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Old 05-13-2014, 01:10 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Anything less than 10 wins would disappoint me for the team.

I'm hoping for 27+ ppg from the offense and 21 ppg or less from the defense.
I like those #'s.
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:08 AM    (permalink
detroit4life
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I'd still like to put in a good word for Bush. Few people realize how much Bush impacts a game by creating space for our other WR's. Defenses cannot ignore him and must account for him on every play, reducing the coverage on our other WR's/TE's and he can be counted on for a 1000 yards rushing. Sure, he fumbles the ball more than I would like, but he opens up the field for his teammates even if he doesn't touch the ball.

If we cannot consistently score with this offense, than Stafford may be labelled a flop. We should be no worse than 2nd in our Division and make a serious run at the playoffs.
I understand what Bush does for this offense, but from someone who harps on positional value like a broken record I think it's funny that you seem to not mind us paying him like a starting CB.

We have an offense that has a lethal passing attack with 2 TE's on the field and a RB in Bell who can also catch the ball out of the backfield and make a defense pay if they don't account for him. Yes we need a RB who is a threat to go to the house like bush, but now a days you can get the top RB in the draft in the second round and a quality starter in the 3rd. I don't think there is any reason to continue to pay Bush that kind of money. Especially when the guy is atop the league in fumbles.

At the very least we should approach him about a pay cut. RBs simply don't get close to that value in this league anymore and if he would be wise to take a pay cut over us cutting him as he wouldn't find close to his contract in free agency.
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Old 05-13-2014, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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I'd still like to put in a good word for Bush. Few people realize how much Bush impacts a game by creating space for our other WR's. Defenses cannot ignore him and must account for him on every play, reducing the coverage on our other WR's/TE's and he can be counted on for a 1000 yards rushing. Sure, he fumbles the ball more than I would like, but he opens up the field for his teammates even if he doesn't touch the ball.

If we cannot consistently score with this offense, than Stafford may be labelled a flop. We should be no worse than 2nd in our Division and make a serious run at the playoffs.
Stafford is great at moving the ball and scoring points when the Lions offense isn't turning it over. Even with Calvin and RBs with no number 2 or 3 and a slow TE. Not just Stafford's fault though, 15 fumbles too on the offense. (12 non Stafford)

Interesting stat I saw
Peyton 2 years before Caldwell arrived, 41 picks
Stafford 2 years before Caldwell arrived, 39 picks

This isn't Caldwell's first time he had to get a good QB to reign in the picks. And if he can do it again, I expect huge things from Stafford.

I also think it's telling that the year Stafford's number 2 and number 3 WR weapons stayed healthy(2011) with Calvin and Pettigrew. He threw 41 TDs. Even without Best for 10 games.
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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I swear, I will refute and be unbearable on this point forever.... Jim Caldwell had nothing to do with Peyton Manning's greatness. Tony Dungy took over and they drafted Freeney, end of story.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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I swear, I will refute and be unbearable on this point forever.... Jim Caldwell had nothing to do with Peyton Manning's greatness. Tony Dungy took over and they drafted Freeney, end of story.
Peyton disagrees and so do the stats. Peyton was turnover prone too early. More weapons were added too for Peyton as well. Wayne and clark. Talking 2002
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Old 05-14-2014, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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Can we please not re-hash an argument from January.

Let Stafford prove it on the field at this point. He has the weapons a QB can only dream of and we have done everything we can to support him and help him take his game to an elite level. The rest is on him. Mayhew has gone all in on him and this now he gets to prove it. No excuses no nothing.
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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I understand what Bush does for this offense, but from someone who harps on positional value like a broken record I think it's funny that you seem to not mind us paying him like a starting CB.

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Obviously, Mayhew has made the decision to give Stafford all the offensive weapons, he could ever want and Bush also provides us with a 1,000 yards rushing. Bush creates space on offense, something fans don't always see on a play. When he comes out into the flats on a passing play, in a lot of cases the nickel CB will cover him forcing an ILB on the TE and a LB on the 3rd WR, that's what creating space does, it puts tremendous pressure on the defense to cover all these threats. That's the way New orleans used him and then Sproles, and that is why they had so many 1,000 yard receivers.
We have an offense that has a lethal passing attack with 2 TE's on the field and a RB in Bell who can also catch the ball out of the backfield and make a defense pay if they don't account for him. Yes we need a RB who is a threat to go to the house like bush, but now a days you can get the top RB in the draft in the second round and a quality starter in the 3rd. I don't think there is any reason to continue to pay Bush that kind of money. Especially when the guy is atop the league in fumbles.

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Bell isn't the same kind of threat, on passing plays he only requires an ILBer to cover him not a nickel CB. Bush is special on passing plays anyway you look at it. He fits our offense to a tee. Could we find another RB who can gain a 1,000 yards and be a similar threat in the passing attack, I'm not as sure as you. Our team's OL is designed for pass protection and fully comitted to that theme, only a few RB's can be really effective in it and while nobody can argue that a 1,000 yard rusher can be found in rounds 2 or 3, there is no guarantee that we can find one there?

Look, I hate the fumbles just like everybody does and I'm not sure we can have the luxury of keeping a Bush for much longer, he is expensive, but while we have him, he makes our passing attack that much stronger and Mayhew obviously wants to see the effects next season. If he has to be a cap casualty next off season, so be it, but for this coming season, I want to see the full offense in being, to see how far it can carry us.
At the very least we should approach him about a pay cut. RBs simply don't get close to that value in this league anymore and if he would be wise to take a pay cut over us cutting him as he wouldn't find close to his contract in free agency.
That's life in the NFL, maybe he goes along, maybe not, but let's enjoy the coming season and worry about the roster in another year.
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I swear, I will refute and be unbearable on this point forever.... Jim Caldwell had nothing to do with Peyton Manning's greatness. Tony Dungy took over and they drafted Freeney, end of story.
Look, we are going to find out this year if Caldwell can get the job done. I wasn't crazy about the hire but not a lot of top HCing prospect want to come to a city with the record our franchise has.

Give the guy a chance, really, what other choice do we have? He either gets the job done or we try somebody else. Right now, he is all we got, so let's support him till he leaves us no choice but to demand a new guy should it come to that.

If he turns us into a winner, I really don't care what effect he had on Peyton, I pmly will care that he turned Stafford into a winner.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Look, we are going to find out this year if Caldwell can get the job done. I wasn't crazy about the hire but not a lot of top HCing prospect want to come to a city with the record our franchise has.

Give the guy a chance, really, what other choice do we have? He either gets the job done or we try somebody else. Right now, he is all we got, so let's support him till he leaves us no choice but to demand a new guy should it come to that.

If he turns us into a winner, I really don't care what effect he had on Peyton, I pmly will care that he turned Stafford into a winner.
Very true. Can't really changes peoples faith in anyone at this point. You can give examples but they can choose to take it or not take it and apply it to Staffford. The truth is we don't know of Caldwell can do it again. They have a good setup though to do it.

Agreed there is no excuses barring major injuries to his weapons again. We know half a season of Burleson/gimpy Broyles and Pettigrew didn't cut it to make teams pay for doubling Calvin. Now it's Tate and Ebrons turn with innovative coaching hopefully. Stafford can do exactly what he did last year and cut down on the picks by 6 or 7 and we will all be very happy.
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I swear, I will refute and be unbearable on this point forever.... Jim Caldwell had nothing to do with Peyton Manning's greatness. Tony Dungy took over and they drafted Freeney, end of story.
ah, Freeney and Dungy turned his stats around.........
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Systems produce stats. The defense was a high pressure 3rd down defense. Peyton built the lead then the defense would close it out with sacks on third down. Perfect synergy. Led to easier throws and a turn around of the culture. I watched every Colts game from 1994-now. It was Dungy and the Tampa 2.

We need better safety play and maximize our edge pressure.
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Old 05-15-2014, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Systems produce stats. The defense was a high pressure 3rd down defense. Peyton built the lead then the defense would close it out with sacks on third down. Perfect synergy. Led to easier throws and a turn around of the culture. I watched every Colts game from 1994-now. It was Dungy and the Tampa 2.

We need better safety play and maximize our edge pressure.
Lions were top 5 in total pressure for sacks/hits/hurries and were best in the leagues in 3rd down % for stops. Caldwell came with Dungy. He helped Peyton get the leads and reduce the picks.
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Old 05-15-2014, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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I'm sure that Phil Jackson's assistant coach helped make Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant the great players that they became.
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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I'm not necessarily trying to give Caldwell credit for Manning's success, but I really don't get the football to basketball analogy. An offensive coordinator on a team with a defensive-minded head coach has a lot more to do with the development of his offensive players than an assistant coach in the NBA does.
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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I'm saying that a guy can't be a quarterback guru when all of his pupils suck except for having kind of coached one the greatest of all time. I could have been coaching Manning or Jordan with that setup.

And I don't care what anyone says, Manning runs Tom Moore's offense and not Caldwell's.

Never forget the hype that these gurus always say they can do vs actual results. Marty Mornhinweg curing Vick when he first returned to Philly? Running around with a football on a stick... a revamped offense, disciplined defense, solid locker room, and luck will do more for Stafford than anything else.

Is Jim Bob Cooter responsible for Manning last year?

Caldwell's impact will be on defense and the locker room... hopefully.
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Manning himself credits Caldwell and called the lions personally. He was with Tom Moore when he threw 41 picks in 2 years pre Caldwell

But anyway caruran Reid signed. Love the new cba. Draft picks signed quickly
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I'm sure that Phil Jackson's assistant coach helped make Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant the great players that they became.
Hard to argue that Phil and his systems helped them become more winning players though.
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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I'm saying that a guy can't be a quarterback guru when all of his pupils suck except for having kind of coached one the greatest of all time. I could have been coaching Manning or Jordan with that setup.

And I don't care what anyone says, Manning runs Tom Moore's offense and not Caldwell's.

Never forget the hype that these gurus always say they can do vs actual results. Marty Mornhinweg curing Vick when he first returned to Philly? Running around with a football on a stick... a revamped offense, disciplined defense, solid locker room, and luck will do more for Stafford than anything else.

Is Jim Bob Cooter responsible for Manning last year?

Caldwell's impact will be on defense and the locker room... hopefully.
nobody ever said he was running Caldwell's offense, but Caldwell definitely tweaked his mechanics and improved his footwork and focus on repetition.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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And Flacco didn't suck in 2012. 33 TDs and 10 ints with reg season and playoffs with the proper amount of weapons(Boldin, Smith, Pitta) and Oline help. If Stafford had that I'd do a backflip from happiness.

2013 Flacco lost Pitta most of the year, Boldin and his Oline sucked. Need more than just coaching. Lions added both coaching and weapons for a reason.
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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and Ray Rice sucked. Even Dickson got hurt
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Believe whatever you guys want to believe but Manning was already great and he never turned Flacco into anything he wasn't already. Caldwell is a born subordinate and now he's leading our team. He has absolutely nothing going for him except riding other people's coattails. I don't care what kind words Peyton said when Caldwell was hired. I would rather have Marinelli as coach and that's saying a lot. Stating that Caldwell is anything other than one of the worst coaches in the league is one of the most infuriating statements a person can make. Who in the world has he developed? Peyton...gtfo with that, Flacco...nope... Curtis Painter?

Flacco didn't suck in 2012... yeah no kidding... his stats looked remarkably similar to his normal numbers for his career.
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Old 05-17-2014, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
Believe whatever you guys want to believe but Manning was already great and he never turned Flacco into anything he wasn't already. Caldwell is a born subordinate and now he's leading our team. He has absolutely nothing going for him except riding other people's coattails. I don't care what kind words Peyton said when Caldwell was hired. I would rather have Marinelli as coach and that's saying a lot. Stating that Caldwell is anything other than one of the worst coaches in the league is one of the most infuriating statements a person can make. Who in the world has he developed? Peyton...gtfo with that, Flacco...nope... Curtis Painter?

Flacco didn't suck in 2012... yeah no kidding... his stats looked remarkably similar to his normal numbers for his career.
Well, you could be right on although I think Caldwell was a solid OC, as a HC, I have serious doubts, but I'm prepared to see out the season and hope for the best, what choice do we have? I'm just hoping our new owner won't have the patience of his father and will be way more swift if things don't go well.

I think there is still a lot of deadwood left over from his father's reign, that needs to go almost everywhere within our organization. I hope he brings a professionalism to our management team. That said, sometimes second go around HC's actually can surprise you, BB did in NE after he was canned by Cleveland and there are others, so like I said, Caldwell is our HC, what good does it do to jump all over him before we see the results?
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:32 AM    (permalink
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Let's just pray that the OC calls the plays and Caldwell performs the Mike Tomlin role for us.
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
Believe whatever you guys want to believe but Manning was already great and he never turned Flacco into anything he wasn't already. Caldwell is a born subordinate and now he's leading our team. He has absolutely nothing going for him except riding other people's coattails. I don't care what kind words Peyton said when Caldwell was hired. I would rather have Marinelli as coach and that's saying a lot. Stating that Caldwell is anything other than one of the worst coaches in the league is one of the most infuriating statements a person can make. Who in the world has he developed? Peyton...gtfo with that, Flacco...nope... Curtis Painter?

Flacco didn't suck in 2012... yeah no kidding... his stats looked remarkably similar to his normal numbers for his career.
Lol, if Caldwell is anything he's a leader of men. Certainly not a "subordinate". He's been to a SB as both HC and OC(and his promotion to this role was arguably the #1 reason that team went to said SB). All he did was get incredibly better play from Manning and Flacco than they were preveiously giving their teams. But hey, pretend he's one of the worst coaches if it makes you feel better
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Old 05-18-2014, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Well, you could be right on although I think Caldwell was a solid OC, as a HC, I have serious doubts, but I'm prepared to see out the season and hope for the best, what choice do we have? I'm just hoping our new owner won't have the patience of his father and will be way more swift if things don't go well.

I think there is still a lot of deadwood left over from his father's reign, that needs to go almost everywhere within our organization. I hope he brings a professionalism to our management team. That said, sometimes second go around HC's actually can surprise you, BB did in NE after he was canned by Cleveland and there are others, so like I said, Caldwell is our HC, what good does it do to jump all over him before we see the results?
This is a strange opinion to me. He's rarely been an OC and while he got Flacco going as I mentioned above, his real strengths have always been more in his leadership a lot more than playcalling. Working with QBs and leading men.
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