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Old 11-26-2013, 10:10 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Talking the draft and free agency is progressive. Constantly talking about how the scheme sucks isn't.

It's here to stay. We all know it sucks. We just have to deal with it and draft for it. That's all.

I wish it was gone but it won't be.

More importantly, we can't have Beatty at LT next year. He was a contract year player who cashed in. He sucks. He's from UConn, we shouldve saw this coming. ******* UConn.

I want him at RT and we need to either draft a LT in round 1 or get one in FA. Bc we can't have our LT get beat like a drum on every play anymore. Unacceptable.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Talking the draft and free agency is progressive. Constantly talking about how the scheme sucks isn't.

It's here to stay. We all know it sucks. We just have to deal with it and draft for it. That's all.

I wish it was gone but it won't be.

More importantly, we can't have Beatty at LT next year. He was a contract year player who cashed in. He sucks. He's from UConn, we shouldve saw this coming. ******* UConn.

I want him at RT and we need to either draft a LT in round 1 or get one in FA. Bc we can't have our LT get beat like a drum on every play anymore. Unacceptable.

We can't have a lot of people on the OL to tell you the truth. Pugh is a keeper and everyone else can lose their job. I don't want Beatty at RT. Pugh has done well there. I am not moving him for Beatty. Bring or draft a LT and have him compete with Beatty.

We need an X. RR is a good Z but I am not sure I want him as an X. Moreover, I want a speed WR. I am tired of the technitian type of WRs who have good hands and body control. That's fine but I want a burner. Flat out speed type WR. Sammy Watkins I am starting to like. We have no speed on offense at all. Wilson is a question mark.

Cruz is game speed fast. Who else? Jacobs? Brown? JJ can't run the right route. RR isn't a burner, and all our TEs stink. Who is that, oh god, watch out because he has sick speed? So I want us to get a fast WR as our X.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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We can't have a lot of people on the OL to tell you the truth. Pugh is a keeper and everyone else can lose their job. I don't want Beatty at RT. Pugh has done well there. I am not moving him for Beatty. Bring or draft a LT and have him compete with Beatty.

We need an X. RR is a good Z but I am not sure I want him as an X. Moreover, I want a speed WR. I am tired of the technitian type of WRs who have good hands and body control. That's fine but I want a burner. Flat out speed type WR. Sammy Watkins I am starting to like. We have no speed on offense at all. Wilson is a question mark.

Cruz is game speed fast. Who else? Jacobs? Brown? JJ can't run the right route. RR isn't a burner, and all our TEs stink. Who is that, oh god, watch out because he has sick speed? So I want us to get a fast WR as our X.
We can't though bro. We just extended him. We have to find a spot for him. He's done well at RT in the past, just throw him in there and salvage him as best we can. Pugh is a good RT, I think he can be a great LG. Or RG. Either or I don't care.

I agree on RR. Make him the Z. We need an X. I'm done with Nicks. DONE. Get out. DONE!

We can get a mid round RB. I want a TE too. We need a 6 5" redzone TE.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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We can't though bro. We just extended him. We have to find a spot for him. He's done well at RT in the past, just throw him in there and salvage him as best we can. Pugh is a good RT, I think he can be a great LG. Or RG. Either or I don't care.

I agree on RR. Make him the Z. We need an X. I'm done with Nicks. DONE. Get out. DONE!

We can get a mid round RB. I want a TE too. We need a 6 5" redzone TE.


Reese needs to step it up. Extending a guy who is average to good. Red zone TE only to throw dopey fade or run the ball on 3rd and 10. Can we make fun of playcalling? If the system is off limits, I need something to rage on!

Put Beatty as a LG. I don't care. I am not screwing up Pugh's growth with musical OL, just because he isn't a good fit at LT. That's Reese's fault for that then if things aren't working out.

Myers is a such a waste. Only way the dude can score is if no one touches him. Meanwhile, MB had another TD pass for the bears. We have zero speed on this team. Cruz has game speed, but other than that we have big slow guys.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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The faster the player the faster they'll run by a mistimed route!
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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The faster the player the faster they'll run by a mistimed route!
Haha yeah I used to say that too. Obvious a player who can understand this Sy... oops. I almost said it. But no sense in having a 4.3 player running the wrong route at warp speed. LOL. That would be funny we have seen everything else in this... offense.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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One of the big decisions next offseason that we have to make is with Eli

He is entering the last year of his deal and has a $20m cap number.

Do we give him an extension?

An extension would mean some cap relief next season, but it is also likely to be similar to the six year $108m extenstion Tony Romo received earlier this year.

Is it worth investing that kind of money and committing this franchise for the next seven seasons to a QB who turns 33 in January?

Previously it would have been a no brainer, but his performance this year means we should at least kick the tires on various options.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Jim Cordle to IR.

So China Doll is on IR, and now Cordle, at center, to IR.
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Reese needs to step it up. Extending a guy who is average to good. Red zone TE only to throw dopey fade or run the ball on 3rd and 10. Can we make fun of playcalling? If the system is off limits, I need something to rage on!

Put Beatty as a LG. I don't care. I am not screwing up Pugh's growth with musical OL, just because he isn't a good fit at LT. That's Reese's fault for that then if things aren't working out.

Myers is a such a waste. Only way the dude can score is if no one touches him. Meanwhile, MB had another TD pass for the bears. We have zero speed on this team. Cruz has game speed, but other than that we have big slow guys.
As far as the online goes, I subscribe to the same theory as Harry Carson and Carl Banks, lets get the 5 nastiest guys we can find and go from there.
Personally I don't think it matters here about what positions we have had, in the past we have interchanged with all positions, often by necessity, but it has been effective.

We have Pugh, Beatty, Brewer and Mosley right now, lets get a bunch more talent and go from there. Let them fight it out where they play.
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Old 11-26-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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One of the big decisions next offseason that we have to make is with Eli

He is entering the last year of his deal and has a $20m cap number.

Do we give him an extension?

An extension would mean some cap relief next season, but it is also likely to be similar to the six year $108m extenstion Tony Romo received earlier this year.

Is it worth investing that kind of money and committing this franchise for the next seven seasons to a QB who turns 33 in January?

Previously it would have been a no brainer, but his performance this year means we should at least kick the tires on various options.
We're going to have to extend Eli and he'll be making way too much money. We can then spread the money over X amount of years and make the back deal more team friendly in case we need to part ways.
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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We're going to have to extend Eli and he'll be making way too much money. We can then spread the money over X amount of years and make the back deal more team friendly in case we need to part ways.
We don't have to, there are options we could consider if we wanted to go down that path.

Take the Browns for example, they have a good defence, offensive line and solid ground game and receiving corps. The Browns have plenty of cap room and extra 1st, 3rd and 4th round picks in the draft. Adding a proven franchise QB like Eli to run Norv Turner's offense could turn them into serious playoff contenders.

If the Browns offered both their first round picks for Eli would you consider it?

Sure we would need to replace Eli, but I think the front office is pretty high on Nassib plus we could bring in a solid vet.

I am not saying this is something that we should do, but it is an option that we do have if we wanted to go down that path.
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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I guess the point I am trying to make is that everything needs to be evaluated this offseason to work out where things went wrong and how we want to build this team going forward. I think the front office every player and coach should be under scrutiny and changes be on the table regardless of past performances or legacy.

where did we go wrong? Is it coaching? player talent? or execution of plays and schemes?

I happen to think there is a good chance Coughlin will be back. He will take a hard look at the coaching staff. I still think generally our overall coaching staff is very good, but some.

I also think our talent level was ok going into the season. It wasn't great but heading into the season, I felt we had enough talent to be in the playoff hunt.

So that leaves execution. I do think that some of the issues lie with the schemes, but our biggest problem is execution, we are simply not consistently doing what needed to get the job done.

We have likely been guilty of holding on to players/schemes that have worked well in the past a little too much, which is probably a legacy of our SB success. But at some point things have to change. I actually wonder if this is an opportunity to reload the roster a little, get younger and healthier and build talent.

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Old 11-26-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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We don't have to, there are options we could consider if we wanted to go down that path.

Take the Browns for example, they have a good defence, offensive line and solid ground game and receiving corps. The Browns have plenty of cap room and extra 1st, 3rd and 4th round picks in the draft. Adding a proven franchise QB like Eli to run Norv Turner's offense could turn them into serious playoff contenders.

If the Browns offered both their first round picks for Eli would you consider it?

Sure we would need to replace Eli, but I think the front office is pretty high on Nassib plus we could bring in a solid vet.

I am not saying this is something that we should do, but it is an option that we do have if we wanted to go down that path.
I appreciate the outside the box thinking but we're not getting rid of Eli. He'll be around until he leaves on his own terms or the injury bug rolls around like this brother.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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I appreciate the outside the box thinking but we're not getting rid of Eli. He'll be around until he leaves on his own terms or the injury bug rolls around like this brother.
You are probably right.

It really concerns me that we have a well established system that has proven to be successful with well established receivers yet Eli is completely out of sync with the rest of the passing game. It isn't like it is the first time this has happened and it is unfair to blame the system every time, we know the system can work and Eli, Nicks, Cruz and Randle have enough experience together for things to work.

Don't get me wrong, I still like Eli, but based on his last few year's play I am not sure he is worth the kind of money he will get, particularly considering his age.

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Old 11-27-2013, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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Let's not sugar coat it. Eli has not looked good this year. Now there are a number of factors as to why. We all know them.

But let's not pretend Eli is blame free for our offense this season either. He has not played well. He's regressed for whatever reason.

I'm a huge Eli supporter so you won't hear me go off the deep end with him, but let's face facts. He has not had a good year.

And with the state of the offense moving forward, I'm concerned. He's getting older. He needs a whole new OL. He has no reliable weapons outside of Cruz. Randle can become a weapon but we don't know yet. We have concerns at RB.

This offense is a mess. From coaching to personnel, to depth, to talent. It's a mess.

And our best player who has made a career out of making everyone around him better hasn't done so this year. And is getting older.

It's a concern.

But I believe in Eli. Always. We ride the waves with Eli until he retires.

Of course he hasn't played well. Who would play well this these conditions and variables? I don't see how any QB would play well. That's like me asking you to cook Chicken Cutlets but not giving you any chicken. Use beef, and when you're done, turn around and say, damn for whatever reason you stink at cooking Chicken Cutlets.

You know what, this Eli for whatever reason is having a down year. Hmm.. I wonder why.

Quote:
He's regressed for whatever reason.
You know and have stated the reasons. The real question is HOW DO WE FIX IT?

Also, here is another one. Do you believe there is a disconnect between the front office, who goes shopping for the groceries and the coaching staff who are cooking the meals.

For example, you know the system we run. I am not going to rehash it. But we sign a WCO TE with 76 catches.. Or we draft beckum who was a H back, and Reese said would be a 3rd down guy to move the chains when it gets cold. However, in our offense we use a traditional 2 way TE, who can run block and go out on routes.

We draft WRs with good technique and body control however the system we run we need SMART WRs like Cruz & Steve Smith who Eli can trust. We want to play smash mouth football now, but have an OL who use technique and finesse. If we need smart WRs, then why not go after college systems that use the Run and Shoot or perhaps Air Raid systems. They may not be applicable players for other systems, but in our system they may excel because they played a similar system in college.

Our Finesse OL uses Power, Power G, Center, G, ISO, and LEAD. These are roughly the running concepts we have seen. Yet now we try to run smashmouth football running concepts with these guys. As it stands, we can't do either philosophies due to the talent. So we are screwed in that department.

So what gives? Here is a debate for all. Is Reese getting and drafting players, who realistically aren't a good fit for our system? Defensively, we spot drop our LBs and have them cover LBs. However, our LBs are slow! We got Beason and see the difference. There are times we have physical corners who excel at press coverage, but play off man or zone.

Let's also remember Reese didn't hire the GM or draft the QB, two big things a GM does during his tenure.

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Old 11-27-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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I know the reasons. But he's not completely innocent himself. He's made countless mistakes.

Isolate the player. Eli has made a lot of bad plays that aren't the fault of the system or the players around him. He's made his own share of mistakes that we give him a pass for bc he's Eli.

But make no mistake, Eli is not making the plays he's made in the past. He's not identifying the blitz as well. He's not going through his progressions as well. He's not throwing to the right read like he used to.

Basic elements of qb play that he's not doing well. Sugarcoat it all you want, but that's the reality. He hasn't done his share either.

I have no doubt that he'll bounce back next year after an offseason to just thaw out after this cluster of a season, but he's at fault too.

He is not close to innocent. He is missing on throws and decision making. You can take it a step further and add bad luck to the mix too. Tipped balls going directly into the hands of a defender. Tipped balls of a players feet, going directly into the arms of a defender. You add everything and you get this mix.

Let me put it this way. You will never ever say, Hey throughout all this Eli has had a good season. LOL. That's never going to happen. I think it's naive, for people in general, to expect eli to play well throughout all this. This dates back to last season, pre season, to now.

He has the David Carr syndrome where the internal clock gets screwed up because of the pressure he is facing from everywhere. It's a DC's wet dream. You can blitz from anywhere and get home. Blitz whatever gap to your hearts content.

Right now this WHOLE offense, Eli included, is buggered. Again, it starts with everyone. You're not going to have Eli play well through all this. It's never going to happen. Everything is out of sync. When Eli misses they are open. When Eli throws a perfect pass, they drop it, OR not in the tv frame, because they are running the wrong route.

Eli is part of this offense and not innocent like I said. But everything needs to be changed for him to better be efficient. Until then, ALL will fail.
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Old 11-27-2013, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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The more I think about it, the more I think we need wholesale changes on offense.

We really need to put a lot of coin and resources into fixing this offense. Especially the OL.
Well, I'd like that but I want system first. If that can't be changed, then see the GM-Coach disconnect.

We make whole sales changes and then find out those changes aren't good for our system. Then what? Back to square 1 again?

I am tired of this man.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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The more I think about it, the more I think we need wholesale changes on offense.

We really need to put a lot of coin and resources into fixing this offense. Especially the OL.
Here is an article on Gilbride
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...giants-offense

I do think playcalling is part of the problem.

My next question is, should Gilbride be replaced as OC, who do you think are reasonable options?
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Of course he hasn't played well. Who would play well this these conditions and variables? I don't see how any QB would play well. That's like me asking you to cook Chicken Cutlets but not giving you any chicken. Use beef, and when you're done, turn around and say, damn for whatever reason you stink at cooking Chicken Cutlets.

You know what, this Eli for whatever reason is having a down year. Hmm.. I wonder why.



You know and have stated the reasons. The real question is HOW DO WE FIX IT?

Also, here is another one. Do you believe there is a disconnect between the front office, who goes shopping for the groceries and the coaching staff who are cooking the meals.

For example, you know the system we run. I am not going to rehash it. But we sign a WCO TE with 76 catches.. Or we draft beckum who was a H back, and Reese said would be a 3rd down guy to move the chains when it gets cold. However, in our offense we use a traditional 2 way TE, who can run block and go out on routes.

We draft WRs with good technique and body control however the system we run we need SMART WRs like Cruz & Steve Smith who Eli can trust. We want to play smash mouth football now, but have an OL who use technique and finesse. If we need smart WRs, then why not go after college systems that use the Run and Shoot or perhaps Air Raid systems. They may not be applicable players for other systems, but in our system they may excel because they played a similar system in college.

Our Finesse OL uses Power, Power G, Center, G, ISO, and LEAD. These are roughly the running concepts we have seen. Yet now we try to run smashmouth football running concepts with these guys. As it stands, we can't do either philosophies due to the talent. So we are screwed in that department.

So what gives? Here is a debate for all. Is Reese getting and drafting players, who realistically aren't a good fit for our system? Defensively, we spot drop our LBs and have them cover LBs. However, our LBs are slow! We got Beason and see the difference. There are times we have physical corners who excel at press coverage, but play off man or zone.

Let's also remember Reese didn't hire the GM or draft the QB, two big things a GM does during his tenure.
I do think there is a disconnect between Reese and Coughlin.

Coughlins style is based on a physical style running the ball and stopping the run.

It has continued to frustrate me to be honest, Reese hasn't valued the oline much at all.

here are a couple of points off the top of my head:

2006 I wanted Nick Mangold to bolster the interior Oline, Reese trades down to draft a #4 DE in the first round who we have to play at SLB just to get on the field.

2007 with Petitgout's departure, I wanted Joe Staley - Reese picks up a CB and relies on out LG handling Eli's blind side

2012 we draft a shifty RB when I wanted Cordy Glenn, at the very least he could have been the mauler OG we badly needed.

I actually think Reese got too fancy, focusing on DB, DEs and WRs at the expense of the trenches. and we are paying for it now. Same issue at LB.

for comparision look at the Jags drafts in the Coughlin era and where they drafted Oline and defensive front seven.


I am half tempted to do a Jerry Reese redraft based on my notes at the time to see who I would have picked.
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Well, I'd like that but I want system first. If that can't be changed, then see the GM-Coach disconnect.

We make whole sales changes and then find out those changes aren't good for our system. Then what? Back to square 1 again?

I am tired of this man.
I am wondering what we need to do and I suspect Reese may be part of the problem or at the very least Reese and Coughlin are not on the same pages with the type of players we need.
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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One thing I would like to see over the next few weeks is to see Nassib get a little work late in games.
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Let's not sugar coat it. Eli has not looked good this year. Now there are a number of factors as to why. We all know them.

But let's not pretend Eli is blame free for our offense this season either. He has not played well. He's regressed for whatever reason.

I'm a huge Eli supporter so you won't hear me go off the deep end with him, but let's face facts. He has not had a good year.

And with the state of the offense moving forward, I'm concerned. He's getting older. He needs a whole new OL. He has no reliable weapons outside of Cruz. Randle can become a weapon but we don't know yet. We have concerns at RB.

This offense is a mess. From coaching to personnel, to depth, to talent. It's a mess.

And our best player who has made a career out of making everyone around him better hasn't done so this year. And is getting older.

It's a concern.

But I believe in Eli. Always. We ride the waves with Eli until he retires.
I totally agree with you BBD

Eli is 33 and due a big contract. ,But he really has a fixed window for success.

Our offensive line needs work, most of the better free agents are going to be 28/29, will we have the same kind of issues we have now with Baas/Snee in a year or two?

Overall this team has quite a lot of aging vets, they can still be effective, but are short term solutions at best.

I just think questions need to be asked. Do we try and patch this team for a couple of years? Do we try and retool a little, get younger and healthier for a more sustained run?
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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We have 5 games to go, everyone should be playing and coaching for their jobs.
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Old 11-27-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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I am wondering what we need to do and I suspect Reese may be part of the problem or at the very least Reese and Coughlin are not on the same pages with the type of players we need.
Well we keep getting players that don't fit what the coaches want to run. Why sign a WCO undersized, pass catching TE, in a system where you need to be a 2 way TE?

Just stupid decisions Reese is making. Bringing in guys who don't fit what we want to do. Coughlin wants to run the ball, well we need OL guys to do that. We don't have the players to consistently play the way we want to.

Here is another one..

Tom Rock ‏@TomRock_Newsday 56m

TC on Damontre not getting snaps on D: "We're trying."

WTF do you mean, we're trying?! Get him on the field!!! We get rookies and they don't play. We draft an RB who hasn't been called to pass block, and stick him in a complex system where you need to. I mean come on!

Is it too much to ask to draft someone system ready?! Or is every draft pick on the 4 year plan?

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Old 11-27-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Well we keep getting players that don't fit what the coaches want to run. Why sign a WCO undersized, pass catching TE, in a system where you need to be a 2 way TE?

Just stupid decisions Reese is making. Bringing in guys who don't fit what we want to do. Coughlin wants to run the ball, well we need OL guys to do that. We don't have the players to consistently play the way we want to.
I completely agree. There have been a lot of examples in recent years.

I actually like the idea of Coughlin moving to GM
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