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Old 03-21-2014, 06:38 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Pauline said people close to BW who were directly involved in his pro day thought it was nerves that were the issue.

That's interesting. It's not a good excuse, but I could see a situation where you get frustrated by the lack of gloves, and then it all falls apart and you get nervous because you know you're messing up and then it snowballs...

Now you don't want that to even be an option with a QB. But if I then take him to a private workout, I could simply give him a mulligan if he's that much better with the gloves.

Which sucks for us. We don't get to see those private workouts or even get reports about them. This kid's stock is going to be the biggest damn question mark in the draft because of that pro day. How he does in private workouts will determine his fate.
I agree and that's why I always get a chuckle when some draftniks act like they know everything about a prospect, even though they never get to work him out or watch teams work him out, or interview him or actually check out his character rather than relying on the media, etc. etc.
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Old 03-21-2014, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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This is hilarious, it goes against everything I have ever heard about these 2 or ever see when watching them. You have to stop making up ridiculous statements about pros who consistently take their teams to the playoffs, "Ryan lacks pocket presence", I don't know what games you ever watched but pocket presence is a solid strong point of Ryan's game and one of the reasons, he has consistently taken his teams to the playoffs, even without a solid arm. And Dalton is often let down by his arm strength and his passes can get picked off as they float to a receiver, decisions aren't the problem, it's his arm strength that lets him down. You need to do your homework before making up opinions on players you have no idea about.

Sorry, to jump all over you, but you simply cannot go around making up stuff in your mind on a site where people really know football, people on this site not only watch pro games, they follow a prospect right through college and pretty well know everything about them from A to Z, and you cannot get away with non factual statements or your going to get jumped on everyday of the week.
No offense, You clearly have no idea what you are looking at.

Matt Ryans struggles with pressure in his face.

Dalton displays plenty of zip, his issue is mental.

If you can't understand why the mental game is big with Dalton then I cannot help you
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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It sucks that Keller Moore doesn't have the arm to be good. He was a good player in college. His timing was on point to make up for his duck arm.

Later Chad Pennington is another guy who was great mentally and accuracy but was just too gimped in his arm because of the surgeries. He would have been pretty good for a while if the shoulder didn't get tore up.
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Moore's best attribute was his short area accuracy. His mental game while still good was somewhat overrated coming from an offense where he only read one side of the field. But he's still picking up an NFL paycheck so at least one team still believes in him despite being about as ordinary as you be physically.
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Dalton's issue isn't arm strength.
It's footwork.

Also as said before, he lacks anticipation which would more than make up for any other faults physically. That's mental.
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Old 03-22-2014, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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I'm not convinced that there's as strong of a correlation between a QB's weight and his likeliness of getting injured as people seem to think. There are plenty of QBs of all sizes that have had nagging injuries throughout their career. Brett Favre was only around 6'2 225 and he holds the record for most consecutive starts for any player. Sam Bradford is 6'4 235 and can't make it through a full season. Joe Montana is widely considered the best QB of all-time despite having skinny legs and weighing around 205.

Obviously that's a small sample size but from what I've seen almost all QBs deal with injuries and it's more about toughness and the ability to play through pain. Bridgewater only missed one start in his career and that was the game against Rutgers where he came off the bench with a broken wrist and severely sprained ankle and led his team back from behind. I've also seen him take a wicked helmet to helmet shot on the 2nd play of his BCS game against Florida that knocked his helmet clean off. He proceeded to pick apart the top passing defense in the nation. I can understand that you'd prefer him to be a bit bigger but I don't think it's as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. You can question his frame but you certainly can't question the guy's toughness.

I also don't think his arm strength is as limited as some people seem to think. He's shown the ability to drive the ball into tight spaces when he sets his feet. He doesn't have the cannon that Flacco and Kaepernick have but it's certainly more than adequate IMO. I think the biggest thing for him is learning to use his whole body more often to get more consistent velocity on his passes.

Overall the guy has his flaws but I don't think he's as limited physically as people seem to be thinking at this point.
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Old 03-22-2014, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengals78 View Post
Dalton's issue isn't arm strength.
It's footwork.

Also as said before, he lacks anticipation which would more than make up for any other faults physically. That's mental.
Yup. I am a Bengals fan as well and we simply call him Good Andy or Bad Andy. There is no Great Andy but there is Good and Bad. When Bad, such as all 3 playoff games, he absolutely stinks the place up - throws high, floats passes, panics and makes bad decisions. There is no denying this. When Good, he looks like a guy that can lead you to a championship with a good D. He can manage the game and make some nice throws and reads. He is just inconsistent and as I said it does not go from good to average or good to poor, he goes straight to bad.

There was no indication of this type of play in college, coming out the only question was his arm strength. And Good Andy has improved on that a lot since his first year. Last year he hit on a lot more deep balls as well.

In hindsight, he was drafted in the right spot. Good enough to start well right out of the gate, has the smarts, but there were questions that held him back from being a top pick and those questions still exit.

Not all that different for Kaepernick (different questions).
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Old 04-02-2014, 03:52 AM    (permalink
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He wont fall past jacksonville.
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Old 04-02-2014, 04:02 AM    (permalink
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He wont fall past jacksonville.
Pretty sure he will, i would draft him at 3 though.
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Old 04-03-2014, 04:27 AM    (permalink
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Pretty sure he will, i would draft him at 3 though.
No. They like him to much to pass on him.
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Old 04-03-2014, 04:39 AM    (permalink
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Man draft day will be exciting, 4 QB desperate teams, Houston, Jacksonville, Cleveland and Oakland, drafting in the top 5, 3 QB's with warts, and at least 5 future HoF candidates on everybody's board, maybe more. Can it get any better.

Teams had better draft well this year, because for 4 rounds there are starters to be had and teams that draft poorly, will be left behind, possibly for a decade.
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Old 04-03-2014, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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Teams had better draft well this year, because for 4 rounds there are starters to be had and teams that draft poorly, will be left behind, possibly for a decade.

I doubt that very much, you can find players in every draft you just have to develop them.
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Old 04-03-2014, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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I doubt that very much, you can find players in every draft you just have to develop them.
The last draft that had this much talent (or close) was 2011. Look at some of the teams picking at the top - and how their selection impacted their teams.

1. Carolina - Cam Newton +
2. Denver - Von Miller +
3. Buffalo - Marcel Dareus =
4. Cincinnati - A. J. Green +
5. Arizona - Patrick Peterson +
6. Atlanta (via trade) - Julio Jones = (injuries keep it from being +)
7. San Francisco - Aldon Smith +
8. Tennessee - Jake Locker -
9. Dallas - Tyron Smith +
10. Jacksonville - Blaine Gabbert -

The teams that hit on their picks developed into playoff teams - or close to playoff teams (Cardinals would have been in almost any other division). When Julio is healthy, Atlanta is a playoff team (despite glaring weaknesses as a team). If you miss on 1st RD picks, you put yourself well behind the pack. If you do it in a very talented draft, the issue is magnified.
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Old 04-03-2014, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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The last draft that had this much talent (or close) was 2011. Look at some of the teams picking at the top - and how their selection impacted their teams.

1. Carolina - Cam Newton +
2. Denver - Von Miller +
3. Buffalo - Marcel Dareus =
4. Cincinnati - A. J. Green +
5. Arizona - Patrick Peterson +
6. Atlanta (via trade) - Julio Jones = (injuries keep it from being +)
7. San Francisco - Aldon Smith +
8. Tennessee - Jake Locker -
9. Dallas - Tyron Smith +
10. Jacksonville - Blaine Gabbert -

The teams that hit on their picks developed into playoff teams - or close to playoff teams (Cardinals would have been in almost any other division). When Julio is healthy, Atlanta is a playoff team (despite glaring weaknesses as a team). If you miss on 1st RD picks, you put yourself well behind the pack. If you do it in a very talented draft, the issue is magnified.
Yeah, the point is that having a bad draft always sucks. However, to say that a team will be left behind for a decade because of one bad draft is hyperbole. The VAST majority of drafted players will not be on the team that drafted them in 10 years.

I'm glad you brought up the 2011 NFL draft because it proves my point exactly. The Indianapolis Colts had one of the worst drafts you'll see that year. The next year they drafted a franchise QB and are instantly back to being a playoff team.

Obviously that's a rare circumstance but the fact is that it's very rare that a single draft class is going to decide whether a team is competitive or not. I'll all but guarantee that there will be at least one team who has a bad draft this year and is still able to be competitive in the future.
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Old 04-03-2014, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, the point is that having a bad draft always sucks. However, to say that a team will be left behind for a decade because of one bad draft is hyperbole. The VAST majority of drafted players will not be on the team that drafted them in 10 years.

I'm glad you brought up the 2011 NFL draft because it proves my point exactly. The Indianapolis Colts had one of the worst drafts you'll see that year. The next year they drafted a franchise QB and are instantly back to being a playoff team.

Obviously that's a rare circumstance but the fact is that it's very rare that a single draft class is going to decide whether a team is competitive or not. I'll all but guarantee that there will be at least one team who has a bad draft this year and is still able to be competitive in the future.
With the way things are designed in the NFL, it's possible to overcome anything if you start doing things right. The Colts are an extreme example. Luck elevates that team more than any young QB should be expected to. But you're definitely setting the franchise back more than in most drafts. If you blew last year's draft, so did half the league. Not a lot of "great" players. If you blow this draft - just by the sheer volume of talent - a much higher percentage of teams are going to make themselves significantly better, and you'll be looking up at some teams.
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Old 04-03-2014, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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I have no problem with this thought process and I agree with it. I just dislike the amount of hyperbole some people throw around to try to prove their points.

Also just a couple things to point out about your 2011 draft example

- Cam Newton is a huge reason why the Panthers have turned things around but let's not forget that their improved defense was the reason they made the playoffs this past season. None of the key pieces of that defense were drafted in 2011.

- The Falcons should be ignored as they were a playoff team before Julio Jones and had traded up into the top 10.

- Denver's acquisition of Peyton Manning is a huge reason why they elevated themselves into an elite team in the league.

- The team picking 11th that year (Houston) got the best player in the draft and are currently picking 1st overall

Again, having a bad draft is always going to hurt a team and the talent in this draft will make that even more true than it usually is. With that said, it's ridiculous to say that teams are going to struggle for a decade if they screw up this draft. That's the point that I had a problem with.
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Old 04-04-2014, 06:12 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by E_Bird View Post
The last draft that had this much talent (or close) was 2011. Look at some of the teams picking at the top - and how their selection impacted their teams.

1. Carolina - Cam Newton +
2. Denver - Von Miller +
3. Buffalo - Marcel Dareus =
4. Cincinnati - A. J. Green +
5. Arizona - Patrick Peterson +
6. Atlanta (via trade) - Julio Jones = (injuries keep it from being +)
7. San Francisco - Aldon Smith +
8. Tennessee - Jake Locker -
9. Dallas - Tyron Smith +
10. Jacksonville - Blaine Gabbert -

The teams that hit on their picks developed into playoff teams - or close to playoff teams (Cardinals would have been in almost any other division). When Julio is healthy, Atlanta is a playoff team (despite glaring weaknesses as a team). If you miss on 1st RD picks, you put yourself well behind the pack. If you do it in a very talented draft, the issue is magnified.
The Titans and Jags missed on QB's who should never have been picked where they were, that is what those picks showed. They both have had massive flaws in college that were obvious on tape.


Plus you also have to consider which of those players were the reason for the turn around, i don't think one of those players were the sole reason for it. Not even cam as it was the defensive this year that made the panthers more competitive although cam has improved.

Miller hardly played this year and denver were in the superbowl because of manning.

AJ Green is a great player but they also drafted Dalton and the defense is very good.

Atlanta were already a playoff team.

Aldon Smith has been very good aswell but that whole front 7 is elite and the biggest difference pre and post Aldon Smith is harbaugh.

Cardinals and Dallas have not been to the playoffs.

Look at the seahawks, they built a superbowl team with late round picks while their first rounders have not been great.
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Old 04-04-2014, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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The Titans and Jags missed on QB's who should never have been picked where they were, that is what those picks showed. They both have had massive flaws in college that were obvious on tape.


Plus you also have to consider which of those players were the reason for the turn around, i don't think one of those players were the sole reason for it. Not even cam as it was the defensive this year that made the panthers more competitive although cam has improved.

Miller hardly played this year and denver were in the superbowl because of manning.

AJ Green is a great player but they also drafted Dalton and the defense is very good.

Atlanta were already a playoff team.

Aldon Smith has been very good aswell but that whole front 7 is elite and the biggest difference pre and post Aldon Smith is harbaugh.

Cardinals and Dallas have not been to the playoffs.

Look at the seahawks, they built a superbowl team with late round picks while their first rounders have not been great.
No one in the NFL is ever going to be the sole reason for success. Take out Atlanta if you'd like. Of the six teams drafting in the top 10 that hit on their picks, 4 out of 6 have since made the playoffs, and the other two have been close. Of the four teams with neutral or negative scores on those draft picks, Atlanta is the only team to make the playoffs. Houston - the 11th pick - made the playoffs twice with Watt.
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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No one in the NFL is ever going to be the sole reason for success. Take out Atlanta if you'd like. Of the six teams drafting in the top 10 that hit on their picks, 4 out of 6 have since made the playoffs, and the other two have been close. Of the four teams with neutral or negative scores on those draft picks, Atlanta is the only team to make the playoffs. Houston - the 11th pick - made the playoffs twice with Watt.

I understand that but the common denominator is QB.

Gabbert is terrible and Locker is always injured, the teams that have made the playoffs from your list have atleast decent QB play. The Bills had Fitzpatrick who is only going to take you so far and i don't think manuel is the answer either.

Schuab at one point before he fell off a cliff this year was a good QB.

Romo is the outlier.
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Old 04-04-2014, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Teams will regret passing up on Teddy for Manziel or Bortles.
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Old 04-04-2014, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Teams will regret passing up on Teddy for Manziel or Bortles.
Not a stretch.
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Old 04-04-2014, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Teams will regret passing up on Teddy for Manziel or Bortles.
I agree 100%.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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So many don't see physical off the charts talent in Teddy that they see in Bortles or even Manziel and Carr with the big arms and Manziels athletic ability.

Teddy ripped a part a Dan Quinn top 10 defense with a bunch of no name WRs prospects that if lucky, (Devonte Parker a 3rd/4th round talent at best). Teddy's IQ is off the charts. He can sit back and dissect a defense and carve up like a surgeon. It's how Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers work. None of them have big arms or physically imposing athletes. They win because they process the game and can read defenses much faster than most.
Luck is another guy and I put Teddy right behind Luck in terms of Football IQ, pocket presence, and understanding of the game. His physical skills are all on par in terms of Arm strength, build, durability. His release and accuracy are top notch.

Is the game changing? Yes. But the game still requires a QB that can win from the pocket. Wilson is a dual threat but can win inside the pocket. Guys like RG III and Cam Newton learned that in year 2, they actually have to develop inside the pocket. Cam did an exceptional job in year 3. Manziel I see having success year 1, most of it, but there is a time he needs to develop his game as a pocket QB. A pro day doesn't do it.
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Old 04-04-2014, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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The biggest thing holding Teddy's game back right now is his inability to hit the deep ball with any kind of consistency. I don't think you can be an elite QB without being able to threaten the big play against a defense. Also his mechanics still need some work as well.

I still feel like Teddy has the skills to be a franchise QB for all of the reasons that you listed. However, it has become apparent to me that he needs more work than I originally thought. He's still my #1 QB by a wide margin though. I might not take him over Clowney if I were the Texans but I'd take him over any other prospect in the draft if I needed a QB. I just feel that the chances of him becoming an Alex Smith type QB are greater than I originally thought. That's still far better than what I'd expect Bortles or Manziel to become though.

I think there's a pretty high chance that Bortles falls somewhere in the range of a Christian Ponder and a Jake Locker. Basically a guy that in 3 years we're wondering if the team that drafted him still sees him as their franchise guy.

For Manziel I could literally see him ending up anywhere from a complete bust to a top 10 QB in 3 or 4 years. If he's able to adjust his game to the NFL he'll succeed but that's still a pretty big IF in my opinion.
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Old 04-04-2014, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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I do like the Matt Ryan comparison for Teddy. Although, I think any team drafting him has to hope they get more than that.

Because Matt Ryan sucks.
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