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Old 10-09-2013, 02:33 PM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
The other thing is, your argument only takes into account games where Tony has thrown a pick in the last 4 min of the game. While that is the ultimate choke, failing to covert and move downfield for a winning score is also choking. It doesn't HAVE TO end in an INT. How about missing a wide open guy and/or failing to convert on 3rd down and forcing to kick the ball back to the other team only to see them run out the game... Is that not also choking? How about not being able to run out the clock and forcing to kick only to see the other team score on the winning dive? There are so many ways to describe a loss in a pressure situation. I don't want to get into semantics, but is the word "choking" too strongly used? I don't want to argue the word, I just want to discuss his failures.
Okay, since 2007 the Cowboys have had 31 4th quarter or overtime drives that have resulted in anything other than a touchdown, field goal, or interception (since we have already discussed INTs), where they were either tied or behind by 8 of less. The Giants had 18.

In those the Cowboys missed 7 field goals compared to only 2 by the Giants (one was blocked). You can't blame the QB for those really unless he didn't get close. So if you eliminate drives where they got to the 33 (50 or less field goal), that eliminates 5 from Dallas and 1 from the Giants. So now the number is 26 vs. 17.

Four of those drives ended in fumbles by a player other than Romo. Two of the Giants drives ended in fumbles by a player other than Eli. You can't blame a QB for a receiver or runningback fumbling (unless that QB is Romo than of course you would). That drops it to 22 vs. 15.

So Dallas had 22 drives that ended without a score or INT that could possibly be blamed on the QB (not all of those were Romo) compared to 15 for the Giants. Lastly, let's get rid of the times when there were 10 or more minutes left. The beginning of the 4th isn't really crunch time yet in a one possession game. That is 11 for Dallas and 5 for New York.

The final tally is 11 drives that can be blamed on Romo compared to 10 that can be blamed on Manning. And remember, that doesn't include INTs. So again, Romo outperforms Eli.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Romo

Last three minutes: 4
Last three minutes trailing: 1
Last two minutes: 2
Last two minutes trailing: 1
Last minute: 2
Last minute trailing: 1

Manning

Last three minutes: 9
Last three minutes trailing: 5
Last two minutes: 4
Last two minutes trailing: 2
Last minute: 1
Last minute trailing: 0
Okay. But how many of those games had the season on the line? If Romo throws an interception in a week 2 game against the Eagles, then no problem. But if it's the last game of the season that decides if your teams is playing the playoffs, well that is different.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Okay. But how many of those games had the season on the line? If Romo throws an interception in a week 2 game against the Eagles, then no problem. But if it's the last game of the season that decides if your teams is playing the playoffs, well that is different.
Okay, here are the parameters:

Last four minutes of the game, team trailing, last five games of the season.

Dallas had 17 such drives. New York had 7.

Dallas: 8 TDs vs. 1 INT 3-11 record (21%)
New York: 3 TDs vs. 2 INT 1-6 record (14%)

So once again, Romo wins. Also, the last numbers post I had was not entirely accurate. I was looking at the wrong column. The numbers aren't right but the end conclusion is the same. Any more brain busters?
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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deflect and ignore, no worries, i wouldn't want to talk about the meat of the post either. just nitpick little details. i'll remember not to use any hyperbole in the future, in case it's bizarrely misinterpreted as serious.

Jay Cutler - because he's never thrown horribly mis-timed interceptions.
Matthew Stafford - i forget, what playoff games has he won? how many times has he gone to the playoffs?
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan - the falcons are a really, really good team this year. it's too bad he's holding that offense back from winning.
Drew Brees
Eli Manning - winless? he clearly can't win important games anymore.
Robert Griffin - seriously?
Colin Kaepernick - seriously?
Russell Wilson
Ben Roethlisberger - he's willing his team to a lot of victories up there in pitt.
Andrew Luck - can't win the big playoff games, sucks.
Tom Brady - hasn't won a super bowl in almost a decade. terrible qb.
Peyton Manning - the biggest playoff choker ever, should be cut.
Phillip Rivers
Michael Vick - seriously?
Carson Palmer - seriously?
Andy Dalton - seriously?
Cam Newton - he can't even come close to .500, must be an awful qb.
Matt Schaub - yes, let's talk about chokers, and pull up matt schaub right now. in this thread. after the first page. brilliant.
Alex Smith - seriously?



and i'd take romo and win more games than with most of those guys. no one in the history of ever has said he's the best qb in the league. but he's sure as **** better than most of the average to mediocre guys you put on that list. but it's cool, keep on believing that your team is better than awful and that it's all romo's fault. it's always better when it's obvious that someone has a difficult time evaluating qb play.

and, oh. oops on the hyperbole. i guess i did it again.
Using hyperbole to exaggerate a point you didn't really mean to make is normally what you do and you're good at trying to demean and embarrass others at it in the process. I won't stand blameless of attempting that myself at times, but the sarcasm in your post deserved a sarcastic response back.

What exactly did you attempt to point out in the "meat" of your post? That Romo is a good QB? Sure. That he can lead comeback wins? Sure. That at times it has been the fault of his surrounding cast? Yep, that's a point that's also been made over and over as well. You say it's the fault of others. I say he can't do it alone. We're saying the same thing. Another case of the cup half empty/half full. There are highs and lows to his game. You can't ignore the things he does well, and you can't ignore the clumsy mistakes that seem to happen either.

Your example of one season of games to back up an entire career is hardly substantial, but I'll give you credit for the effort. The gist is there. If putting us in position to compete for the playoffs is meaningful, then I think a lot of other QBs can do the same. That list of QBs I made was NOT a list of guys who could replace Romo and do the same thing. You and some others might have missed that point. Rather, that was a list of guys who I thought could win more than 3 games with the Cowboys. Since you were the one who said many other QBs would lead the Cowboys to a 3-13 season. Then again, I caught you in hyperbole. Next time say what you mean if you want a proper response.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Okay, here are the parameters:

Last four minutes of the game, team trailing, last five games of the season.

Dallas had 17 such drives. New York had 7.

Dallas: 8 TDs vs. 1 INT 3-11 record (21%)
New York: 3 TDs vs. 2 INT 1-6 record (14%)

So once again, Romo wins. Also, the last numbers post I had was not entirely accurate. I was looking at the wrong column. The numbers aren't right but the end conclusion is the same. Any more brain busters?
I'll say this. You're doing a good job of making Romo look better than Eli. So do you think Romo would have 2 SB rings if he were on the Giants? I'm not sure of that answer myself.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Okay, since 2007 the Cowboys have had 31 4th quarter or overtime drives that have resulted in anything other than a touchdown, field goal, or interception (since we have already discussed INTs), where they were either tied or behind by 8 of less. The Giants had 18.

In those the Cowboys missed 7 field goals compared to only 2 by the Giants (one was blocked). You can't blame the QB for those really unless he didn't get close. So if you eliminate drives where they got to the 33 (50 or less field goal), that eliminates 5 from Dallas and 1 from the Giants. So now the number is 26 vs. 17.

Four of those drives ended in fumbles by a player other than Romo. Two of the Giants drives ended in fumbles by a player other than Eli. You can't blame a QB for a receiver or runningback fumbling (unless that QB is Romo than of course you would). That drops it to 22 vs. 15.

So Dallas had 22 drives that ended without a score or INT that could possibly be blamed on the QB (not all of those were Romo) compared to 15 for the Giants. Lastly, let's get rid of the times when there were 10 or more minutes left. The beginning of the 4th isn't really crunch time yet in a one possession game. That is 11 for Dallas and 5 for New York.

The final tally is 11 drives that can be blamed on Romo compared to 10 that can be blamed on Manning. And remember, that doesn't include INTs. So again, Romo outperforms Eli.
Let's make a deal. I trade you Tony Romo for Jay Cutler.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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I'll say this. You're doing a good job of making Romo look better than Eli. So do you think Romo would have 2 SB rings if he were on the Giants? I'm not sure of that answer myself.
I don't know that answer. I will say that since 2007, the Giants have had a more productive running game in 4 of 6 seasons. The Giants have also had a slighty better defense than Dallas over the same time. Coaching for the Giants has certainly been better. But gun to my head, I think Romo would have a ring if he played on the Giants.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Okay, here are the parameters:

Last four minutes of the game, team trailing, last five games of the season.

Dallas had 17 such drives. New York had 7.

Dallas: 8 TDs vs. 1 INT 3-11 record (21%)
New York: 3 TDs vs. 2 INT 1-6 record (14%)

So once again, Romo wins. Also, the last numbers post I had was not entirely accurate. I was looking at the wrong column. The numbers aren't right but the end conclusion is the same. Any more brain busters?
Last five games of each season that Manning and Romo have been starters?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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They taste delicious

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Old 10-09-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Let's make a deal. I trade you Tony Romo for Jay Cutler.
That's actually an interesting trade.

Initially I thought I rather have Cutler. Then when you break them down, it's not as easy to say:

-Both are elusive and can play well behind a porous OL. Cutler makes up for his OL with arm strength and an ability to throw with poor mechanics, Romo is mobile and shifty in the pocket.

-Both are relatively accurate.

-Both have had their share of success and failures. Cutler has had more playoff success but Romo has been better statistically.

-Both are not known as great 2 minute drill quarterbacks.

-Both have their flaws in progression reading. Cutler stares down his targets and fits it into the primary too much, believing in his arm strength at times when he shouldn't. Romo is the opposite, he's shy to pull the trigger and won't fit the ball into tight windows unless he absolutely has to.

-Both have similar regular season success rates.


This is about as close of a matchup as you can get. If I had to choose, I go with Cutler. I think Cutler did it with less talent around him. And he also has more playoff pedigree. But then again, Cutler had much better defensive talent around him than Romo as well so it's a wash.

It's damn close. If you asked me this same question last year I probably say Romo. In fact if you ask me again tomorrow I might say Romo. I really don't know who I go with.

It's a very interesting question.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Helluva play by Trevathan ... but DeMarcoooooooo!!!!
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Let's make a deal. I trade you Tony Romo for Jay Cutler.
I love me some Cutler. I think he is a better athlete and has a better arm. But I would make that trade in a second.

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Last five games of each season that Manning and Romo have been starters?
Ummm, I didn't check to see if Romo was the QB on those drives or if they happened to be when he was injured.

EDIT: There were four games in which Romo did not play on the drives. The record was 1-3 with 2 TD and 0 INT. So correcting for that:

Romo: 6 TD, 1 INT, 2-8 (20%)
Manning: 3 TD, 2 INT, 1-6 (14%)

So Romo is still better. At this point, I don't know if Ness is being a smart ass or a troll.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 

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Old 10-09-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Actually the proper read is the slot. Checking down to DeMarco would be an example of him throwing into bigger windows to avoid the mistake.

In this play, the defense showed 2 deep but the FS sank, which vacated an open hole before the single high on a skinny ran by the slot.

Romo had pressure, but he also had enough time to throw the slot open. That ball should have came out before the slot made his break inside so it would get there by the time he got open into the hole.

Again, throw guys open. Romo doesn't do this as much as he should. It's one of my bigger critiques of him.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Actually looking at it, that's a hard throw. He needed to manipulate that safety with his eyes and make him sink into Murray then throw it up top.

It's hard to gauge from that gif but the pressure might have got there before he'd be able to pull off the throw.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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EDIT: There were four games in which Romo did not play on the drives. The record was 1-3 with 2 TD and 0 INT. So correcting for that:

Romo: 6 TD, 1 INT, 2-8 (20%)
Manning: 3 TD, 2 INT, 1-6 (14%)

So Romo is still better. At this point, I don't know if Ness is being a smart ass or a troll.
Right, because asking for information that isn't out of context means you're a smartass/troll.

You're the one that first brought up the said parameters. I'm simply asking more about your researched information.

You didn't answer my question. Was what you were describing about the last five games of the season account for the duration as being a starter? You cataloged as best you could from 2006-present for Romo and 2004-present for Manning under those time frames?
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Right, because asking for information that isn't out of context means you're a smartass/troll.

You're the one that first brought up the said parameters. I'm simply asking more about your researched information.

You didn't answer my question. Was what you were describing about the last five games of the season account for the duration as being a starter? You cataloged as best you could from 2006-present for Romo and 2004-present for Manning under those time frames?
I used 2007 through the present. I used those dates because it was an equal time frame when they were both full time starters. It also allows better comparisons because the opponents are pretty much the same.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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I firmly think Romo is a bad late game QB in games that matter, but Jr is making a great stat based arguement. I'm still minorly surprised people are defending Romo at this point but its a good back and forth.

I'm with BBD'spoint from earlier. Romo has to show me something for me to give him credit. Win games/big games/playoff games/championships.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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JR can you give me a link to those stats? I've always been interested and never knew where to find it.
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Old 10-09-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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JR can you give me a link to those stats? I've always been interested and never knew where to find it.
Pretty sure JRD is using his Random Generator again. The only use it has in Mafia and here is to troll people.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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This topic has been covered to death...

http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowbo...fourth-quarter

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ive-qbs/16571/

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There is no denying that Manning has earned his reputation as one of the NFL’s clutch kings. He’s had 25 game-winning drives in his career, including five in the playoffs and a pair to claim Super Bowl rings. According to research done by ColdHardFootballFacts.com, Tim Tebow, Tom Brady and Matt Ryan are the only active quarterbacks with better winning percentages than Manning (.510) in potential game-winning drive situations.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...erbacks/23213/

*Note* "Captain Comeback" (Roger Staubach) had a lower percentage of success on comeback wins in the 4th Quarter than Romo.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com...ive-qbs/16571/

http://itiswhatitis.weei.com/sports/...ill-mr-clutch/

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In the 2011 season in games decided by 0-7 points, Brady has completed 63.7 percent of his passes for 14 touchdowns and nine interceptions, all of which add up to a 90.8 passer rating, a mark that places him below Aaron Rodgers (119.2), Tony Romo (98.1), Matthew Stafford (98.0), Drew Brees (97.5) and Eli Manning (92.9).
Pro Football Reference carries a ton of stats including the metric based ones I posted earlier. Great for comparisons.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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D Unit is to the cowboys as Raiderz4Life is to the raiders.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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so kill the messenger, try desperately to ignore the message. got it.



i'll repeat it really slowly for you:

tony romo's "moments" came in getting a crappy team to even within sniffing distance of the playoffs. he repeatedly overcame massive deficits to get the team wins it shouldn't have had. without romo, that was a 4-12 team with an irrelevant game against the redskins (iirc) at the end.

now, let's play shift the goal posts and play "well only the last game matters" or "he never did it in the most important games!" or the ever popular "but i totally saw the three times i can think of that he choked, so he's a choker" card for the 41st time so i can unsubscribe from what's clearly a pointless conversation.



next time i'd suggest actually reading a post in its entirety, before posting a reply to it. hopefully that's not a substantial burden.
Why are you so intent on making up something that's not there? I never ignored the points you tried to make. You gave a game by game breakdown but the end point in doing it failed because it just ended up in a regurgitation of things that were already said. It didn't define anything new. Yeah, so Romo wins games we should've lost and loses games we should've won. High highs, low lows throughout his career. Nothing new.

The ONLY new point you brought to the table was the idea that the Cowboys talent was so inferior and that any other QB would have led the Cowboys to a bottom dwelling record... but that entire point was hyperbole according to your own admission. So how strong really was your message? Cause apparently when I responded to it, you only had more failed sarcasm to fall back on... in which btw you totally misinterpreted by thinking that list was a comparison between Romo and those QBs. That list was a list of guys who would win more than 3 games with the Cowboys... a response to your "hyperbole".

Maybe you're used to putting words in people's mouths or maybe you're just finding a way to bow out here. But I applaud your exit. No intent to shift goal posts ever existed. Romo's a competitor, but his clutch factor needs work.
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Why are you so intent on making up something that's not there? I never ignored the points you tried to make. You gave a game by game breakdown but the end point in doing it failed because it just ended up in a regurgitation of things that were already said. It didn't define anything new. Yeah, so Romo wins games we should've lost and loses games we should've won. High highs, low lows throughout his career. Nothing new.

The ONLY new point you brought to the table was the idea that the Cowboys talent was so inferior and that any other QB would have led the Cowboys to a bottom dwelling record... but that entire point was hyperbole according to your own admission. So how strong really was your message? Cause apparently when I responded to it, you only had more failed sarcasm to fall back on... in which btw you totally misinterpreted by thinking that list was a comparison between Romo and those QBs. That list was a list of guys who would win more than 3 games with the Cowboys... a response to your "hyperbole".

Maybe you're used to putting words in people's mouths or maybe you're just finding a way to bow out here. But I applaud your exit. No intent to shift goal posts ever existed. Romo's a competitor, but his clutch factor needs work.
Are you a 55 year old cliched sports analyst? Just blatantly ignoring stats and evidence thrown at you in favor of the old psychological horse ****?
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Old 10-09-2013, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Are you a 55 year old cliched sports analyst? Just blatantly ignoring stats and evidence thrown at you in favor of the old psychological horse ****?
You like that, ah? ;)

OK Brodie. Romo is clutch because the stats back it up. Stats always tell the truth. The FULL truth and there are no other factors that go into Tony Romo's stats except his own self. But it's his team's fault for sucking cause they would be league bottom dwellers without him. They don't factor into Tony Romo's glorious stats. Only Tony gets that credit. The bad stats belong to the horrible team and the good stats belong to Tony.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Actually the proper read is the slot. Checking down to DeMarco would be an example of him throwing into bigger windows to avoid the mistake.

In this play, the defense showed 2 deep but the FS sank, which vacated an open hole before the single high on a skinny ran by the slot.

Romo had pressure, but he also had enough time to throw the slot open. That ball should have came out before the slot made his break inside so it would get there by the time he got open into the hole.

Again, throw guys open. Romo doesn't do this as much as he should. It's one of my bigger critiques of him.
I was watching that again myself and I didn't notice how far short we would have been had he checked down to Demarco. Murray had stopped just past the LOS. Would have been 3rd and 12 at best. I think Romo at that point was in the moment of the game which was to not check down.

Doesn't excuse it but sheds more light on what looks to have happened.
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