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Old 10-10-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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Originally Posted by cgf (Rosebud) View Post
I hate it for us. When it comes time to replace Eli we need a top 5 pick, and granted that offseason could put us in position to pick that high next year, but that still seems awful. Especially if you just do everything else except for the Eli trade part.

And the nicks trade, if he walks he walks and we take the comp third, if we can resign him instead or franchise and trade him those are both much better options.
We likely wouldn't get a pick for Nicks because picks are determined by an overall loss vs overall gain. I would hope we would be signing some guys this offseason. That theoretical pick wouldn't be until 2015 draft anyway.
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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My view on the GMen is this.

1. I would shut down JPP for the season and let him get right. The back and knee need rest. Already 0-5 and JPP is the most important player other than Eli.

2. Nicks has to be resigned. Cruz and Nicks makes up for a top 4 combo in the league. Add in Randle and it's one hell of a WR core.

3. Oline needs some players but so does the LB Core. Maybe Beason can give you something. But you still need some young legs in there.

4. Do whatever you can to draft Jadeveon Clowney. Teaming him up with a healthy JPP is a nightmare that the league would never want to see. Having those two go after the passer would be amazing and a game changer.
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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The most interesting subplot for the Giants is Eli's quest for 30 picks. I hope he gets it.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to throw 30 picks in a season. You have to have enough talent to avoid being benched despite your insane INT totals and terrible decision making. In fact, it's only been done four times since 1970 (Vinny Testaverde, Fran Tarkenton, Kenny Stabler, and Richard Todd) and not at all since 1988. Favre came close in 2005, but fell short with 29.

I think Eli might be the only guy in the current NFL who could do it. I'll be rooting for him!

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Old 10-10-2013, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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Testaverde threw 35 interceptions one year.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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I think Stafford and Cutler could pull it off one day.
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Old 10-10-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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My view on the GMen is this.

1. I would shut down JPP for the season and let him get right. The back and knee need rest. Already 0-5 and JPP is the most important player other than Eli.

2. Nicks has to be resigned. Cruz and Nicks makes up for a top 4 combo in the league. Add in Randle and it's one hell of a WR core.

3. Oline needs some players but so does the LB Core. Maybe Beason can give you something. But you still need some young legs in there.

4. Do whatever you can to draft Jadeveon Clowney. Teaming him up with a healthy JPP is a nightmare that the league would never want to see. Having those two go after the passer would be amazing and a game changer.
I mean, it depends on where his back really is, but if his back is healthy I'd rather JPP play and regain his confidence in it and get back into shape. Cause that's the biggest issue with back problems, trusting your back again so you can be that dynamic athlete that JPP was. I know it would help our tank, but we've shown we can get it done even when the threat of victory is staring us in the face.

I'm with you on Nicks, he, Cruz and Randle give us something special to rally around if we can keep Eli from getting murdered next year.

LBs could be better but Jacquain is good, Paysinger is meh, Beason looked not totally washed up and we can find another solid guy for cheap, given how badly we need clowney and to fix our interior OL, LB just can't be a priority for us, just like a young penetrating DT and a young outside corner other than Prince are things we could use but can't prioritize given our other needs.
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Old 10-11-2013, 07:37 AM    (permalink
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I think Stafford and Cutler could pull it off one day.
Stafford hasn't thrown more than 17 picks since his rookie year, he's not at Eli levels here.
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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Old 10-11-2013, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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love love love Eli to Houston but it's not even a remote possibility. Might as well say Peyton to Houston.
At the time, the hot rumor was that Peyton was interested, but the Texans weren't: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...uston-20120313

I bet they'd like to take a mulligan on that one.

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Old 10-11-2013, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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Another thing the Gmen need is a simpler offense. One that doesn't require your WRs to be Rhode Scholars.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Another thing the Gmen need is a simpler offense. One that doesn't require your WRs to be Rhode Scholars.
Everyone else got a new OC or system. I am praying for a new system. This system is so inefficient!


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I've got
dorgan : 7:17 am : link : reply
no dog in this Eli vs receiver's debate, but that was one ****** ass route and if you have to assign blame, put that one on the TE.



A seam route is a pretty simple route. There aren't any bends, slow downs, drifts or cuts involved. Run up the seam.
The only adjustment made is made AFTER the ball is in the air. The receiver only reacts to the flight of the ball.

I also don't give two shits who disagrees. I coached for too long to worry about who agrees and who disagrees. My evaluations are made without prejudice. If you want to coach for more than one season, you learn to leave personal likes and dislikes out of the equation of evaluating players and results.

The pick six was a very elementary mis-read of coverage by Randle. Holy ****, I can teach a HS freshman to recognize the difference between man-single-high and cover 3 in one practice session. Randle has some problems reading coverages and it needs to be fixed.
That was a pre-snap read that shouldn't have fooled any pro receiver.
Blame Randle, blame Gilbride, blame the receiver's coach, blame Coughlin. Blame anyone you want, but it needs to be fixed.

1st interception was Eli and I didn't see any indication to think otherwise, nor was I looking for one. If you want to find something, you will, but that's not an effective way to break down film.


Donte Stallworth's (of all people) Tweets should probably be as well:

Quote:
Donte' Stallworth ‏@DonteStallworth
That INT wasn't on Eli. The play was "All Go" from a 2x2 formation. Inside WRs supposed to run up seam/numbers, that's where Eli threw it.

Donte' Stallworth ‏@DonteStallworth
I've ran that play at least 1,001 times. Trust me on this one

Donte' Stallworth ‏@DonteStallworth
LOL y'all don't have to listen to me... any NFL TE/WR can tell you how meticulous coaches are in meetings about getting to that EXACT spot.


I was a TE coach and I agree with anothers coach take above who I talk Xs and Os with. I also have the details of our system or the foundation of it in our own section which I talk about often because this is a reoccuring problem of the system.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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Another thing the Gmen need is a simpler offense. One that doesn't require your WRs to be Rhode Scholars.
We've been begging for this to happen damn near since 2004. Unfortunately, unless the coaching staff changes, we won't see this happen. I'm numb to it now.

But I'm so sick of this option route offense. It's just a joke.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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We've been begging for this to happen damn near since 2004. Unfortunately, unless the coaching staff changes, we won't see this happen. I'm numb to it now.

But I'm so sick of this option route offense. It's just a joke.
Yeah, this has really been the story of Eli's career. I remember that his first few years he already had one of the better deep balls in the NFL so the temptation was to go with a very vertical passing game (I think they were calling this the "East Coast Offense" for about two minutes), and this resulted in him having a lower completion percentage and a higher rate of interceptions. He also took a lot of hits. He's the counter example to the "David Carr wouldn't have sucked if he had taken fewer hits" argument (Carr would have sucked anyway because he couldn't read a defense).

I think Eli's career would look a lot more prolific if he had played for McCarthy or Payton, but he might not have two rings to show for it.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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We've been begging for this to happen damn near since 2004. Unfortunately, unless the coaching staff changes, we won't see this happen. I'm numb to it now.

But I'm so sick of this option route offense. It's just a joke.
Offenses predicated on option routes have a place in the NFL and when done right can be damn near unstoppable but they come with inherent risks.

Take the Pats for example, it is a well publicised story about how their offense is so tough to pick up even for veteran WRs. It is why rookie WRs very seldom make an impact in our scheme.

When the WRs and QB are on the same page then the offense can be high octane regardless of if it is a horizontal based attack (NE) or a vertical based attack (NYG), however the major problem is that you remove some of the best WRs from the equation because they cannot pick up the system.

The Patriots were in position to take Dez Bryant a few years ago and passed. Yes he had character concerns however the Pats have drafted and signed guys with concerns a lot recently. The issue was how effective could he be if he had to diagnose coverages prior to the snap and then after the snap? And could he be counted on to run the correct route, at the correct depth at the correct time?

By running such a complex system you eliminate a large number of potential players from the equation, thus it limits the overall potential talent level.

The issue with the Giants scheme, IMO, is that because it is more of a vertically based offense, when the QB and WR aren't on the same page the ball can be in the air for a longer time than the Pats offense, thus when miscommunications happen it will often lead to INTs rather than incompletions.

I think when it comes to the NFL often coordinators will try to get too complicated than necessary. Eli is a very talented QB. Nicks is a supremely talented WR. Cruz is a devastating slot WR. The Giants have the talent to run a "simplified" offense and still be successful.

Compared to the Pats who, in years like 2006 didn't have the talent to simply line up and beat teams, they needed to be able to run an intricate system to generate yards and points, and then in 2007 the perfect storm happened when they got Welker who is one of the smartest WRs of the last decade, and Moss who, not only was a physical freak with historical talent, but had the football accumen to flourish in that scheme.

Though this year, and maybe even next I do not see a quick fix for the Giants. The troubles with the offensive line seem to suggest the Giants should become more of a quick drop, rhythm passing attack, but that's not Eli's strength. I don't think he has the some success in a pure West Coast system. If the Giants could get a creative coordinator similar to Dirk Koetter in Atlanta who wins with formations and route combos I think it would be a perfect fit.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to throw 30 picks in a season. You have to have enough talent to avoid being benched despite your insane INT totals and terrible decision making. In fact, it's only been done four times since 1970 (Vinny Testaverde, Fran Tarkenton, Kenny Stabler, and Richard Todd) and not at all since 1988. Favre came close in 2005, but fell short with 29.

I think Eli might be the only guy in the current NFL who could do it. I'll be rooting for him!
Eli is already halfway there through 6 games, so clearly he's in a class of his own right now, but if you would have asked before this season I would have put Jay Cutler alongside Eli at the top of this list.

I think those two are the only ones who could realistically do it. I'd put Rivers and Stafford next in line, but there's a huge gap before them.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Offenses predicated on option routes have a place in the NFL and when done right can be damn near unstoppable but they come with inherent risks.

Take the Pats for example, it is a well publicised story about how their offense is so tough to pick up even for veteran WRs. It is why rookie WRs very seldom make an impact in our scheme.

When the WRs and QB are on the same page then the offense can be high octane regardless of if it is a horizontal based attack (NE) or a vertical based attack (NYG), however the major problem is that you remove some of the best WRs from the equation because they cannot pick up the system.

The Patriots were in position to take Dez Bryant a few years ago and passed. Yes he had character concerns however the Pats have drafted and signed guys with concerns a lot recently. The issue was how effective could he be if he had to diagnose coverages prior to the snap and then after the snap? And could he be counted on to run the correct route, at the correct depth at the correct time?

By running such a complex system you eliminate a large number of potential players from the equation, thus it limits the overall potential talent level.

The issue with the Giants scheme, IMO, is that because it is more of a vertically based offense, when the QB and WR aren't on the same page the ball can be in the air for a longer time than the Pats offense, thus when miscommunications happen it will often lead to INTs rather than incompletions.

I think when it comes to the NFL often coordinators will try to get too complicated than necessary. Eli is a very talented QB. Nicks is a supremely talented WR. Cruz is a devastating slot WR. The Giants have the talent to run a "simplified" offense and still be successful.

Compared to the Pats who, in years like 2006 didn't have the talent to simply line up and beat teams, they needed to be able to run an intricate system to generate yards and points, and then in 2007 the perfect storm happened when they got Welker who is one of the smartest WRs of the last decade, and Moss who, not only was a physical freak with historical talent, but had the football accumen to flourish in that scheme.

Though this year, and maybe even next I do not see a quick fix for the Giants. The troubles with the offensive line seem to suggest the Giants should become more of a quick drop, rhythm passing attack, but that's not Eli's strength. I don't think he has the some success in a pure West Coast system. If the Giants could get a creative coordinator similar to Dirk Koetter in Atlanta who wins with formations and route combos I think it would be a perfect fit.
You're preaching to the choire bro. I know this. You know it, the Pats run basically the same offense just horizontal as you stated. But most people aren't going to notice that.

Another key is our offense is dated, we use stale formations, we really haven't adjusted the scheme in like 7 years. We might be one of the few teams that's still running a ton of I-form.

And most importantly, teams have figured out our WR rules. The WRs not only rule an option based on the defense, but also based on how the DB is defending them.

Meaning if he's playing your outside shoulder you run a dig etc, if he's playing your inside shoulder you run an out pattern/back shoulder etc. I don't know the exact rules but it's fairly complex in itself.

So what teams have realized is, they fake out the WR. Basically, if you sell the WR one look you know what pattern he's going to run, so you disguise your look, force him into running a pattern the WR rules dictate, then beat him to the spot. Lots of defenders have been doing this lately. And it's resulted in a lot of INTs bc they're jumping so many routes.

Our WR rules have been figured out and Gilbride has done nothing to adjust them. It's frustrating to watch. What's worse is we're being set up for failure and we all see it happening and nothing is done to adjust anything at all and we just have to live with it.

All I can do is hope that we get a new OC and run a new system next year. We've been begging for a change as Giants fans for ages now and it never has happened but all you can do is hope really.

It's just a shame bc I feel like this offense can be so lethal in a different scheme.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Eli is already halfway there through 6 games, so clearly he's in a class of his own right now, but if you would have asked before this season I would have put Jay Cutler alongside Eli at the top of this list.

I think those two are the only ones who could realistically do it. I'd put Rivers and Stafford next in line, but there's a huge gap before them.
Rivers doesn't have a high career Int %. Your best bet before the season would've probably been Sanchez. Even Stafford isn't that bad, but they ask him to throw a lot.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...erc_active.htm
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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These Giants are actually starting to remind me of the SF Giants. Two great postseason runs, but outside of that an at times lackluster performance in the regular season.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Rivers doesn't have a high career Int %. Your best bet before the season would've probably been Sanchez. Even Stafford isn't that bad, but they ask him to throw a lot.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...erc_active.htm
That's why I said there was a huge gap. I think it would be extremely unlikely for either Rivers or Stafford, but they would still be next in line after Eli and Cutler. Being unbenchable is a bigger factor than interception history, which is why Sanchez isn't a good answer as he would be benched before he could hit 30. Out of the unbenchable QBs following Manning and Cutler, Rivers, Stafford, and Brees (who I initially overlooked, I'd put him in the second group with Rivers and Stafford), are the only ones who have thrown at least 20 INTs in a season (not counting young Peyton; he's way past that).

30 interceptions is hard to do; it's been 25 years since it last happened. Eli has a good chance to do it this year, but the others have maybe a 1% chance of ever doing it. But my top five most likely would be Eli, Cutler, Brees, Stafford, Rivers.
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