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Old 06-06-2014, 12:43 PM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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It went from "No way does he deserve that kind of money, the Niners are screwed" to "Wow, he got screwed by the Niners front office and his representation, no way should he have taken that kind of deal" within 24 hours.

Not so sure Iupati is the odd man out. I still say it comes down who can work out the most team friendly deal. I think Crabs is going to want to test the market. He just strikes me as a guy who wants see his true value on the open market. Iupati seems like a guy who could take a more team-friendly extension. And if that's the case, he would be the logical re-sign. But Iupati also hasn't developed in pass protection like he should have by now. Granted he played with a bum shoulder and MCL sprain for most of last season, he looked awful though. And he's getting that 'injury prone' label attached to his name as well. So it may be as simple as Baalke not wanting him back. A lot will ride on how good Marcus Martin and Looney look during TC and what the staff feels about them long-term.

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Old 06-06-2014, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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It went from "No way does he deserve that kind of money, the Niners are screwed" to "Wow, he got screwed by the Niners front office and his representation, no way should he have taken that kind of deal" within 24 hours.
So, this offseason he's gone from being a rapist to being raped.

We've come full circle.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Just make sure Iupati walks so he can become a Giant next year. K? Thnx.
Proceed to overpay my friend. Proceed.
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Old 06-06-2014, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Proceed to overpay my friend. Proceed.
We really don't have much of a choice tbh. Our OL is trash.
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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No doubt he struggled, but those were his ONLY two options in the passing game. And considering VD is double teamed as soon as he steps in the field by most defenses, that leaves you with one viable option on most Sundays. And the running game is only viable if the passing game is somewhat formidable and we struggled mightily with the running game to start last season because there were no viable threats in the passing game. Teams just stacked the box and dared us to find anyone other than VD and Boldin open. We also threw less than any other team in the league, including the Hawks so there's that also. It ALL has to be factored into his numbers from last year, including his own shortcomings.
This is such a dubious claim. I've seen enough 49ers fans say something along these lines that I decided to go to the coaches film and actually check it out for myself. VD barely got a second thought by most defenses. He barely gets jammed at the LOS, rerouted by LB's, or given a special assignment by an opposing team's cover man. I probably watched 70ish pass plays from a spattering of games (GB, SEA1, TB, STL1, and NO). I can only say I saw 1 play where the other team had a clear pre-snap design to double Davis (10:10 Q1 against Tampa). If there are games or plays where this is the case let me know, but as of what I've seen there is nothing to suggest that this is true.

Maybe other team's should because Davis is certainly an effective pass catcher, but like the previous Jermichael Finley argument, there really isn't any film evidence to support this theory. Which is fine because it's rare that any player truly gets double covered by design.

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Old 06-08-2014, 01:57 AM    (permalink
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This is such a dubious claim. I've seen enough 49ers fans say something along these lines that I decided to go to the coaches film and actually check it out for myself. VD barely got a second thought by most defenses. He barely gets jammed at the LOS, rerouted by LB's, or given a special assignment by an opposing team's cover man. I probably watched 70ish pass plays from a spattering of games (GB, SEA1, TB, STL1, and NO). I can only say I saw 1 play where the other team had a clear pre-snap design to double Davis (10:10 Q1 against Tampa). If there are games or plays where this is the case let me know, but as of what I've seen there is nothing to suggest that this is true.

Maybe other team's should because Davis is certainly an effective pass catcher, but like the previous Jermichael Finley argument, there really isn't any film evidence to support this theory. Which is fine because it's rare that any player truly gets double covered by design.
Maybe "doubled" wasn't the right word. He sees a lot of bracketed coverage which isn't a true double coverage, but it slides coverage to his area, which is essentially like putting an extra defender in his area. The safety usually ends up on his side of the field because of his speed.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Maybe "doubled" wasn't the right word. He sees a lot of bracketed coverage which isn't a true double coverage, but it slides coverage to his area, which is essentially like putting an extra defender in his area. The safety usually ends up on his side of the field because of his speed.
This is also a dubious claim. Bracketed coverage is actually quite uncommon with Davis as well. Are there plays where Davis sees extra attention, yes. However, they are actually pretty few and far between. When he's split out he's not usually seeing bracketed coverage, and in most cases when a safety is moving over to his side of the field is because they are in their trips look.

I think it's an anecdotal thing that was probably taken from a beat writer or a fan from a given game, and then it snowballed into this assumption that Davis is seeing all this attention every game, which from watching the coaches film, is not true.
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Old 06-08-2014, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Are you referring to games with or without Crabtree?

And you even mention "trips" which only happens a couple snaps a game.
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Old 06-08-2014, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Are you referring to games with or without Crabtree?

And you even mention "trips" which only happens a couple snaps a game.
I've looked at both because I figured there may be a difference, and trips sets are actually quite common in the 49ers playbook. It looks like twins to one side, but Vernon or somebody else will motion across to overload one side.

I just looked at the first half of the Arizona game to verify, and the trips set happened 5-6 times in the first half of the week 6 game alone.

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Old 06-08-2014, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Okay. Misunderstanding your "trips" reference. You're counting VD as one of them. Got ya.

They regularly use 2 TE sets and one tends to motion. I wouldn't use the same term as 3 WRs, however. Definite distinction in Roman's offense.
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Old 06-08-2014, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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This is also a dubious claim. Bracketed coverage is actually quite uncommon with Davis as well. Are there plays where Davis sees extra attention, yes. However, they are actually pretty few and far between. When he's split out he's not usually seeing bracketed coverage, and in most cases when a safety is moving over to his side of the field is because they are in their trips look.

I think it's an anecdotal thing that was probably taken from a beat writer or a fan from a given game, and then it snowballed into this assumption that Davis is seeing all this attention every game, which from watching the coaches film, is not true.
LOL, yea sure its been made up all these years because its really not on film.

I no longer have access to the All-22 from last season myslef so I cant break down excatly which play in which particular game shows evidence of this but this a breakdown from the Carolina game in in the playoffs. Its about 12 pages worth of discussion but the evidence is clearly there.

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/ni...-coaches-film/
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Old 06-08-2014, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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LOL, yea sure its been made up all these years because its really not on film.

I no longer have access to the All-22 from last season myslef so I cant break down excatly which play in which particular game shows evidence of this but this a breakdown from the Carolina game in in the playoffs. Its about 12 pages worth of discussion but the evidence is clearly there.

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/ni...-coaches-film/
I am so glad you posted this Vafy-ya. This is exactly the kind of thing that clues me into why people like yourself think the way that you do. The thing is that you read things like this, see a handful of plays, and extrapolate this to the assumption that it happens every play. This isn't unique to 49erswebzone.com, but is instead a plague that happens on patsfan.com, jetsinsider.com, or wherever.

The thing is that shots like these show you plays where VD was double bracketed to prove a point, and the author of those posts is correct. There are instances where VD was double bracketed. However, what he doesn't show you is the other plays that he was not, and in fact other receivers got the attention he did instead.

Plays like these

Play 1:






Play 2:






Play 3:





And many, many more.

The truth of the matter is that Vernon Davis did see a lot more attention in this game than he did in the others I watched, but "doubled covered/double bracketed almost whenever he steps on the field" is still laughably false.

It's up to you as a fan to be able to read these kind of things, and fill in the context around it. Heavy coverage on a given play or a given subset of plays can be a result of player error, down, situation, personnel, or in some instances special coverage objectives. I have no doubt that the Panthers had some special coverage objectives to minimize Davis's impact on the game, but it certainly was not to "double" Vernon most plays.

If you wanted to say something like Vernon's presence down the middle holds safeties, challenges traditional personnel sets, or something more vague but more likely true, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's this double coverage on every play that sets me off the same way the Finley argument did, because it's simply not true.

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Old 06-08-2014, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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It's really difficult to see without a gif file or something.
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Old 06-08-2014, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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I am so glad you posted this Vafy-ya. This is exactly the kind of thing that clues me into why people like yourself think the way that you do. The thing is that you read things like this, see a handful of plays, and extrapolate this to the assumption that it happens every play. This isn't unique to 49erswebzone.com, but is instead a plague that happens on patsfan.com, jetsinsider.com, or wherever.

The thing is that shots like these show you plays where VD was double bracketed to prove a point, and the author of those posts is correct. There are instances where VD was double bracketed. However, what he doesn't show you is the other plays that he was not, and in fact other receivers got the attention he did instead.

The truth of the matter is that Vernon Davis did see a lot more attention in this game than he did in the others I watched, but "doubled covered/double bracketed almost whenever he steps on the field" is still laughably false.

It's up to you as a fan to be able to read these kind of things, and fill in the context around it. Heavy coverage on a given play or a given subset of plays can be a result of player error, down, situation, personnel, or in some instances special coverage objectives. I have no doubt that the Panthers had some special coverage objectives to minimize Davis's impact on the game, but it certainly was not to "double" Vernon most plays.

If you wanted to say something like Vernon's presence down the middle holds safeties, challenges traditional personnel sets, or something more vague but more likely true, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's this double coverage on every play that sets me off the same way the Finley argument did, because it's simply not true.
First, let's get one thing clear. I don't rely on others for my football information. I used this thread as an example because like I said, I no longer have access to the All-22. I knew there were clear examples of VD getting the kind of attention I was mentioning. I watch enough football and rely on what MY eyes tell me. And my eyes tell me VD does see special atention/coverages however you want to spin it, more often than not. I didn't need any other fan to tell be that or break it down to me. Its been there, on flim, for at least 4 years now. And it hasn't just been Niner fans and beat writers saying it either.

Now to the "double-covered every play" comment. I already owned up to that as not being an accurate statement. Only one guy I've seen in the league that's truly "double-covered" more often than not is Megatron. Sure it was hyperbole. I was trying to make the point that when most defenses key on stopping the pass when they face us, they key-in on VD first because the match-up problems he presents. What your stills fail to address is how Roman uses a multitude of pre-snaps motioning to get VD into spots where he has a free release or can't be bumped off the line. That's the game within the game. Because it was evident before JH and Roman arrived here, that teams had not problem locating and mirroring VD, pre-snap. Now even good defenses lose track of players or have blown coverages from time to time like you eluded to. But just beacuse he isn't bracketed every single play doesn't mean the defense just didn't care. 49ers coaches get paid to scheme too you know. And they do a pretty good job putting VD in position to where you can't bracket him, as I alluded to early with alot lot of pre-snap shifting.

Now last year the emergence of the CK/Boldin dynamic really helped focus attention away from VD. CK clearly favored throwing to Boldin, to a fault at times. Just off memory, the Bucs game comes to mind as one where you could clearly see a team focused on Boldin, more so than VD. And I think that chemistry they developed had a lot to do with that. But I still believe DCs always want to make they're players aware of where VD is on the field, more often than not. Simply because he's the only one with the speed to challenge a defense vertically and he's shown the ability to get behind a defense if he isn't accounted for.

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Old 06-08-2014, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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And Davis is on record as saying that he had far fewer defenders keyed on him since the arrival of Anquan Boldin than at any point in his career.
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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2013 31% of passes were to Boldin

In November Vincent Jackson was leading the NFL in most favorite WR at 33%

2010 season numbers of target %
http://www.nfl.com/fantasyfootball/s...-to-wr-success

Some neat info from 2013
http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/2/2...passing-charts
http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/2/1...passing-charts

The guys with fewer defenders on them, sometimes no defender, are the RBs.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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I've heard Niner fans claim at varying times that Davis was double teamed almost every snap, Crabtree was doubled almost every snap, and that Boldin was doubled almost every snap.

Kaepernick must be lucky to ever complete a pass if those are all true.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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$61 million is a lot but Matt Stafford has made over $84 million in guaranteed money from his rookie contract and extension and he hasnt exactly brought the lions to glory.

Luck is going to make so much money with the current market
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
I've heard Niner fans claim at varying times that Davis was double teamed almost every snap, Crabtree was doubled almost every snap, and that Boldin was doubled almost every snap.

Kaepernick must be lucky to ever complete a pass if those are all true.

If all those guys are always doubled, his 3rd wr should have more than 113 yards...
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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We r all the stoopid
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
I've heard Niner fans claim at varying times that Davis was double teamed almost every snap, Crabtree was doubled almost every snap, and that Boldin was doubled almost every snap.

Kaepernick must be lucky to ever complete a pass if those are all true.
Now I know why Kapernick runs it all the time. Teams are at least dropping 6 into coverage and just rushing 3 or less each time. No wonder he has yet to progress as a passer.
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