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Old 02-28-2014, 05:25 PM    (permalink
derza222
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Originally Posted by killxswitch View Post
Where does the foot injury leave him in the draft? Any chance he falls to round 2?
Speaking of foot injuries, ASJ apparently had surgery today to fix the stress fracture in his foot they found at the combine, eight week timetable for recovery. Will be interesting to see if he's able to work out before the draft and where he lands come draft day if not.
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Old 02-28-2014, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Lol, you think corners ran 4.55s back in 2003? That was slow and still is. That has been safety speed for a long time. Most starting safeties in the NFL don't run like corners, those that do are the exception not the rule my friend. You can be a stud safety like Ed Reed has been without running below 4.6 still.
Brandon Browner 4.63
Richard Sherman 4.54
Joe Haden 4.52

These are corners, are they exceptions to the rule? The other year more corners ran over 4.66 than did sub 4.5. 4.5 to 4.6 is plenty fast for a safety
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Old 02-28-2014, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by rawdawg View Post
First of all, 4.4 doesn't beat 4.6 just by virtue of being faster. If so Mike Wallace would habe a few 500 yard games under his belt. Secondly, its 2/10 of a second over a 40-yard distance. Technique makes up for the minute difference between speeds. If a 4.9 guy lets a 4.4 guy run wild thru his zone....he screwed up his assignment. Its not because hes too slow.
also have to factor in how fast they are with pads on, how much stamina they have (can they run 4.4 the entire game, every single play?), and how often are they going to run 40 yards in a straight line.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Rob Rang did a write up recently ranking Ward as his most complete safety prospect. I don't believe he said outright best, but I think he strongly implied it.
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Old 03-01-2014, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by batsandgats View Post
also have to factor in how fast they are with pads on, how much stamina they have (can they run 4.4 the entire game, every single play?), and how often are they going to run 40 yards in a straight line.
I think pads equal out since both players wear them and running 40 yards is pretty important for a CB. .1 difference equals about 3 feet so it is significant. If you watch when they show 2 or 3 runners all running together at the Combine, you get an idea of just how much separation a WR can get if he is faster. Of course, slower CB's like Browner and Sherman press at the LOS to cut down the edge the WR has on them. I suspect, both would have more problems if their team didn't put a lot of pressure on the QB. Haden ran much faster at his pro day, just had an off day at the Combine.

I completely agree that the 4.6 range for a Safety is fast enough.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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It's interesting that Jake Matthews seems to be widely viewed as falling a bit after the Combine. I wonder if NFL teams see it that way. His Combine seems awfully similar to 6 time All-Pro Joe Thomas' Combine.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
It's interesting that Jake Matthews seems to be widely viewed as falling a bit after the Combine. I wonder if NFL teams see it that way. His Combine seems awfully similar to 6 time All-Pro Joe Thomas' Combine.
I don't see it as him falling as much as it is Robinson rising. The difference between being the #1 and #2 OT taken could end up being quite a few spots so it's an important battle to win in terms of draft position. I'd love to be the team that drafts Matthews, especially if it's in the latter half of the top 10.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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I don't see him falling either.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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If a player goes from being projected top 5 to being projected outside the top 5, it seems like falling to me.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
If a player goes from being projected top 5 to being projected outside the top 5, it seems like falling to me.
The point we're making is that Matthews' overall value hasn't change it's just his relative value that has changed. People don't see Matthews as a worse player they just might prefer Robinson now after he blew up the combine.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Value is always relative.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Value is always relative.
That statement is false. There is such thing as intrinsic or objective value. It's just a different way of looking at things. Matthews was the player they thought he was before the combine whereas they believe that Robinson is better than they thought. Therefore Robinson gets moved above Matthews despite Matthews being viewed as exactly the same player he was before the combine. I'm not sure how this is difficult to understand.....
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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If something moves from #1 to #2 it fell.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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If something moves from #1 to #2 it fell.
That's true. The point was that your comment, whether it was intentional or not, implied that teams were dropping Jake Matthews because he didn't perform as well as expected at the combine. I was simply saying that it wasn't Matthews doing poorly, but instead Robinson doing exceptionally well, that caused his relative value to drop. His objective value hasn't changed in teams' eyes and he remains an elite LT prospect.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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That's true. The point was that your comment, whether it was intentional or not, implied that teams were dropping Jake Matthews because he didn't perform as well as expected at the combine. I was simply saying that it wasn't Matthews doing poorly, but instead Robinson doing exceptionally well, that caused his relative value to drop. His objective value hasn't changed in teams' eyes and he remains an elite LT prospect.
Man, you've got some nice patience.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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If something moves from #1 to #2 it fell.
If some one cut in front of you in line, does that mean you moved back a space? No, it means you got skipped.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Brandon Browner 4.63
Richard Sherman 4.54
Joe Haden 4.52

These are corners, are they exceptions to the rule? The other year more corners ran over 4.66 than did sub 4.5. 4.5 to 4.6 is plenty fast for a safety
some people just dont get that 1/10 of a second spread out over 40 yards is not really an accurate measurement of a players ability to cover someone from snap to whistle
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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some people just dont get that 1/10 of a second spread out over 40 yards is not really an accurate measurement of a players ability to cover someone from snap to whistle
Except, at that high of speed and with the acceleration being near the same for everyone, it is. We're talking the difference of feet that grow exponentially the faster the time drops.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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When quarterbacks can throw into windows that are 2 ft X 2 ft 40 yards down the field when the WR has a half step on the DB, yeah...0.1 seconds is a big deal.

Haden is faster than 4.5, he had a hamstring that offseason. Sherman and Browner grab a lot and have a guy named Earl Thomas to clean up behind them.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Except, at that high of speed and with the acceleration being near the same for everyone, it is. We're talking the difference of feet that grow exponentially the faster the time drops.
At the pro level If someone blows past you its because you had poor technique, someone missed an assignment, or you blew your zone completely....not because the guy ran a 4.5 while you only ran a 4.6
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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When quarterbacks can throw into windows that are 2 ft X 2 ft 40 yards down the field when the WR has a half step on the DB, yeah...0.1 seconds is a big deal.

Haden is faster than 4.5, he had a hamstring that offseason. Sherman and Browner grab a lot and have a guy named Earl Thomas to clean up behind them.
Then Mike Wallace should have had several 500 yard games by now
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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At the pro level If someone blows past you its because you had poor technique, someone missed an assignment, or you blew your zone completely....not because the guy ran a 4.5 while you only ran a 4.6
No. There is scientific data that disproves that there is in fact a huge difference in 10ths of a second especially as you drop closer to the 4.4 range.

It's not the be-all, end-all, but to say that it's just a static number without meaning is ridiculous.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 03-10-2014, 02:32 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Yeah no one is discounting technique and scheme and all of that. But to say speed doesn't matter at CB is a little far fetched. It matters. A lot.

Size and technique can make up for some lost speed but it can't completely mask it.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by K Train View Post
Then Mike Wallace should have had several 500 yard games by now
No, because no team is stupid enough to put their 4.6 CB in a foot race with Wallace down the field. You play off coverage, bump him at the line, have safety help over the top, or any other way to avoid letting his speed make a difference.

Can you limit the impact that 4.3 speed has on a game? Sure, but the point is that if you ignore it, you'll get beat every time.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Im not saying it doesnt matter, my argument was 4.5, while not world class is decent speed for a CB, and 4.6 is hardly bad for a Safety

Sure you want everyone to run 4.3 or 4.4, that would be awesome....but realistically game speed is much different than straight line 40 yard dash speed. Reaction time, and fluidity is more important than being able to run straight really fast

Antonio Brown doesnt have top end speed, but when you watch him run he loses almost nothing when turning and making cuts.
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

The hell he won't, lol.

Last edited by K Train : 03-10-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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