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Old 10-16-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53 View Post
Bono made the Pro Bowl in 1995. He QB'ed them to a 13-3 season, which Joe didn't do.
Okay? And Joe guided the Chiefs to the AFC Championship. Which Bono didn't do. One stellar year isn't indicative of being a good player. Scott Mitchell did the same thing.

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I think that it's irrelevant that they didn't win every game in the early and mid-2000's. However, if they did do what I was talking about, it made them much better than they would have been otherwise because their talent level was average back then.

They didn't win every game, but the cheating (if done) may have got this mediocre team three Super Bowl wins, an 18-game regular season winning streak, two 14-win seasons, one 12-win season, and five division titles in the seasons leading up to 2007.
But if the Patriots had an advantage in profiling teams why didn't they win every game? It's completely relevant. I mean you brought that aspect of the Patriots organization in conjunction to the table. You can't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit your agenda. You have to look at both sides of the coin. And once the story leaked why did Brady continue to have success? Why is he still playing relatively well with scrub receivers?

There is no evidence at all in terms of how much cheating was done, how long it was done, how many teams it may or may not have been geared towards, and what effect it even ultimately had on the outcome. All of that is pure conjecture.

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I didn't say that 30 TD's was some magic number. I only point out the fact that he didn't do that until Moss and Welker got there to make a point: That Brady gets a lot more credit than he deserves, as do a lot of QB's. Moss should have been MVP in 2007. He caught about half of Tom's TD passes that year.
But why even bring up 30 touchdowns? Why not 32 touchdowns? Why not 29 touchdowns? And yeah, he didn't put up those numbers until he had Welker and Moss instead of Deion Branch, David Givens, and David Patten. Surprising. Just as shocking that Montana didn't put up more touchdowns until Rice and Taylor were on the 49ers. Better players yields better results.

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Also, I know that Elway and Aikman never threw for 30 TD's. And, I know that doesn't mean they sucked (although, on this one forum that I go on that I was trying to tell Jordan Taber about in the PM, people like to rip Elway a new one because of his stats under Reeves). Aikman was in more of a running offense, and for the first ten years of his career, Elway played for a rigid coach who felt that the players should fit to his scheme, not the other way around.
Okay then. More to the point that putting up huge numbers doesn't mean you are necessarily the better than someone else that may not put up huge numbers. Some of it relies on scheme and surrounding personnel other than just pure ability. So using an arbitrary benchmark for touchdowns in a season that isn't achieved usually doesn't tell the entire story. Especially when it comes to a player regarded by most people to be one of the better quarterbacks of his era. Maybe the best.


Hey you can have an opinion of Brady being overrated or a fraud. I think it's lunacy, but you're allowed to have it.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
What technical ability? He has poor hands and can't separate against quality corners in man coverage. Orlando Scandrick completely blanketed him all game two weeks ago, and he's merely a good nickel. Carlos Rogers completely blanketed him last year. Put a decent corner on him in man coverage, and watch how little he does.

Welker only produces on quick hitches, screens, and drags/slants against zone coverage/linebackers.
I underlined the most important part. The guy consistently makes offense happen. If it was so easy everyone would have a guy who can kill on third down and in the red zone. Every advanced metric shows how valuable Walker is to an offense. Look what happened to the Patriots without him. If it was so easy to eliminate Walker he wouldn't be putting up 1000's of yard, tons of TDs and loads of first downs.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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There is no such thing as easy yards or touchdowns in the NFL. Welker has produced when there are more dominant targets, and Welker has produced when he is the best option... He's not a dominant, game breaking downfield threat, but he's a really freaking good player.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Here we go again.
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Old 10-16-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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I just wanted to talk about Ken Shipp, who was the OC for the Lions in 1976, while Bill Belichick was an assistant special teams coach. They must have had a lot to talk about.
Wikipedia's years are wrong on there, for whatever reason.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/previe...ory?id=4443119

Unless you think Belichick and Shipp were just making all this up.
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
I underlined the most important part. The guy consistently makes offense happen.
No. The system he's in consistently makes offense happen.

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If it was so easy everyone would have a guy who can kill on third down
Again with the "3rd down" garbage. Welker is not a "3rd down receiver." Welker catches the vast majority of his passes on the first 2 downs.

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and in the red zone.
You get really close to the endzone a lot and focus on one guy a lot down there, he's going to get a lot of TDs.

Look at Derek Loville for the 49ers in 1995. 13 TDs. Knowshon Moreno is going to score a ton of TDs this year. Not because he's a great RB, but because he's in a high-octane offense and will get a lot of carries inside the 5. Likewise, Welker will probably have 20 TDs receiving this year (which is hilarious) because every time they get inside the 10, they spread it out and design decoy routes to get him open in short areas.

Welker never even reached double digit TDs in New England. Why do you think that is? Why is he doing it in Denver? That right there says something important about the system a player is in.

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Every advanced metric shows how valuable Walker is to an offense.
Like what? DVOA is an utterly meaningless statistic that placed Austin Collie at the top of all receivers a few years ago. It's a joke that only imbeciles on the internet think means anything. Stats in a vacuum in football tell you absolutely nothing.

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Look what happened to the Patriots without him.
Without him, and Gronkowski, and Hernandez. Without Welker, they have a guy named Julian Edelman who is matching what his "production" was with them. Without Gronkowski and Hernandez, though, they have virtually zero production out of the tight ends. Gronkowski was basically their go-to guy in the passing game, and now their tight end has 8 catches for 95 yards through 6 games.

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If it was so easy to eliminate Walker he wouldn't be putting up 1000's of yard, tons of TDs and loads of first downs.
Teams didn't usually try to eliminate him. If they did, Dallas wouldn't be putting Ernie Sims (a linebacker...who initially was showing blitz) on him in a crucial situation when Denver went 4 wides. Check out 2:35 - http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201310...ghts&tab=recap

I'd suggest actually watching some Patriots games and focusing on Welker before the snap. Watch how many times defenses don't even put a corner on him.

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Old 10-16-2013, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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There is no such thing as easy yards or touchdowns in the NFL.
LMAO!

Translation: "I know absolutely nothing about football whatsoever."

Right. No such thing as easy yards. It's not like teams tend to give up the underneath areas or anything. Not like there's such a thing as blown coverages, or effective decoy routes that leave a benefiting receiver wide open.

Not like catching a screen pass and having blockers out in front makes for easy yardage or anything.

Time to pull your head out of your ass and join the real world.

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Welker has produced when there are more dominant targets, and Welker has produced when he is the best option... He's not a dominant, game breaking downfield threat, but he's a really freaking good player.
He's never been the best option. He went from playing with Randy Moss to playing with Rob Gronkowski, to playing with Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker and Julius Thomas.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Tom Brady has more Super Bowl wins than Romo has playoff wins.


How this thread got past this post...... is beyond me. And all logic. Which actually explains why it went on this far.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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... you can't be serious. you mean that he catches more passes on first and second down than on third down (the majority, apparently)? i, er, wonder why that might be.

this, kids, is why trolling by statistical manipulation is stupid. eventually, you get caught trying to be cute.

Precisely, Watson.


Wayne Gretzky scored more than 25 times as many goals in regulation time as he did in overtime. Therefore, Gretzky sucks.


Gotta love the logic vacuums'.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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You just called njx watson.

That's funny.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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You just called njx watson.

That's funny.


I hope that's not against board rules. I'd investigate, but I'm no Watson.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Screw Romo he is the most overrated QB and on the most overrated team in history. People call him great but he's never won a play off game nor has he ever been or won a super bowl he's just a stat guy.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Screw Romo he is the most overrated QB and on the most overrated team in history. People call him great but he's never won a play off game nor has he ever been or won a super bowl he's just a stat guy.
He's won one playoff game.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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... you can't be serious. you mean that he catches more passes on first and second down than on third down (the majority, apparently)? i, er, wonder why that might be.

this, kids, is why trolling by statistical manipulation is stupid. eventually, you get caught trying to be cute.
Wait so more catches come 66% of the time? Call CNN.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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I love this thread. I hope we keep him forever.

Wes Welker gets the only yards that don't contribute to moving the ball down field or getting first downs, lol.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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But if the Patriots had an advantage in profiling teams why didn't they win every game? It's completely relevant. I mean you brought that aspect of the Patriots organization in conjunction to the table. You can't just dismiss it because it doesn't fit your agenda. You have to look at both sides of the coin. And once the story leaked why did Brady continue to have success? Why is he still playing relatively well with scrub receivers?

There is no evidence at all in terms of how much cheating was done, how long it was done, how many teams it may or may not have been geared towards, and what effect it even ultimately had on the outcome. All of that is pure conjecture.
No, it's not relevant that they went undefeated, as long as the Pats achieved much better than they would have otherwise, which they did.

And, if there's no evidence of cheating, why did Roger the Dodger destroy the tapes?

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Hey you can have an opinion of Brady being overrated or a fraud. I think it's lunacy, but you're allowed to have it.
If the Pats cheated, it's not crazy. And, I tend to believe they did, and it was covered up. There isn't 100% evidence of cheating, but there's a lot of smoke. And where there's smoke, there's fire.

See, Brady is a preferred player by the league. They (along with the media) build this guy up so high, and it makes people believe that he is so great, when, in reality, he is not.

For example, why didn't anyone talk about his pick on Sunday? People talk about the game-winning TD. If that was Romo, they would dwell on the pick more if he did the same thing Brady did.

On that final drive, Rob Ryan only rushed four men, not the five that he was rushing most of the day. No wonder why Brady had the game-winning drive.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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See, Brady is a preferred player by the league. They (along with the media) build this guy up so high, and it makes people believe that he is so great, when, in reality, he is not.

For example, why didn't anyone talk about his pick on Sunday? People talk about the game-winning TD. If that was Romo, they would dwell on the pick more if he did the same thing Brady did.

On that final drive, Rob Ryan only rushed four men, not the five that he was rushing most of the day. No wonder why Brady had the game-winning drive.
Well he is a QB so of course he's built up, he's earned it. If you honestly believe in your heart that he's not a great QB, you're a fool. nothing more to say about that.

Nobody is talking about his pick on Sunday because he tossed the game winning TD.. why would anyone talk about the pick more than the TD?

in Tony Romo's case, when was the last time you saw him throw a clutch game winning TD following a, seemingly, game losing INT? his negatives in the clutch moments are shown more because that's what he is famous for.

Are you faulting him for taking advantage of Rob Ryan's mistake?
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 7DnBrnc53 View Post
If the Pats cheated, it's not crazy. And, I tend to believe they did, and it was covered up. There isn't 100% evidence of cheating, but there's a lot of smoke. And where there's smoke, there's fire.
I don't think you know how evidence works.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Like, I love a good trolling, but this thread is just so lazy that it's not even worth reading through the innanity because you obviously don't actually believe it, or have stopped taking your medication. Either way it's pointless.
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We've already seen that your love is only capable of destroying.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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And, I tend to believe they did, and it was covered up. There isn't 100% evidence of cheating, but there's a lot of smoke. And where there's smoke, there's fire.

See, Brady is a preferred player by the league. They (along with the media) build this guy up so high, and it makes people believe that he is so great, when, in reality, he is not.
I love that the same guy that was attacking people for not using "facts" and making up "claims" also says this stuff.

Tom Brady is a top 5 QB of all-time and Tony Romo is not. You said that, and it's true.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Tony Romo is better in fantasy football. NUFCED.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cgf (Rosebud) View Post
Like, I love a good trolling, but this thread is just so lazy that it's not even worth reading through the innanity because you obviously don't actually believe it, or have stopped taking your medication. Either way it's pointless.
My thoughts exactly. Burn it to the ground.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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I've always been a Manning>Brady guy, but seriously, when Brady hangs it up...

How many guys are going to have as much team success as the QB for a team? How many will have more records and individually dominant seasons, etc?

Dudes resume' is going to be as strong as a football player can really have.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:55 AM    (permalink
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... you can't be serious. you mean that he catches more passes on first and second down than on third down (the majority, apparently)? i, er, wonder why that might be.

this, kids, is why trolling by statistical manipulation is stupid. eventually, you get caught trying to be cute.
When you have no argument whatsoever but don't like what the poster is saying, focus on semantics. It's a broken record with you.

Yes, he catches more passes on first and second down than third down. He also catches more on each individual down than on 3rd down, and has one of the lower ratios of catches on 3rd down in comparison to other wide receivers in the NFL. Ergo, not a "third down receiver." There's no reason whatsoever to use the words "Welker" and "third down" in the same sentence.

Wes Welker is the guy you throw a screen pass to on an earlier down.

Michael Crabtree had the same number of 3rd down receptions as Welker last year. We don't hear anyone talking about him as a "3rd down receiver." You want to know why not? Because it doesn't serve anyone's agenda.

And I'm not trolling, I'm just starting threads on here actually worth starting. You know, instead of the tedious "anti-jinx" posts where you talk about how your pwecious Broncos are going to loooooose because their defense is the worst evarr. Oh, your posts are so interesting...totally worth sharing. What's next, a thread about how water is wet?

Idiot.
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