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Old 10-15-2013, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
the ball was over his head and he had to essentially make a diving catch. it was a horrible throw. does a star receiver catch it? probably. does that make it not almost entirely on brady for badly overthrowing a wide open receiver to win the game? only if you're a patriots fan, apparently.
In opposition to someone who despises the Patriots.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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there is no planet on which that was a decent throw. it was overthrown, and, i apparently forgot, behind him to begin with.

clutchest qb of all-time.



your bias is way more meaningful than mine is, or something.

I don't care about the Pats at all. That was not a good throw. He made his receiver turn almost completely around while turning back to even make a play on the ball. Wes getting his hands on the ball doesn't make it a good throw.

Should Welker have caught it? Yes - but I say that as someone who believes that EVERY ball that a receiver manages to get his hands on should be a catch. If he had caught it we wouldn't have said "good throw Brady". It would have been EXCELLENT catch Welker to adjust to an errant Brady pass.
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Old 10-15-2013, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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there is no planet on which that was a decent throw. it was overthrown, and, i apparently forgot, behind him to begin with.

clutchest qb of all-time.



your bias is way more meaningful than mine is, or something.
I take no issue to subjecting Brady to criticism on that throw, but your assertion it was a bad throw and it was all on him I just don't buy. It hit him square in the hands, and it was a lob, it wasn't as though he zipped it into a tight window at a million miles an hour.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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Belichick doesn't run the ******* offense. 3 different coordinators have run 5-7 completely different offenses over the years. The offense has evolved from the coordinators and Tom Brady integrating elements of spread option attacks learned directly from Urban Myer and Chip Kelly.
Oh, please. The Patriots have added some wrinkles to their offense over the years, but they've been operating on the same, high percentage principles since the beginning, when journeyman-caliber Troy Brown was catching 100 passes for them.

It's funny how when it's the 49ers, no matter who the OC was (Walsh, Holmgren, Shanahan, Trestman, Mornhinweg, Knapp), "they were running the WCOOoooooo," but when it's the Patriots, they're "running 5-7 completely different offenses."

Belichick has a background on both sides of the ball. He learned his passing game concepts from Ken Shipp.

You want to know a little secret? The reason the Patriots are so much better on defense this year is Belichick has rededicated his efforts to running the defense. The offense has suffered as a result. In the past, it was the other wary around - Belichick's focus on the offense took him away from the defense, which is the main reason it declined from the 2003/2004 period.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
Not putting up the same numbers???

Welker's average stat line for the Pats was 112 catches for 1243 yards and 6 TDs.

This year he is on course for 99 catches for 1008 yards and 21 TDs.

Are you ******* kidding me? You're telling me he isn't putting up as good numbers because of 13 catches and 235 yards, despite the fact that through 6 games this year he is one TD short of his career best for a season?
Welker had 118 catches for 1354 yards and 6 TDs last year.

This year, he's on pace for 99 catches for 1008 yards and 21 TDs.

Those are in no way the same numbers. This year, his production is way down, apart from getting touchdowns that are mostly the equivalent to a running back punching it in from inside the 5 on a high-powered offense. 6 of his 8 TDs have been for 6 yards or less. And none of them have been on fade routes or Cris Carter-type toe-dragging highlight reel red zone receptions. They've been off dinky little bunch formation picks/decoy designs.

And aside from that, the fact that Welker can still be a pretty productive player when he's playing with Peyton Manning...so what?

I predicted on here that Welker would get something like 80-something catches for 900-something yards, noting that the main reason for the decline would be that Manning wouldn't feed him the way Brady did, because Manning likes to go to the outside targets a lot more. I don't think I've been so far off yet...I just didn't anticipate they'd be designing crap for him so much when they got inside the 5, and that they'd be getting there like 8 times per game.

There's never been any question that Manning is capable of doing with Welker what Brady did.

According to what I remember off the top of my head, Welker has caught in the neighborhood of 15 WR screens this year, too.
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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1. He didn't throw 50 TD's until Randy Moss and Welker got there. Before that, he never cracked 30. Peyton had the record in 15 games. And, despite the fact that they ran up the score in a lot of their games, it took 16 games for Tom to break Peyton's record.

2. I know that Bill isn't the offensive coordinator, and I know he doesn't call the plays, but he is the head coach, and he is the one constant in Tom's 12 years there. He has to have a big say in how the offense is structured. He was a defensive coordinator, so he should have some good ideas on how to attack a defense.
Okay. Joe Montana didn't throw for over 30 touchdowns until Jerry Rice and John Taylor were on the team. Didn't mean he wasn't one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL before then. Should we detract from what Steve Young accomplished in his career because he played with Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones the whole time and sucked with the Buccaneers? Are we going to say Fouts shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame because he threw to Kellen Winslow? Yeah, Brady didn't throw for a zillion yards and touchdowns with Deion Branch, David Patten, and David Givens. Big whoop.

And what does Peyton Manning have to do with Brady throwing 50 touchdowns? I wasn't comparing how Brady accomplished the record to how Peyton got it. I wasn't even talking about the record and how it stacks up to anything else. I said he threw 50 touchdowns in a season. Regardless of how it was accomplished, 50 touchdowns is 50 touchdowns end of story.

Perhaps Belicheck does have a say in it. But perhaps he's just letting the people he hired do what they were hired to do in the first place. There isn't any evidence of Bill micromanaging the team, let alone the offensive concepts. If that was the case why not just run the offense himself?

Again, what is your point? That Tom Brady is a fraud and that for the past decade he's been deceiving teams with his arm? Seriously what are you trying to push here?
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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I don't care about the Pats at all. That was not a good throw. He made his receiver turn almost completely around while turning back to even make a play on the ball. Wes getting his hands on the ball doesn't make it a good throw.

Should Welker have caught it? Yes - but I say that as someone who believes that EVERY ball that a receiver manages to get his hands on should be a catch. If he had caught it we wouldn't have said "good throw Brady". It would have been EXCELLENT catch Welker to adjust to an errant Brady pass.
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i'm certainly being ever so slightly hyperbolic. as a former receiver, i'm of the belief that any ball that hits your hands should be caught. i just take issue with the glossing over of the throw. a top 5 qb of all time should be hitting welker in the numbers on that pass, especially with a wide open throwing lane and no pressure. calvin johnson might catch that, but john elway makes it stick to his stomach, and joe montana throws a touchdown. *shrug*

either way, i'd rather argue about this than tony romo.
What are we talking about here? That's a routine catch in the NFL. He's throwing to that side to help Welker avoid getting smashed by Kenny Phillips. There was no dive there. Wes simply turned and jumped up for it. He didn't even need to fully extend to get it. On a difficulty meter of 1-10 that catch was like a 6, and that high only because Welker's a hobbit.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Oh, please. The Patriots have added some wrinkles to their offense over the years, but they've been operating on the same, high percentage principles since the beginning, when journeyman-caliber Troy Brown was catching 100 passes for them.
Holy crap! You're telling me that a team has a possession receiver? **** man, you got me. I had no idea.

The WCO has pretty much been the WCO under all of those Walsh disciples you rattled off (why didn't you bring in non-Walsh WCOers into that? Because you don't know wtf you're talking about.

The Patriots haven't run the same offense for the last 13 years... There's a huge difference between Weis, early McDaniels, late 00's McDaniels, O'Brien, and current McDaniels. Huge differences. You wouldn't know because you don't know ****.

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You want to know a little secret? The reason the Patriots are so much better on defense this year is Belichick has rededicated his efforts to running the defense. The offense has suffered as a result. In the past, it was the other wary around - Belichick's focus on the offense took him away from the defense, which is the main reason it declined from the 2003/2004 period.
They're doing better on defense because they've successfully acquired more talent on that side of the ball recently. They're doing worse on offense because they lost their Top 5 receivers and don't have a TE. Their two main receivers are developmental-type rookies. McDaniels runs that offense. McDaniels is the one who implemented elements of Urban Myer's spread offense and it was McDaniels who implemented elements of Chip Kelly's spread offense last year. Of course Belichick has his hand in everything. He's the head coach and runs the team, but they aren't struggling on offense because Belichick isn't giving them enough attention. There's no "little secret". Can you possibly be any more daft?
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
there is no planet on which that was a decent throw. it was overthrown, and, i apparently forgot, behind him to begin with.

clutchest qb of all-time.



your bias is way more meaningful than mine is, or something.
It was supposed to be on his back shoulder. Welker flailed, it hit him right in the hands anyway, and he dropped it. It was a high arc because he was dropping it into triple coverage and over a couple defenders.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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seriously? he turned welker around, forced welker to leave his feet. it had nothing to do with phillips. hit welker in the numbers and he can get down in plenty of time. did you even like, watch the pass, or is this another assumption that everything brady does is perfection?



that's an outright falsehood. please watch the play you linked. there was absolutely no one in between brady and welker. it was a lob because tom made a ****** throw. a throw on a line or in welker's numbers and the game is over.
A throw on a line had a good chance to get picked. They were in a zone and Welker got between 3 defensive backs.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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you have absolutely not even watched the video you linked. further conversation is pointless. no one on the defense had any remote chance of doing anything with a good pass.
3

Who hasn't watched it?
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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I didn't read one post on this thing. But my view on this is. It's what you do when in matters most. Brady like this last Sunday threw a TD on the money. Tony most likely would have tossed another pick.

I will tell you this. The day Tony gets past this and comes up with the big game the big drive without the big mistake. I think the magic happens. And he doesn't look back. Like Steve Young in the SB getting the Monkey off his back.


But as of right now. Tony Romo is the sammy sosa of Football ( No PED's ). Sosa would always hit that homerun in the bottom of the 9th down 8-4 and it would be a solo shot. But in the 3rd when it was still a game he'd strikeout with runners on 2nd and 3rd.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
Holy crap! You're telling me that a team has a possession receiver? **** man, you got me. I had no idea.
Troy Brown was running cheap, underneath routes the same way Welker was. The Patriots have always been about spreading it out and going underneath.


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The WCO has pretty much been the WCO under all of those Walsh disciples you rattled off (why didn't you bring in non-Walsh WCOers into that? Because you don't know wtf you're talking about.
Uh, try again. Shanahan was not a Walsh disciple. Nor was Trestman. They were in no way connected to the Walsh tree until they took over as 49ers OC, hired from other organizations with unrelated coaching staffs.

The 49ers added new wrinkles from 1992-1996, but they didn't truly deviate from the general idea until Mariucci took over (and he was from the tree, having coached in GB under Holmgren). Mariucci drifted towards operating out of the I-formation and using many more 3 WR sets, which basically means it's no longer any variation of the WCO. He did end up reinstalling the pro set in 2001, but at that point the league had moved on so much that it was just superficial.


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The Patriots haven't run the same offense for the last 13 years... There's a huge difference between Weis, early McDaniels, late 00's McDaniels, O'Brien, and current McDaniels. Huge differences. You wouldn't know because you don't know ****.
No, there isn't. Charlie Weis ran a spread out, obsessively conservative/short passing game with similar route combinations. Easy completions for Brady...bums like Troy Brown "excelled" in it. They used to run more...that's the biggest shift. They didn't fall in love with pass-first until Belichick started his stat analysis, where he learned, among other things, that teams run too much and punt too much.

It's hilarious. Josh McDaniels had been in New England since 2001, where he was basically bringing Belichick coffee, fresh out of college, but his offense was "completely different" than Charlie Weis's. But the 49ers hire guys who have no connection to Walsh or anyone who worked for Walsh whatsoever, and you think it was the same offense.

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They're doing better on defense because they've successfully acquired more talent on that side of the ball recently. They're doing worse on offense because they lost their Top 5 receivers and don't have a TE. Their two main receivers are developmental-type rookies. McDaniels runs that offense. McDaniels is the one who implemented elements of Urban Myer's spread offense and it was McDaniels who implemented elements of Chip Kelly's spread offense last year. Of course Belichick has his hand in everything. He's the head coach and runs the team, but they aren't struggling on offense because Belichick isn't giving them enough attention. There's no "little secret". Can you possibly be any more daft?
What talent? If anything, they're worse personnel-wise on defense with all the injuries they've suffered.

When did McDaniels learn all of these elements? When he was bringing Belichick his coffee, or when he was a graduate assistant at Michigan State under Nick Saban?

Yet another variation of the hilariously naive, "Just copy the system from afar, bro" argument. Doesn't. Work. That. Way.

And of course, it couldn't possibly be that Belichick played a huge role in adding elements to the offense. I mean, what would a man with all those years of coaching experience, including a year as a receivers coach under passing game innovator Ken Shipp, know about offense? All these stories about Belichick turning his attention towards the Patriots' offense must have just been bogus.

And is it any coincidence that the last two people I've seen call someone else "daft" were complete idiots? The last person was on the Breaking Bad IMDB board, insisting to everyone that Lydia must have survived the "ricin" poisoning because ricin really isn't that dangerous when ingested.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:39 AM    (permalink
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seriously? he turned welker around, forced welker to leave his feet. it had nothing to do with phillips. hit welker in the numbers and he can get down in plenty of time. did you even like, watch the pass, or is this another assumption that everything brady does is perfection?



that's an outright falsehood. please watch the play you linked. there was absolutely no one in between brady and welker. it was a lob because tom made a ****** throw. a throw on a line or in welker's numbers and the game is over.
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you have absolutely not even watched the video you linked. further conversation is pointless. no one on the defense had any remote chance of doing anything with a good pass.
I'm not with you on this. It's not a perfect throw but it's till a good pass. If it's on a line, Webster might have an op to undercut and pick it. He hedges and wouldn't have been there but Brady doesn't know that when he lets it go. Rolle also ends up drifting off but is underneath Wes when he lets it go. The lob was safer. He's throwing it over possible undercutting DBs and away from the approaching S. He's throwing to the open area. He and Welker had done it countless times.

...Wes sure acted as if it was entirely on him.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:29 AM    (permalink
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Okay. Joe Montana didn't throw for over 30 touchdowns until Jerry Rice and John Taylor were on the team. Didn't mean he wasn't one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL before then. Should we detract from what Steve Young accomplished in his career because he played with Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones the whole time and sucked with the Buccaneers? Are we going to say Fouts shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame because he threw to Kellen Winslow? Yeah, Brady didn't throw for a zillion yards and touchdowns with Deion Branch, David Patten, and David Givens. Big whoop.

And what does Peyton Manning have to do with Brady throwing 50 touchdowns? I wasn't comparing how Brady accomplished the record to how Peyton got it. I wasn't even talking about the record and how it stacks up to anything else. I said he threw 50 touchdowns in a season. Regardless of how it was accomplished, 50 touchdowns is 50 touchdowns end of story.

Perhaps Belicheck does have a say in it. But perhaps he's just letting the people he hired do what they were hired to do in the first place. There isn't any evidence of Bill micromanaging the team, let alone the offensive concepts. If that was the case why not just run the offense himself?

Again, what is your point? That Tom Brady is a fraud and that for the past decade he's been deceiving teams with his arm? Seriously what are you trying to push here?
1. If the Patriots were communicating on another frequency (unavailable to the NFL) to steal the defense's signals, and then send them into Brady's helmet right up until the ball was snapped, then yes, he is a huge fraud.

2. Fouts, Montana, and Young have one man in common: Bill Walsh. Without him, their careers would have been a lot worse.

Fouts credits Walsh with rebuilding his game from the ground up when Bill was a Charger assistant in 1976.

As for Montana and Young, they benefitted greatly from the 49er coaching and the WCO that they played in.

In the early-80's, teams were geared to stop the majority (teams with strong running games and downfield passing games).

With SF, though, you had a team that will take what the defense gives them, and will use the short passing game as the running game.

Defenses didn't evolve for the longest time (well into the 90's), and it benefitted the 49ers and those two QB's greatly because teams kept throwing the same zone defenses at them for the most part.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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Of the 3 separate topics being discussed right now, I cannot decide which one is the worst.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:39 AM    (permalink
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Poor Ken Anderson. He doesn't even get any recognition from the "Bill Walsh made QBs look better than they were" crowd.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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I hate when people talk about Joe Montana and not realize that he won 2 SBs before Jerry Rice was ever drafted.

But statz. Thanks fantasy football.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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I just want to be a small part of this thread.











Thank you.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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I hate when people talk about Joe Montana and not realize that he won 2 SBs before Jerry Rice was ever drafted.

But statz. Thanks fantasy football.
And Rice won a Super Bowl without him. So did the 49ers.

Also, Steve Bono won six straight games for the 49ers in 1991 at the end of the year to almost lead them to the postseason.

With those facts, maybe the system is more important than the players.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Uhhhh.....NO
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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And of course, it couldn't possibly be that Belichick played a huge role in adding elements to the offense. I mean, what would a man with all those years of coaching experience, including a year as a receivers coach under passing game innovator Ken Shipp, know about offense? All these stories about Belichick turning his attention towards the Patriots' offense must have just been bogus.
I just wanted to talk about Ken Shipp, who was the OC for the Lions in 1976, while Bill Belichick was an assistant special teams coach. They must have had a lot to talk about.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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1. If the Patriots were communicating on another frequency (unavailable to the NFL) to steal the defense's signals, and then send them into Brady's helmet right up until the ball was snapped, then yes, he is a huge fraud.

2. Fouts, Montana, and Young have one man in common: Bill Walsh. Without him, their careers would have been a lot worse.

Fouts credits Walsh with rebuilding his game from the ground up when Bill was a Charger assistant in 1976.

As for Montana and Young, they benefitted greatly from the 49er coaching and the WCO that they played in.

In the early-80's, teams were geared to stop the majority (teams with strong running games and downfield passing games).

With SF, though, you had a team that will take what the defense gives them, and will use the short passing game as the running game.

Defenses didn't evolve for the longest time (well into the 90's), and it benefitted the 49ers and those two QB's greatly because teams kept throwing the same zone defenses at them for the most part.
Brady still has to make the throws with his arm. He did it after the spygate fiasco. And he did it before. And if it were that easy the Patriots would have never lost a game. Brady would never have bad games. I mean really, that's your crackback?

The reason I was talking about all of those other players had to do with the 30 touchdown mark you were pounding the table about. As if it was some magic number. Yeah Joe Montana had Bill Walsh help his career. Still didn't throw for 30 touchdowns until Rice was on the team. Again, that doesn't mean he wasn't a good player beforehand. John Elway and Troy Aikman never threw for 30 touchdowns in their career in a single season. Didn't mean they weren't good players beforehand. Hell, Scott Mitchell threw for over 30 touchdowns one year. Does that mean he was a good player? Anyways, the notion that Brady isn't that great because he didn't throw for over 30 touchdowns until Moss and Welker got there is absurd.

SF was innovative on offense, but it wasn't like they couldn't be shutdown ever. They also had good players. That is the reason why they were successful. All the innovative concepts and coaching in the world are nil if you don't have the players to execute them. You need talent. The Giants did a good job of limiting the 49ers in the mid to late eighties once their defense really started clicking. It wasn't defenses not getting with the program as much as it was the 49ers just having good players.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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And Rice won a Super Bowl without him. So did the 49ers.

Also, Steve Bono won six straight games for the 49ers in 1991 at the end of the year to almost lead them to the postseason.

With those facts, maybe the system is more important than the players.
And Joe Montana went to Kansas City at the age of 37 and still played well. And Steve Bono also went to Kansas City and didn't play well. Yeah systems help, but talent > system. That's why Matt Cavanaugh, Elvis Grbac, or Jeff Kemp were backups and didn't always played well even during their stints as 49ers. Especially Grbac.
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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And Joe Montana went to Kansas City at the age of 37 and still played well. And Steve Bono also went to Kansas City and didn't play well. Yeah systems help, but talent > system. That's why Matt Cavanaugh, Elvis Grbac, or Jeff Kemp were backups and didn't always played well even during their stints as 49ers. Especially Grbac.
Bono made the Pro Bowl in 1995. He QB'ed them to a 13-3 season, which Joe didn't do.

Quote:
Brady still has to make the throws with his arm. He did it after the spygate fiasco. And he did it before. And if it were that easy the Patriots would have never lost a game. Brady would never have bad games. I mean really, that's your crackback?
I think that it's irrelevant that they didn't win every game in the early and mid-2000's. However, if they did do what I was talking about, it made them much better than they would have been otherwise because their talent level was average back then.

They didn't win every game, but the cheating (if done) may have got this mediocre team three Super Bowl wins, an 18-game regular season winning streak, two 14-win seasons, one 12-win season, and five division titles in the seasons leading up to 2007.

Quote:
The reason I was talking about all of those other players had to do with the 30 touchdown mark you were pounding the table about. As if it was some magic number. Yeah Joe Montana had Bill Walsh help his career. Still didn't throw for 30 touchdowns until Rice was on the team. Again, that doesn't mean he wasn't a good player beforehand. John Elway and Troy Aikman never threw for 30 touchdowns in their career in a single season.
I didn't say that 30 TD's was some magic number. I only point out the fact that he didn't do that until Moss and Welker got there to make a point: That Brady gets a lot more credit than he deserves, as do a lot of QB's. Moss should have been MVP in 2007. He caught about half of Tom's TD passes that year.

Also, I know that Elway and Aikman never threw for 30 TD's. And, I know that doesn't mean they sucked (although, on this one forum that I go on that I was trying to tell Jordan Taber about in the PM, people like to rip Elway a new one because of his stats under Reeves). Aikman was in more of a running offense, and for the first ten years of his career, Elway played for a rigid coach who felt that the players should fit to his scheme, not the other way around.

A lot of people know that John and Dan didn't get along, but Elway wasn't the only player that didn't like Dan. In 1984, Louis Wright told Dan that he felt that he was an ogre, and that he needed to relax the practices a bit. After that, they responded with a long winning streak.

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