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Old 02-18-2014, 04:02 AM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Default Pre Combine Top 32

1. Jadeveon Clowney, DE South Carolina
2. Sammy Watkins, WR Clemson
3. Jake Matthews, OT Texas A&M
4. Greg Robinson, OT Auburn
5. Khalil Mack, OLB Buffalo
6. Teddy Bridgewater, QB Louisville
7. Johnny Manziel, QB Texas A&M
8. Mike Evans, WR Texas A&M
9. Darqueze Dennard, CB Michigan State
10. Ra’Shede Hageman, DT, Minnesota
11. CJ Mosley, LB Alabama
12. Anthony Barr, OLB UCLA
13. Kony Ealy, DE Missouri
14. Ryan Shazier, LB Ohio State
15. Justin Gilbert, CB Oklahoma State
16. Zack Martin, OL Notre Dame
17. Marqise Lee, WR USC
18. Taylor Lewan, OT Michigan
19. Calvin Pryor, S Louisville
20. Eric Ebron, TE UNC
21. Blake Bortles, QB UCF
22. Odell Beckham Jr, WR LSU
23. Jace Amaro, TE Texas A&M
24. Paul Richardson, WR Colorado
25. Louis Nix III, DT Notre Dame
26. Ha’Sean Clinton-Dix, S Alabama
27. Aaron Donald, DT Pittsburgh
28. David Yankey, OL Stanford
29. Jimmie Ward, S NIU
30. Timmy Jernigan, DT FSU
31. Carlos Hyde, RB Ohio State
32. Troy Niklas, TE Notre Dame


A few notes on what I have seen:

1. The TEs in general have slightly fallen for me. Ebron is still the cream of the crop but he lacks physicality and gets "alligator arms" at times. Amaro I do like but he isn't going to be a difference maker like Ebron IMO. I have moved Niklas into my top 32 and dropped ASJ. Niklas is very physical in the run game and can get down the seam. ASJ needs to drop some serious weight because he had no explosion this year.

2. The DT group is very much a pick your favorite IMO. I get that teams will love Nix because of his size, and I have heard the Aaron Donald/Geno Atkins comps, but for me the top DT is Hageman. He has the most upside and positional flexibility.

3. Really not a good DE group after Clowney. Ealy is the best of the rest but after that the cupboard is bare on top end prospects. Stephon Tuitt was really unimpressive to me, and I get that he played with an injury, but he lacked explosion and flexibility. He may have to play inside the OTs at the next level and I don't see the power or hand usage to succeed.

4. Love this WR group. I really could have put anywhere up to 10 guys in my top 32. There is something for teams in the top 4 rounds. For this reason I see them taking a slide at the top of the draft.
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:30 AM    (permalink
shylo3716
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2 WRs ahead of Benjamin seems a bit harsh.
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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Benjamin can easily be ranked 2-6 depending on who you ask

I like your list a lot, I love Hagemen as a DT in a 43 or DE in the 34, with nix it depends what you want to do with him, hes an interior guy all the way though
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by shylo3716 View Post
2 WRs ahead of Benjamin seems a bit harsh.
I'm really not a big fan of Benjamin. Outside of his size I don't see a lot that he brings to the table. In saying that, the WR class in general is full of different types of guys who could all realistically rank in different people's top 32.

Guys like Jarvis Landry, Allen Robinson, Davante Adams, Donte Moncrief, Brandin Cooks, Kelvin Benjamin etc could all go somewhere between the late first and the third round.
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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Benjamin can easily be ranked 2-6 depending on who you ask

I like your list a lot, I love Hagemen as a DT in a 43 or DE in the 34, with nix it depends what you want to do with him, hes an interior guy all the way though
I am on record as saying I love Hageman. I don't think he has reached his full potential yet but his skillset is out of this world.

Nix, if healthy, can be a wrecking ball in an odd or even front. I think because the value of having a guy who can do the things he does is higher than a guy like Hageman then he could go higher but I prefer Hageman.

I actually think both guys compare favorably to Richard Seymour (Hageman) and Vince Wilfork (Nix). At the time the Seymour pick was panned because he wasn't an impact pass rusher or overly stout to play inside and I see some of the same concerns with Hageman, although he also has a consistency issue.

I don't know if Nix can do some of the things Wilfork does, but it needs to be remembered that Wilfork didn't do those things for the first few years of his career. He was solely a 2 gap stuffer in the Seymour, Ty Warren days, but since they have gone he has become more of a penetrator. I think Nix can do similar, if he can stay healthy
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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I'm not excited by your ranking. You don't seem to place enough stress on whether a position is primary or secondary in importance on the football field. Just my way of thinking that a top 32 has to take into account, the importance of the position a guy plays. Your list seems to strongly contradict your comments re: TE's 3 in the top 32 yet "they have slightly fallen".

Your list also doesn't seem to reflect the current lists coming out on NFL.com, there is sort of a general consensus there which I believe is reflected on Mayock's list. I place a lot of importance on doing your homework or at least explaining why you disagree.

I see 6 names that certainly have an awful lot to prove before I would consider them top 32, not that they won't end up in the top 32 after the Combine, but I just don't think they have earned it just yet.

Beckham WR I love him but he still needs the Combine to get this high IMO.
Pal Richardson WR has a ways to go to reach these heights
Aaron Donald DT Looked great at the Senior bowl practices but did little during the game and therefore may have fallen back to round 2.
David Yankey OG Just isn't a 1st round talent, not even sure he'll come out of the Combine as the #1 OG in the draft.
Jimmie Ward s He definitely needs the Combine to reach these lofty heights. Cannot put him there yet.
Troy Niklas TE Very intriguing prospect but again definitely needs the Combine to get into round 1. Ditto for Amaro if you ask me.

I fully agree that the WR position is loaded with talent and depth and can only be sorted out at the Combine or Pro Days.
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Old 02-18-2014, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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The TEs falling were based on my own previous rankings. Ebron has slipped a little and ASJ a lot.

I do read other people's lists but at the end of the day these are how I view the prospects. I don't claim to be an expert at all but in the same way I don't see the point in debating if I am going to regurgitate others opinions.

As for saying a number of guys need the combine to go round 1 a). That could be said for the majority of guys. If Mike Evans runs a 4.8 is he a first rounder etc?? And b). These are my own rankings, not a mock draft. I realise some if these guys won't go in the first but from my perspective at this point they are the top 32 guys. That well change drastically in the next few months and I can guarantee I will still be wrong, but that isn't the point. The point is me putting up my favorite players and having a discussion about it.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Would you elaborate on why you have Ryan Shazier as high (#14) as you have?
Im still in the early stages of putting my big board together, but atm he is a fringe top 50 prospect in my book. Not saying you're wrong or anything, I would just like to hear the take from someone who obviously likes him significantly more than I do.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Shazier is a beast. He won't go that high due to position, but saying he's a top 15 talent is reasonable to me. He'll be a pro bowl caliber player from day one IMO.
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Old 02-18-2014, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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I would rate Timmy Jernigan much higher, just a notch below Hageman. The receiver class is the toughest to figure out, as I don't even know if I view most of the "top" guys as being first round worthy. Watkins I like but after him there's plenty of uncertainty for me.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Shazier is a beast. He won't go that high due to position, but saying he's a top 15 talent is reasonable to me. He'll be a pro bowl caliber player from day one IMO.
But what makes him a beast specifically? I've watched a decent amount of his games, and I just don't see it. I would like to hear some more specific thoughts about his game.
Fwiw his position has very little influence on his ranking on my board.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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As an Ohio St fan, I would say that he's far too small to do much of anything at OLB. He gets washed out so easily. He's pretty much a nickel LB and that's it. I would much rather see him play in-the-box Safety. He can no doubt make an impact, but anyone that wasn't on that DL was a bit overrated in Ohio St's defense.

However, I'm more okay with him being placed there than Niklas being in the top 32. He has back-up TE level talent.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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I really like Troy Niklas and am wondering if he could be a salary-cap replacement to do what Zach Miller did. I've been toying with the idea of picking him at 32. He's a similar player with more length and athleticism and, fun fact: he was actually a highly-regarded offensive tackle prospect in high school. How often do you see a coach tell an offensive tackle he's too athletic to be blocking, and sends him out to go learn to play tight end? And, incidentally, has great body control, playmaking speed, and is a natural hands catcher?
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
The TEs falling were based on my own previous rankings. Ebron has slipped a little and ASJ a lot.

I do read other people's lists but at the end of the day these are how I view the prospects. I don't claim to be an expert at all but in the same way I don't see the point in debating if I am going to regurgitate others opinions.

As for saying a number of guys need the combine to go round 1 a). That could be said for the majority of guys. If Mike Evans runs a 4.8 is he a first rounder etc?? And b). These are my own rankings, not a mock draft. I realise some if these guys won't go in the first but from my perspective at this point they are the top 32 guys. That well change drastically in the next few months and I can guarantee I will still be wrong, but that isn't the point. The point is me putting up my favorite players and having a discussion about it.
Then, I would like your reasoning for having each in his place on your board so we can discuss it.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:30 AM    (permalink
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Would you elaborate on why you have Ryan Shazier as high (#14) as you have?
Im still in the early stages of putting my big board together, but atm he is a fringe top 50 prospect in my book. Not saying you're wrong or anything, I would just like to hear the take from someone who obviously likes him significantly more than I do.
Shazier is just always around the ball. His weigh in will be crucial but if he is above 230 I don't see why he can't play LB. In a passing league it is imperative that you have LBs who can stay on the field. It gives you so much more versatility as to what you can do. I would much rather a guy who can play the pass well than have a big thumping ILB to stop the run
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:34 AM    (permalink
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Then, I would like your reasoning for having each in his place on your board so we can discuss it.
At this point I don't have the time to do a write up for each individual person on my board, maybe I will have time in a day or so to do that. Let me know who intrigues you and I will give my reasonings.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:54 AM    (permalink
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As an Ohio St fan, I would say that he's far too small to do much of anything at OLB. He gets washed out so easily. He's pretty much a nickel LB and that's it. I would much rather see him play in-the-box Safety. He can no doubt make an impact, but anyone that wasn't on that DL was a bit overrated in Ohio St's defense.

However, I'm more okay with him being placed there than Niklas being in the top 32. He has back-up TE level talent.
Eh, I definitely disagree about Niklas. Everyone loves the guys who can split out and run down the seam like Ebron but Niklas will definitely be a starting TE in the NFL. He could very quickly become one of the best blocking TEs in the NFL and he is a very good pass catcher.

The main criticism I have of him is when he goes into his routes he could be more physical. When someone tries to jam him he tries to be too finesse and use a swim move to get past him. Just run through the guy!!!

But, for a guy who can be a safety blanket, get down the seam and single block DEs in both the run and pass game I don't see a back up at all. He likely won't go first round, but for me he is a really good prospect.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:56 AM    (permalink
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I would rate Timmy Jernigan much higher, just a notch below Hageman. The receiver class is the toughest to figure out, as I don't even know if I view most of the "top" guys as being first round worthy. Watkins I like but after him there's plenty of uncertainty for me.
I really want to like both Jernigan and Donald as much as other people, but right now I just can't. Maybe I am missing something on both but I don't think either will be game changers in the NFL.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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I like following top 32 lists and see how many eventually end up being taken in the first round compared to someone putting together a mock and predicting team selections, the latter is just so much harder to do with any reliability, discounting trades.

Not a bad list, probably 2 too many TEs though.

If WR Paul Richardson showed up at the combine weighing 185+# and ran the times he's expected, he could sneak into the late 1st. From a pure talent perspective he's exceptional(except for being too skinny), but right now he looks to me like a 2nd-3rd round pick.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Anybody know when the quarterbacks work out in Indianapolis? I looked for it but couldn't find it. I want to watch it during my lunch break.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Anybody know when the quarterbacks work out in Indianapolis? I looked for it but couldn't find it. I want to watch it during my lunch break.
Sunday February 23rd
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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2 WRs ahead of Benjamin seems a bit harsh.
I got three ahead of him (Watkins, Evans, Lee).

Ryan Shazier is good in pass coverage, which is going to be a buzz word after the Seahawks won a Super Bowl playing great coverage.

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Old 02-19-2014, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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I just can't get on the Paul Richardson bandwagon. I do like a lot of your rankings though, notably how low you have HCD and how high you have Evans. I keep saying I don't think Evans gets out of the top 12.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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I've been watching Jernigan lately and I have to say that I would also rate him much higher. His technique is already very good as he plays with great leverage and strength. I love how violent he is when shedding blocks. He also shows the often overlooked ability to track the ball carrier while holding off blockers which allows him to stay in position to make a play.

I honestly think he has some unlocked potential as a pass rusher as well. It's weird watching him because most D-linemen tend to focus on rushing the passer and have a tendency to get too far upfield on run plays. Jernigan is the opposite where he often focuses on holding his ground and at times seems uninterested in trying to get after the QB. If somebody could teach him a good swim move with his quick and violent hands I think he could create a solid amount of pressure up the middle.

I could see making a case that the upside and versatility of Hageman make him more valuable but outside of that I can't get behind ranking any other DT over Jernigan.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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I got three ahead of him (Watkins, Evans, Lee).

Ryan Shazier is good in pass coverage, which is going to be a buzz word after the Seahawks won a Super Bowl playing great coverage.
Someone didnt gander at the rankings.
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