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Old 02-14-2014, 02:35 PM    (permalink
BamaFalcon59
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Brady ' s arm strength was excepcional in his early thirtie s. Really improved that over the years.

Rodgers has a lazer.
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Old 02-14-2014, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Brady ' s arm strength was excepcional in his early thirtie s. Really improved that over the years.

Rodgers has a lazer.
It took Rodgers a long time to develop his arm down field though. In the short, intermediate passes he always had a cannon, but for a long time it didn't translate to throwing the deep ball.
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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yeah in the years he sat behind favre they really improved his mechanics.
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Old 02-14-2014, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Brady ' s arm strength was excepcional in his early thirtie s. Really improved that over the years.

Rodgers has a lazer.
Brady is a prime example of a player growing into their arm, his coming out of michigan arm strength was very suspect. Same with Brees, arm strength improved over the course of his career.

Rodgers really struggled with everything sitting behind favre...he was soft, looked scared, and really struggled with the deep ball in his limited action. Awesome to see a player like him grow into a master of the position, most of the time they just disappear
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:44 PM    (permalink
niel89
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I always wonder how Rodgers would have ended up if presses into action early. There were people calling him a bust for a second when he was getting very limited looks behind Favre. He obviously looks great now but he had some stuff to work out and the time helped him.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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I always wonder how Rodgers would have ended up if presses into action early. There were people calling him a bust for a second when he was getting very limited looks behind Favre. He obviously looks great now but he had some stuff to work out and the time helped him.
What scares me is that all of Tedford's drafted QB's had terrible mechanics which is why all them flopped when forced into action prematurely, I agree, Rodgers was saved by sitting for 2 years and completely reworking his mechanics. Just imagine now that Tedford just got hired as an OC, I believe and will be teaching his system to pro QB's, G-d help them.
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Old 02-15-2014, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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What scares me is that all of Tedford's drafted QB's had terrible mechanics which is why all them flopped when forced into action prematurely, I agree, Rodgers was saved by sitting for 2 years and completely reworking his mechanics. Just imagine now that Tedford just got hired as an OC, I believe and will be teaching his system to pro QB's, G-d help them.
I had the same reaction to the Tedford hire. One of my buddies is a huge Bucs fan, and he wasn't as down on the hire as I would have been. All the comments about Rodgers needing those years to improve are 100% accurate.
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Old 02-15-2014, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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I had the same reaction to the Tedford hire. One of my buddies is a huge Bucs fan, and he wasn't as down on the hire as I would have been. All the comments about Rodgers needing those years to improve are 100% accurate.

Does anyone know exactly what it is about Tedford QBs mechanics that's a problem??

I thought it was how Tedford taught the position in general that was the issue, not how guys like Dilfer and Harrington threw the football?

Akili Smith and David Carr didn't bust in the pros because of throwing mechanics. There's no way I can blame Tedford for Kyle Boller's ugly throwing motion or scattershot accuracy, and personally I believe Tedford polished a turd in Boller's case.

I think the narrative that Tedford produces stunted NFL QB prospects may be overstated.

What NFL scouts took a long time to figure out was that Tedford took marginal college prospects out of HS and coached them into All-Americans.

He wasn't ruining 5-star QB recruits like Urban Meyer.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Does anyone know exactly what it is about Tedford QBs mechanics that's a problem??

I thought it was how Tedford taught the position in general that was the issue, not how guys like Dilfer and Harrington threw the football?

Akili Smith and David Carr didn't bust in the pros because of throwing mechanics. There's no way I can blame Tedford for Kyle Boller's ugly throwing motion or scattershot accuracy, and personally I believe Tedford polished a turd in Boller's case.

I think the narrative that Tedford produces stunted NFL QB prospects may be overstated.

What NFL scouts took a long time to figure out was that Tedford took marginal college prospects out of HS and coached them into All-Americans.

He wasn't ruining 5-star QB recruits like Urban Meyer.
Not sure but I believe its the very mechanical and deliberate nature of it that makes a quick delivery difficult. I remember reading something about Tedfored teaching bringing the football back to the ear of the helmet every time...almost a robotic, multi-step repeatable process to maintain consistency but would not be ideal for a QB under duress. I may be wrong but I think I recall reading something along those lines at some point.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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Brady is a prime example of a player growing into their arm, his coming out of michigan arm strength was very suspect. Same with Brees, arm strength improved over the course of his career.
Brady and Brees' arm strength didn't improve over the years, their throwing technique did. Both of them are pretty much the best in the business in stepping into their throws and using their whole body in the motion, and that makes it look like they have a real strong arm.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Does anyone know exactly what it is about Tedford QBs mechanics that's a problem??

I thought it was how Tedford taught the position in general that was the issue, not how guys like Dilfer and Harrington threw the football?

Akili Smith and David Carr didn't bust in the pros because of throwing mechanics. There's no way I can blame Tedford for Kyle Boller's ugly throwing motion or scattershot accuracy, and personally I believe Tedford polished a turd in Boller's case.

I think the narrative that Tedford produces stunted NFL QB prospects may be overstated.

What NFL scouts took a long time to figure out was that Tedford took marginal college prospects out of HS and coached them into All-Americans.

He wasn't ruining 5-star QB recruits like Urban Meyer.
He has the QB's hold the ball at about ear level, which helps protect the ball, and gives the QB a compact delivery, but it's very difficult for his QB's to make NFL throws. Hard to get much velocity with that throwing motion, and he utilizes a lot of quick passes. I'm posting a video a Rodgers at Cal. We've all seen what he throws like now, and the difference is . . . well, obvious. At the 2:37 mark of the clip, Rodgers throws a ball to the sideline, and if you didn't know about his time at Cal and on the bench in Green Bay, there's no way you'd believe it was Rodgers throwing the ball. It struggles to get there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V48DlitkTSg

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Old 02-16-2014, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Doesn't Spurrier coach his QBs to hold the ball at earhole level too??

I agree the mechanics of holding the ball the SAME WAY like that seems too rigid and harder to get any real torque or explosion on passes.

I was impressed with Rodgers at Cal and still don't have a keen enough eye to see why he wasn't selected higher. But I had no idea like most of us that Rodgers would become a HOF caliber player either.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Brady and Brees' arm strength didn't improve over the years, their throwing technique did. Both of them are pretty much the best in the business in stepping into their throws and using their whole body in the motion, and that makes it look like they have a real strong arm.
You aren't wrong about your overall idea,but both also improved their arm strength by increasing their muscle mass as well.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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You aren't wrong about your overall idea,but both also improved their arm strength by increasing their muscle mass as well.
+1'ing this post.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Doesn't Spurrier coach his QBs to hold the ball at earhole level too??

I agree the mechanics of holding the ball the SAME WAY like that seems too rigid and harder to get any real torque or explosion on passes.

I was impressed with Rodgers at Cal and still don't have a keen enough eye to see why he wasn't selected higher. But I had no idea like most of us that Rodgers would become a HOF caliber player either.
Yeah, I remember Rodgers was going to give SF a cheaper contract than Smith, and they still went with Smith, and most people agreed with the move. I think it's hard to see THAT kind of potential in a guy in that system, because those QB's aren't able to execute certain NFL throws with those mechanics. For my money, Rodgers has been the best QB in the NFL over the last four seasons. And his run in the playoffs - where they won the SB - is the best I've seen a QB perform. I remember against Atlanta, he had a free rusher coming from his blindside, but he spun out (didn't think he even saw the guy) and threw a dart down the sideline. He would have put up more points against Seattle than Manning did. They would have still lost, but his mobility gives him options that no other QB - who operates as efficiently from the pocket - has.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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I think it's weird that people think being thrown in too early can "ruin" a player. Aaron Rodgers was already taking a ton of heat, and he was a guy who always practiced and played with a chip on his shoulder because of it. Had he started from day 1, he probably would play poorly, but still develop into a great QB after some early speed bumps.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I think guys can get mentally messed up still. If a guy comes in early throws a ton of picks and gets beat down he can lose his confidence and mentally break down.
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Old 02-16-2014, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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I think guys can get mentally messed up still. If a guy comes in early throws a ton of picks and gets beat down he can lose his confidence and mentally break down.
And maybe then start to develop bad habits with their play. Soon after it might just become a thing with a lot of guys to simply do enough to hang on to a roster spot.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Not sure but I believe its the very mechanical and deliberate nature of it that makes a quick delivery difficult. I remember reading something about Tedfored teaching bringing the football back to the ear of the helmet every time...almost a robotic, multi-step repeatable process to maintain consistency but would not be ideal for a QB under duress. I may be wrong but I think I recall reading something along those lines at some point.
That's what I saw in his QB's, the bringing of the ball back to the ear which seemed to really slow down their release. I also saw Rodgers as a collegian and his release was night and day from how he learned to release it as a pro. That adjustment allowed him to be the only Tedford QB who was successful and it only came about because he was able to sit for 2 years and completely learn a new system.

Being a Tedford QB is the main reason he fell on draft day, but Green Bay knew they had the time with Favre still playing, to rework his technique, and that is why they got lucky.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by niel89 View Post
I think guys can get mentally messed up still. If a guy comes in early throws a ton of picks and gets beat down he can lose his confidence and mentally break down.
One of the main things I consider when analyzing a QB is how mentally tough he is. Can he leave the last play on the field and whip it off his memory for the next play. IMO, QB's who 'get messed up by throwing a ton of picks and get beat down, then lose their confidence and mentally breakdown', were never, ever going to succeed in the NFL no matter how strong a team they were drafted by.

The great NFL QB's were exceptionally strong leaders who anybody would go to war with no matter how tough the going got, These guys simply aren't bothered by the duress that happens during a game, it just makes them mentally stronger.
Yes, a QB can end up on a bad team and maybe not be as great as he would like, but when traded or picked up by a better team, they shine, Jim Plunkett was a perfect example. I believe QB's who failed, if they weren't injured, failed because they just didn't have that mental toughness to begin with. Their character flaws just weren't recognized by the team's GM who drafted them.
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
One of the main things I consider when analyzing a QB is how mentally tough he is. Can he leave the last play on the field and whip it off his memory for the next play. IMO, QB's who 'get messed up by throwing a ton of picks and get beat down, then lose their confidence and mentally breakdown', were never, ever going to succeed in the NFL no matter how strong a team they were drafted by.

The great NFL QB's were exceptionally strong leaders who anybody would go to war with no matter how tough the going got, These guys simply aren't bothered by the duress that happens during a game, it just makes them mentally stronger.
Yes, a QB can end up on a bad team and maybe not be as great as he would like, but when traded or picked up by a better team, they shine, Jim Plunkett was a perfect example. I believe QB's who failed, if they weren't injured, failed because they just didn't have that mental toughness to begin with. Their character flaws just weren't recognized by the team's GM who drafted them.
There are more levels to QB than Great and Suck. I think you're describing the great, can't-miss QB. Andrew Luck was going to succeed no matter where he went. Same with Peyton Manning. Big Ben? I think Arians is very underrated for how he used his skill set. He's now able to execute in an offense that asks him to be more precise, but if he were expected to do that early on, I don't know that he would have succeeded. But with Arians, Big Ben was a much better playoff QB than Manning. At one point, Big Ben's offenses PPG AVG was higher than any other QB's (still might hold that record). The point I'm trying to make is that there various types of Great QB's. Some will be great no matter what, and some need the right fit/seasoning to become great. Doesn't mean they're any less great. Would Joe Montana be considered top 1 or 2 QB's of all time without Bill Walsh? And does that really discount his greatness?
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Old 02-17-2014, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Good post.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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There are more levels to QB than Great and Suck. I think you're describing the great, can't-miss QB. Andrew Luck was going to succeed no matter where he went. Same with Peyton Manning. Big Ben? I think Arians is very underrated for how he used his skill set. He's now able to execute in an offense that asks him to be more precise, but if he were expected to do that early on, I don't know that he would have succeeded. But with Arians, Big Ben was a much better playoff QB than Manning. At one point, Big Ben's offenses PPG AVG was higher than any other QB's (still might hold that record). The point I'm trying to make is that there various types of Great QB's. Some will be great no matter what, and some need the right fit/seasoning to become great. Doesn't mean they're any less great. Would Joe Montana be considered top 1 or 2 QB's of all time without Bill Walsh? And does that really discount his greatness?
Great post

Its post like these that makes me wonder how on earth you believe Manziel is better than Bridgewater or even Bortles for that matter
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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Great post

Its post like these that makes me wonder how on earth you believe Manziel is better than Bridgewater or even Bortles for that matter
Haha thanks man. Don't worry. If you're right about Manziel, I'll be around to hear about it.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E_Bird View Post
There are more levels to QB than Great and Suck. I think you're describing the great, can't-miss QB. Andrew Luck was going to succeed no matter where he went. Same with Peyton Manning. Big Ben? I think Arians is very underrated for how he used his skill set. He's now able to execute in an offense that asks him to be more precise, but if he were expected to do that early on, I don't know that he would have succeeded. But with Arians, Big Ben was a much better playoff QB than Manning. At one point, Big Ben's offenses PPG AVG was higher than any other QB's (still might hold that record). The point I'm trying to make is that there various types of Great QB's. Some will be great no matter what, and some need the right fit/seasoning to become great. Doesn't mean they're any less great. Would Joe Montana be considered top 1 or 2 QB's of all time without Bill Walsh? And does that really discount his greatness?
You make some good points especially with the Montana/Walsh connection. There is no doubt that the WCO that Walsh perfected gave a huge advantage to Montana and Young before the DC's and HC's in the league finally learned how to defend it. Montana might not have put up great #'s in another system because his arm strength didn't suit most other offenses of his day, although I still believe he had enough other intangibles to still be a very solid NFL QB.

I agree that Arians is a great QB coach who can maximize his QB's assets, however, I still hold that all not just some QB's, must have a mental toughness to survive in the NFL. Without the mental toughness to put the last play out of their memory and go on to the next one, a QB cannot make it in the NFL. There is no doubt in my mind that a great HC or OC can make a significant difference in how successful a QB becomes, but IMO, any QB with mental toughness is going to have some degree of success in the NFL if the other attributes are in place, both intangibles and physical ability.

Any QB who lacks mental toughness but who has great intangibles and physical ability, will always struggle in the NFL.
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