a hit and still look down field. He was great throwing on the run, throwing on the move, throwing under pressure. He kept his feet and shoulders square, and even when he made a mistake he could get himself out of it. I would call that good footwork in the pocket and good pocket presence and ability to move and throw.

I don't know what game you were watching but that is what I saw. His pocket presence, mentality and ability to stay in the pocket and look down field is something few quarterbacks with his athletic ability have at the college level.
Judging from this, I'm not really sure you understand what football mechanics are. Either that, or you're just going off on tangents entirely unrelated to what I actually said.

Mechanics are not an all encompassing term for the mental side of the game. It's not really mental at all, it's pretty much all muscle memory. Pump fakes, shoulder fakes, keeping eyes down field, etc., none of those are issues of mechanics, they are all intentional mental choices that are entirely situation dependent, compared to mechanics which should remain constant no matter what.

And when it comes to mechanics, it's Winston's clear weakness. He has a very slow release. When NFL corners aren't giving his receivers as much free space, it can very easily affect him. He too often holds the ball low when standing in the pocket which isn't going to help him speed up any. While he seems to have a natural understanding of how to place his weight, his footwork is nonetheless far from refined.

It was his first game as a redshirt freshman, so these things are somewhat expected and certainly addressable by the time he starts competing for an NFL roster spot. But at it stands are now, mechanics are an area of necessary improvement for him, far from "great".
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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I didnt watch much of FSU/Pitt because...seriously? Of course I didn't watch much of it. But from what I did Winston's footwork looked atrocious. The (first?) TD pass he was literally falling down when he threw the ball. Hey, it was his first game and you can't argue with the results. I'd like to see some improvement there in the next couple years, though.

In the homer department I suggest keeping an eye on Marquez Valdes-Scandling at NC State. Looked like a pro receiver in his first game.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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Cigaro
Judging from this, I'm not really sure you understand what football mechanics are. Either that, or you're just going off on tangents entirely unrelated to what I actually said.

Mechanics are not an all encompassing term for the mental side of the game. It's not really mental at all, it's pretty much all muscle memory. Pump fakes, shoulder fakes, keeping eyes down field, etc., none of those are issues of mechanics, they are all intentional mental choices that are entirely situation dependent, compared to mechanics which should remain constant no matter what.

And when it comes to mechanics, it's Winston's clear weakness. He has a very slow release. When NFL corners aren't giving his receivers as much free space, it can very easily affect him. He too often holds the ball low when standing in the pocket which isn't going to help him speed up any. While he seems to have a natural understanding of how to place his weight, his footwork is nonetheless far from refined.

It was his first game as a redshirt freshman, so these things are somewhat expected and certainly addressable by the time he starts competing for an NFL roster spot. But at it stands are now, mechanics are an area of necessary improvement for him, far from "great".
Ok so let me get this straight, pump fakes and shoulder fakes are not pocket mechanics rather situational mental choices that are done in the pocket? So I could say holding the ball low, which I did not see much of was a situational mental choice as well?

Clearly an issue of semantics rather than anything else. What I view as mechanics is different than your narrow term of where he holds the football before he throws. The kid is fluid athletically throwing the ball, I would take that over a rigid do everything the exact same type of player, which apparently in your view is mechanics, again different views I guess.

And in terms of his footwork, I still do not see where he was so terrible, throwing going to your left as a right handed quarterback, not the easiest thing in the world, and he did it easily. He is a baseball player so yeah he might kick his leg out once in awhile or be a little loose throwing but so what. He has a very talented arm and again for players as athletic as he is, it is not that easy to find someone that good in the pocket this early on much less willing to stay there and take a hit. Compare him to Colin Kaepernick prospect wise, both baseball players, early on at Nevada in the pocket... hell yes Winston had great footwork in that game compared to some of Colin's early contests.

Think what you wish, I loved the kids game and his mechanics in and around the pocket. Cannot wait to watch more of his "necessary improvement" mechanics actually.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Don't crown Jameis yet. Long way to go. He is yet a fluid thrower. But look, Aaron Rodgers had a bit of a hitch coming out of CAL, now it is a rocket.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Odd standout in Dillon Gordon in the LSU game. Both La'el Collins and Jerald Hawkins were very impressive on the line. Hawkins is a RSFR, and he is longgg. Really excelled in pass protection, will be an exciting one to watch in the future.

And Jalen Mills jumps off the screen. Basically toyed with the (lackluster) TCU WR's and made some plays in the run game as TCU was focusing on the perimeter.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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Javzz Odd standout in Dillon Gordon in the LSU game. Both La'el Collins and Jerald Hawkins were very impressive on the line. Hawkins is a RSFR, and he is longgg. Really excelled in pass protection, will be an exciting one to watch in the future.

And Jalen Mills jumps off the screen. Basically toyed with the (lackluster) TCU WR's and made some plays in the run game as TCU was focusing on the perimeter.
Gordon I like his size and potential as a blocker, Collins I knew about and he stood on par with what he was last season.

Hawkins is interesting but I would like to see more from him. Mills is ok as a defensive back, but overall I was not really impressed with that LSU D. They lost so much with those star defensive ends. Hunter #94 looked ok at times and Johnson/Ferguson looked good. But Loston was so so I feel, not sure he is an elite safety and it has taken him so long to even get on the field at LSU and play, the corners are solid but not sure they have elite ability just yet. However Mills did stand out compared to the other LSU corners. The linebackers are average, Barrow looks really impressive physically but does not do much on the field in that one game, but physically he could be a beast if he becomes a little more aggressive.

Guess it can be expected, they lost so much absolutely elite level talent from that defense, that sophomore class a few years back was insane. They are still good but not at that same level of talent from what little I saw in that game. Will see what happens, a lot of players are going to have to step up.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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Buffalo LB Khalil Mack had a terrific game.

Ohio St. LT Jack Mewhort had a good game as well.
Mack was a MONSTER in that game. I feel like he elevated himself the most out of anyone in terms of Draft Prospects.
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Ok so let me get this straight, pump fakes and shoulder fakes are not pocket mechanics rather situational mental choices that are done in the pocket? So I could say holding the ball low, which I did not see much of was a situational mental choice as well?
Do you pump/shoulder fake every time you drop back to pass? No.
Is a pump/shoulder fake a choice, made to (hopefully) give the passer an advantage over the defense? Yes.

Do you hold the ball in a certain position every time you drop back to pass? Yes.
Is holding the ball differently a choice, made to (hopefully) give the passer an advantage over the defense? No.

It's really simple stuff. The stuff you are supposed to do every play, in the same way, is mechanics. The rest isn't.

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Clearly an issue of semantics rather than anything else. What I view as mechanics is different than your narrow term of where he holds the football before he throws.
I clearly also mentioned footwork and release speed as other mechanical issues. Managing the snap, release point, handoffs, etc. are other issues of mechanics. So don't distort this as something else just to try and appear correct.

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The kid is fluid athletically throwing the ball, I would take that over a rigid do everything the exact same type of player, which apparently in your view is mechanics, again different views I guess.
Literally every team wants exactly that. They want the quarterback to drop back consistently in the correct way every play. They want the quarterback to hold the ball at the correct level every play. They want the quarterback to have the correct throwing motion every play.

If that's not what you want, and apparently you don't, I guess this is a pointless discussion as you clearly value an entirely different skillset than pretty much everyone else in football.


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And in terms of his footwork, I still do not see where he was so terrible, throwing going to your left as a right handed quarterback, not the easiest thing in the world, and he did it easily. He is a baseball player so yeah he might kick his leg out once in awhile or be a little loose throwing but so what. He has a very talented arm and again for players as athletic as he is, it is not that easy to find someone that good in the pocket this early on much less willing to stay there and take a hit. Compare him to Colin Kaepernick prospect wise, both baseball players, early on at Nevada in the pocket... hell yes Winston had great footwork in that game compared to some of Colin's early contests.

Think what you wish, I loved the kids game and his mechanics in and around the pocket. Cannot wait to watch more of his "necessary improvement" mechanics actually.
I did not say his footwork was terrible, I said it wasn't refined. What I will say is terrible is the idea that being better than one particular former prospect (one who we should not forget was criticized for himself possessing questionable mechanics) validates anything.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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Just another thing about mechanics - part of the reason a quarterback needs to do things the same way every time is to make playaction more effective, and in turn make the run game more effective because the defense is worried about play-action. Consistency is about disguising what you're doing, too.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:51 AM    (permalink
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Surprise to see Samuels over Matthews in your mentions, Matthews is one of the best wideouts in the nation. But I liked what I saw from Samuels, I think he is going to be able to handle SEC
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Old 09-05-2013, 08:00 AM    (permalink
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I cannot forget Michael Dyer, great to see him back playing football. On a great team that should easily go undefeated and if not it would be a disappointment. They play a pretty awful schedule, maybe they have a little competition against Rutgers and Cincy at the end of the season but most of the teams they play do not have amazing rosters unless they greatly improve off last year. Dyer will never be the only back though, they will still give carries to Perry and others but that is a fine offensive line and he looked good in what little action he saw against Ohio.

Could not find a better place to look good as a runner, having two powerful offensive linemen in Miller and Brown blocking, having a great QB in Bridgewater with a variety of receivers to throw too opening things up in the box.

On the school website he is considered a junior still which I cannot believe, if he has another year of playing time that could help him but if he gets 1200+ yards this year he is as good as gone I think in a weak running back senior class.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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We all know Jameis Winston isn't going to go 25/27 every game without a single ball hitting the ground. But at this point it is clear in 2015, 2016, or 2017 he is going to be a very high pick (probably in 2 sports in 2015 or 16) and be a very wealthy young man. For a RS-Freshman he was making throws few NFL QBs can make. Everyone who has seen him play has called him special and these are the same people who watched 2 First Round QBs play at FSU the past 5 years and at this point Winston is ahead of where E.J. Manuel was as a RS-Senior. In some cases these are coaches who saw Charlie Ward and Chris Weinke at FSU as well.

Arguably that was the best debut for a Freshman QB ever, especially once you factor in the level of competition (Sam Bradford had a similar game vs. a dreadful North Texas team, not one with multiple NFL prospects on defense like Pitt).
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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We all know Jameis Winston isn't going to go 25/27 every game without a single ball hitting the ground. But at this point it is clear in 2015, 2016, or 2017 he is going to be a very high pick (probably in 2 sports in 2015 or 16) and be a very wealthy young man. For a RS-Freshman he was making throws few NFL QBs can make. Everyone who has seen him play has called him special and these are the same people who watched 2 First Round QBs play at FSU the past 5 years and at this point Winston is ahead of where E.J. Manuel was as a RS-Senior. In some cases these are coaches who saw Charlie Ward and Chris Weinke at FSU as well.

Arguably that was the best debut for a Freshman QB ever, especially once you factor in the level of competition (Sam Bradford had a similar game vs. a dreadful North Texas team, not one with multiple NFL prospects on defense like Pitt).
The walk-on Freshman Baker Mayfield from Texas Tech had a pretty impressive debut. I would argue more impressive than Winston because he was a true freshman walk-on QB.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Gordon I like his size and potential as a blocker, Collins I knew about and he stood on par with what he was last season.

Hawkins is interesting but I would like to see more from him. Mills is ok as a defensive back, but overall I was not really impressed with that LSU D. They lost so much with those star defensive ends. Hunter #94 looked ok at times and Johnson/Ferguson looked good. But Loston was so so I feel, not sure he is an elite safety and it has taken him so long to even get on the field at LSU and play, the corners are solid but not sure they have elite ability just yet. However Mills did stand out compared to the other LSU corners. The linebackers are average, Barrow looks really impressive physically but does not do much on the field in that one game, but physically he could be a beast if he becomes a little more aggressive.

Guess it can be expected, they lost so much absolutely elite level talent from that defense, that sophomore class a few years back was insane. They are still good but not at that same level of talent from what little I saw in that game. Will see what happens, a lot of players are going to have to step up.
Was just mentioning a few prospects that I thought really stood out for future reference. Mills was hard to see on TV besides his play in the run. At the game it was easier to see he's a very, very good player with all the tools to be elite. When he played man close to the line his receiver basically had no chance.

As for the other comment. Ends last year were inconsistent, especially post Bama. What we're missing at this point is Minter. Even though statistically we were very good TCU left a number of plays on the field. Safety play has to improve. Barrow was very close to making a few big plays throughout the game. If his last year was any indication he'll do a better job going forward. Picked on him in coverage however.
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Old 09-05-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Good mention there of Christian Hackenburg. Has it all in terms of size, footwork and arm placement.
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Old 09-05-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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The walk-on Freshman Baker Mayfield from Texas Tech had a pretty impressive debut. I would argue more impressive than Winston because he was a true freshman walk-on QB.
Once you're on the field it doesn't matter if you were a 5* or a Walk-on. But for comparison he threw for more 57 more yards than Winston on 33 more pass attempts. Had a QB Rating 100 points lower than Winston and a QBR 20.8 points lower than Winston. This is before comparing the radically different styles of offense and level of opponent.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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I didnt watch much of FSU/Pitt because...seriously? Of course I didn't watch much of it. But from what I did Winston's footwork looked atrocious. The (first?) TD pass he was literally falling down when he threw the ball. Hey, it was his first game and you can't argue with the results. I'd like to see some improvement there in the next couple years, though.

In the homer department I suggest keeping an eye on Marquez Valdes-Scandling at NC State. Looked like a pro receiver in his first game.
He fell to his left because there was a pass rusher about to hit him on the right side.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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MassNole We all know Jameis Winston isn't going to go 25/27 every game without a single ball hitting the ground. But at this point it is clear in 2015, 2016, or 2017 he is going to be a very high pick (probably in 2 sports in 2015 or 16) and be a very wealthy young man. For a RS-Freshman he was making throws few NFL QBs can make. Everyone who has seen him play has called him special and these are the same people who watched 2 First Round QBs play at FSU the past 5 years and at this point Winston is ahead of where E.J. Manuel was as a RS-Senior. In some cases these are coaches who saw Charlie Ward and Chris Weinke at FSU as well.

Arguably that was the best debut for a Freshman QB ever, especially once you factor in the level of competition (Sam Bradford had a similar game vs. a dreadful North Texas team, not one with multiple NFL prospects on defense like Pitt).
I agree totally. Manuel I liked as a leader on FSU but he was so loose with the ball and turned it over, Winston is a lot more smooth so far early on and made those talented receivers look better than they ever did with Manuel throwing the ball.




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SolidGold
The walk-on Freshman Baker Mayfield from Texas Tech had a pretty impressive debut. I would argue more impressive than Winston because he was a true freshman walk-on QB.
It is more impressive in some ways if they are a true freshman, but the kid threw the ball 60 times in a pass happy system, Winston only threw it half that much and impressed far more with less attempts. Again I did not see the Texas Tech game but I would be shocked if Mayfield is half the athlete Winston is. Part of the allure around Winston is that athletic upside and ability to throw the ball.


Only guy that compares to Jameis Winston early on in terms of being just a ridiculous QB talent might be Michael Vick, who also was a redshirt freshman. Vick is by far a faster player but Winston is by far a better passer thus far. And Russell Wilson had the baseball background as well. Same thing with Vick and he didn't even play baseball since the 8th grade and they wanted him. Any athletic quarterback that can move baseball wants it seems.


Terrelle Pryor was pretty solid as a freshman at Ohio State but still had issues with his game, RGIII was good as a freshman but he never really became great as a passer till later in his career I feel and Kellen Moore was good from the get go but obviously has his major limits physically.

Michael Vick is the top dog for a young talented freshman quarterbacks. Winston is right up there with him I think right off the bat, will see how the rest of the season goes. What is so fun to imagine about Winston, he is already good at throwing the ball, Vick could really chuck it but it was more impressive watching him run, not the case with Winston.



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As for the other comment. Ends last year were inconsistent, especially post Bama.
Mingo and Montgomery were absolutely superstar talents as defensive ends, will see how they do in the pros but so far from what little I have seen they do not have talent like that at defensive end, not even close.

Look at their 2011 sophomore class on defense, it was crazy good.
DE Barkevious Mingo
DT Bennie Logan
DT Michael Brockers
DE Sam Montgomery
OLB Lamin Barrow
ILB Kevin Minter
CB Tyrann Mathieu
CB Tharold Simon
SS Eric Reid

All of those guys are in the NFL right now outside of Barrow who is still on LSU. That is a lot to replace.
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Old 09-05-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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I didnt watch much of FSU/Pitt because...seriously? Of course I didn't watch much of it. But from what I did Winston's footwork looked atrocious. The (first?) TD pass he was literally falling down when he threw the ball. Hey, it was his first game and you can't argue with the results. I'd like to see some improvement there in the next couple years, though.
He was side stepping a blitz, squared his shoulders and delivered a rope down the field for a touchdown pass. What in the world was wrong with his footwork there?


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Old 09-05-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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evading pressure is no excuse for falling down while throwing the ball, throwing off your back foot or other poor mechanical issues that tend to be exacerbated in these exact pressure situations

breakdowns in mechanics such as these are where you see a lot of bad plays such as INTs happen

in this case a TD happened. it was also his first game, i'm not going to dwell on it
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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Once you're on the field it doesn't matter if you were a 5* or a Walk-on. But for comparison he threw for more 57 more yards than Winston on 33 more pass attempts. Had a QB Rating 100 points lower than Winston and a QBR 20.8 points lower than Winston. This is before comparing the radically different styles of offense and level of opponent.
Point is Winston was a redshirt with a year in the system while the TT kid was a true freshman.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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I agree totally. Manuel I liked as a leader on FSU but he was so loose with the ball and turned it over, Winston is a lot more smooth so far early on and made those talented receivers look better than they ever did with Manuel throwing the ball.




It is more impressive in some ways if they are a true freshman, but the kid threw the ball 60 times in a pass happy system, Winston only threw it half that much and impressed far more with less attempts. Again I did not see the Texas Tech game but I would be shocked if Mayfield is half the athlete Winston is. Part of the allure around Winston is that athletic upside and ability to throw the ball.


Only guy that compares to Jameis Winston early on in terms of being just a ridiculous QB talent might be Michael Vick, who also was a redshirt freshman. Vick is by far a faster player but Winston is by far a better passer thus far. And Russell Wilson had the baseball background as well. Same thing with Vick and he didn't even play baseball since the 8th grade and they wanted him. Any athletic quarterback that can move baseball wants it seems.


Terrelle Pryor was pretty solid as a freshman at Ohio State but still had issues with his game, RGIII was good as a freshman but he never really became great as a passer till later in his career I feel and Kellen Moore was good from the get go but obviously has his major limits physically.

Michael Vick is the top dog for a young talented freshman quarterbacks. Winston is right up there with him I think right off the bat, will see how the rest of the season goes. What is so fun to imagine about Winston, he is already good at throwing the ball, Vick could really chuck it but it was more impressive watching him run, not the case with Winston.



Mingo and Montgomery were absolutely superstar talents as defensive ends, will see how they do in the pros but so far from what little I have seen they do not have talent like that at defensive end, not even close.

Look at their 2011 sophomore class on defense, it was crazy good.
DE Barkevious Mingo
DT Bennie Logan
DT Michael Brockers
DE Sam Montgomery
OLB Lamin Barrow
ILB Kevin Minter
CB Tyrann Mathieu
CB Tharold Simon
SS Eric Reid

All of those guys are in the NFL right now outside of Barrow who is still on LSU. That is a lot to replace.
You forgot to mention Manziel when talking about athletic QBs with upside. It seems that people only equate the word upside with black QBs - it's bizarre.
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Old 09-05-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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You forgot to mention Manziel when talking about athletic QBs with upside. It seems that people only equate the word upside with black QBs - it's bizarre.
Did you not see my other thread? I actually hope for him to fail because of his choices so far outside of football and see no reason why he should be considered in elite company of quarterback prospects past or present.

Of course he could be included in that talk, but I never thought he was elite in terms of NFL talent before this off season and still do not. Not because he is white, thanks, it is because he is a total douche bag and at this time is not worth the time it takes to talk about his athletic ability and or upside because he can barely go a week without doing something stupid off the field.


Will see how the season goes, maybe Manziel will change, but it did not happen week one and I don't think any NFL organization is looking at him and thinking wow he could be a franchise savor. A smallist, athletic quarterback, decent arm that is a total trainwreck off the field where you cannot trust what he does and he might give a blackeye to the organization at any second.

Maybe that is just me, but I do not consider him in elite category at all and I view Winston just after one game being miles ahead of Manziel in a lot of areas on and off the field.
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