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Old 05-21-2014, 07:37 AM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by cgf (Rosebud) View Post
The original question was actually whether Gore is special as a RB or not, and while his pass blocking's certainly useful, and one of many things you have to respect, it is not a trait that can make him a special RB. And focusing on it to try to prop him up now takes away from the herculean efforts he had for you guys back in the dark Alex Smith days.
No...actually it was just how I said it. This was the first inquiry regarding Gore made by cmarq83:

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What is he really doing on the field that warrants such respect?
Like I said to you before, "what warrants respect". The only other previous thing said about him before that was a statement made by Niel89, not an inquiry:

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I absolutely love Gore but he just hasn't been that exceptional on the field any more. He is a solid starting back but he also had just an okay year last year and is 31 now.
If we're going to nitpick about the original question that got this all started, that is what was actually stated first. And I also said in the statement of mine you quoted "in addition to other traits". I singled out his pass protection first because I feel like he is maybe the best back in the league at doing it.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to call one guy the other's backup when they're practically splitting the snaps evenly. Blocking and receiving take effort and energy too, that is why Morris is at an advantage compared to other backs, and calling him a workhorse doesn't really make sense considering he only plays an average amount of snaps. Sure he gets more carries, but he devotes all of his energy towards rushing with the football.

Take someone like Fred Jackson who played a similar number of snaps as Morris. In fact he actually played a greater % of his team's snaps than Alfred Morris did. However, he got less opportunity to run the ball, but instead went out for more routes and blocked more. In the end he ended up with the same amount of total yards. Fred Jackson's job wasn't any easier, but if you look at 1 stat in which utilization immensely favors your guy, you're going to get a biased result.

A similar argument can be made for multiple other backs.

There are plenty of backs capable of rushing for ~1300 yards in this league if given ~300 carries in 600 snaps. It's all about how each back is utilized. For Albert Morris he gets all of the glory work, but it doesn't make him a special back.

There are a bunch of other guys who bring a more complete skill set to the table, produce similar results, and are a part of more productive running back rotations than the one in Washington. That's why Alfred Morris is an average back. Just look at a similar 1 dimensional back like Legarrette Blount whose per carry career stats are a mirror to Morris's. He got a crappy contract on the open market because he is not a special back.
LeGarrette Blount wasn't considered a special RB on the open market because he's never done it for a season or been the feature back for any offense. He rushed for 700 yards last year and had ONE monster playoff game.

Alfred Morris has rushed for more yards in two seasons than Blount has rushed for in his entire 4 year career.

As for the point there are several RBs who could put up similar rushing numbers to Morris given the same number of carries, that's patently untrue.

It's not so much a question of pure running ability, but one of DURABILITY.
Many RBs are in platoon systems because the simply aren't built to take the pounding of 270+ carries a season by themselves.

Other RBs play part time because they're part time players.

Do you think Reggie Bush/Fred Jackson/CJ Spiller are capable of running the football 270-330 times in a season without falling apart??

That's why when people argue about whether certain RBs deserve HOF consideration, one of the first attributes I've argued a HOF RB absolutely has to have is durability.

That's why I've never questioned Curtis Martin's HOF candidacy. He averaged over 300+ carries a season for his career. AD is the only RB in the game today capable of approaching that number.

Teams platoon RBs when they don't really have a true #1 starting RB.

I just don't get that we're willing to name a certain RB league MVP and a surefire HOFer for essentially being a one-dimensional runner, but any other RB who averages over 1400 yards on the ground over two seasons at 4.6 yards a clip, but doesn't catch the football....average.

Not catching the football as a RB means you aren't ELITE. It doesn't mean you're an average RB.

When you call someone an average RB, to me it means that player's production can be easily replaced by another random plug-and-play RB.

As a Skins fan, if we're calling Alfred Morris an average RB because he's primarily a runner, so was Clinton Portis.



Back on topic...!

Is Stevie Johnson better than Michael Crabtree???

How much better does Stevie Johnson make the 49ers passing attack??
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Back on topic...!

Is Stevie Johnson better than Michael Crabtree???

How much better does Stevie Johnson make the 49ers passing attack??
Yes Stevie Johnson is better then Crabtree, but they both have similar skill set.

I don't see their passing attack being scary because they have 3 recievers will similar skill set in Boldin, Johnson, and Crabtree plus Kapernick is very inconsistent passer. If Kap can improve his passing then they will have at least a decent passing attack. Their strength will still be running the ball and playing defense.
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Old 05-21-2014, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Back on topic...!

Is Stevie Johnson better than Michael Crabtree???

How much better does Stevie Johnson make the 49ers passing attack??
Probably his route running. Probably speed. I think Crabtree is one of the best at breaking tackles and getting YAC though. Crabtree also has very good hands as well. From what I've seen of Johnson, he comes off to me more as a technician in terms of where his strengths lie.
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Old 05-21-2014, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Crabtree is better than Stevie Johnson. If he were in a different offense he'd be one of the most productive WRs in the NFL.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say the offense led by the greatest QB of all-time coming off a 55/10 season losing very little and getting back a star LT is going to continue to be the best in the NFL.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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Crabtree is better than Stevie Johnson. If he were in a different offense he'd be one of the most productive WRs in the NFL.
Thank you for noticing that the 49ers' offense, although efficient and effective, doesn't produce big-time stats from anyone. It's just not an explosive philosophy.
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Old 05-23-2014, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Crabtree is better than Stevie Johnson. If he were in a different offense he'd be one of the most productive WRs in the NFL.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say the offense led by the greatest QB of all-time coming off a 55/10 season losing very little and getting back a star LT is going to continue to be the best in the NFL.
Its a question that can't really be answered. Crabtree has never been the focal point of a passing offense. VD has always been the real offensive centerpeice to our passing game. You pull up any All 22 for any Niner games and its clear who is the main focal point of any defensive gameplan is, and who benefits the most from it. Its not as cut and dry to say he's better than SJ, who has produce three consecutive 1,000 yard receiving season with absolutely NO other viable receiving options around him. His hands are suspect at times but SJ would be a clear #1 on most teams IMO.

And to add, I don't think Crabs could have been as successful against Revis, when he was clearly the best CB in the league, as SJ was. I think SJ and Crabs ccompliment each other very well. But SJ, to me, is one of the best if not the best WRs against press-man in the league. And that probably played a role in why Baalke sought to make him a Niner, considering we face Sherman, Peterson, and Jenkins 6 games a year, every year.
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Old 05-23-2014, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Carolina, duh. Our billion dollar running backs will finally prove their worth their contracts. Cam Newton will start intentionally throwing high to see if Kelvin Benjamin can still catch it, and he can. Jerricho Cotchery will be crowned King of the Underrated Receivers. Greg Olsen will build a house at the first down marker. David Foucault will reveal himself to be a giant from north of The Wall, and bash in the helmets of puny defensive ends.
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Old 05-23-2014, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Thank you for noticing that the 49ers' offense, although efficient and effective, doesn't produce big-time stats from anyone. It's just not an explosive philosophy.
Harbaugh goes with what he's been successful with...he ran the same offense with Luck at Stanford....and for him not to open it up with him under center in the college game shows how much he believes in it.

He's still a douche, though.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 05-23-2014, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Harbaugh goes with what he's been successful with...he ran the same offense with Luck at Stanford....and for him not to open it up with him under center in the college game shows how much he believes in it.
I agree for the most part. To be fair though, his TEs were usually his best receiving targets at Stanford so that may have played a role in the scheme but like you said, I think its more of his pedigree. He did air it out more with Josh Johnson at SDU so he has shown a little bit of flexibility in that area. He says we'll see more 3 WR sets this year and the offense will be more 'agressive' through the air. We'll just have to wait and see if those words hold true.
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Old 05-25-2014, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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The difference is Roy Helu is Alfred Morris' backup, they aren't splitting carries.
That would be like taking Adrian Peterson's total carries and rushing yards and comparing those to an offense that splits carries roughly even between two backs.

The bottom line production may be similar, but the two players versus one isn't the same at all.

All it means is that modern NFL teams can cobble together a productive rushing attack without a primary runner.

Most teams don't have a feature RB anymore because most RBs can't carry the load for an entire season.

Lesean McCoy and Bryce Brown had about the same carry breakdown as Helu and Morris; you wouldn't dare say that was a two-back system. Bryce Brown is Shady's backup. They weren't interchangeable.

You're using yards from scrimmage to diminish the value of pure rushing yards.

Shady McCoy was impactful as a receiver(@50 rec/500 yds), but it was his running ability from the LOS that drove that Philly offense.

I just don't subscribe to the idea that we define RBs by yards from scrimmage first and rushing yards 2nd.

Total impact on the game?? Yards from scrimmage is a fine metric.
Primary role in the offense?? Ability to run the ball cannot be overstated.

In fact I would say a RB's ability to block on passing downs is considered more important by NFL coaches than his ability to catch the football. RBs who can't block in the passing game rarely see the field.

AD has never been a major dual threat RB in the league. Does that make him a lesser RB??

By your logic, a WR's all purpose yards should carry more weight than his pure yards from only receiving.

If you want to argue that Matt Forte, Jamaal Charles and Shady McCoy are the three best RBs in the league because of their dual threat, fine.

But that's still a long way to go to say Alfred Morris has been an average NFL RB.
Without getting in depth into Morris, I agree that a primary RB should first be judged by his rushing statistics. To do otherwise would downplay the significance of a back that can average 4.5+ YPC while carrying the ball 250+ times in a season. Teams that finish the game with more rushing attempts than their opponents win about 75% of the time. Look at the best teams in the NFL and the kinds of RB's they're drafting - Turbin, Michael, Lattimore, Hyde.

Rushing yards are more valuable than receiving yards - as rush attempts are much lower risk plays.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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Without getting in depth into Morris, I agree that a primary RB should first be judged by his rushing statistics. To do otherwise would downplay the significance of a back that can average 4.5+ YPC while carrying the ball 250+ times in a season. Teams that finish the game with more rushing attempts than their opponents win about 75% of the time. Look at the best teams in the NFL and the kinds of RB's they're drafting - Turbin, Michael, Lattimore, Hyde.

Rushing yards are more valuable than receiving yards - as rush attempts are much lower risk plays.
youre flipping the cause and the consequence though (and a lot of people do), teams run the ball because they are winning instead of the other way around which makes the effect of rushing one of the most miss-interpreted stats in football
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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youre flipping the cause and the consequence though (and a lot of people do), teams run the ball because they are winning instead of the other way around which makes the effect of rushing one of the most miss-interpreted stats in football
I think you're misreading the sentence you bolded.

If you manage to get a lead by throwing the football, the best way to preserve that lead is by effectively running the football. Not throwing it more.

Teams will even run the football heavy in the 4th quarter when they're behind by 7 or fewer points because it milks the clock and keeps the ball away from the opponent's offense.

Sure teams with double digit leads typically will run more in the 4th, but teams will also run the football more in the 4th when the score is close or they're trailing by less than a TD.

The best way to win football games late is to limit your opponent's number of possessions, and even in the pass happy modern NFL, the most efficient way to do that is with a formidable rushing attack.
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Nice to see the Cowboys getting some love in this thread. With the OL they've built and some young guys like Escobar, Williams, and Beasley hopefully taking the next step, they could be the darkhorse team to have a top 5 offense.

I do agree with some of the criticism about Garrett though. Hopefully Scott Linehan really does have a major influence and brings some innovation, because Garrett's "take what the defense gives you" garbage has gotten old, fast.
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Old 05-30-2014, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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Lemme ax you guys something here.

I was thinking about the greatness of Drew Brees, as I was looking at some photos from when I was at the Raiders @ Chargers game when Brees was still there. I cannot recall if it was December of 05 or 06.
But it was LT's team, LaDanian.
However, I vividly recall being impressed as hell with Brees even though he wasn't a star. I thought he was the best player on the field.
A game or two later, his shoulder busted, and the Chargers closed the Brees Era there in San Diego.

Since then, with Sean Payton, obviously Brees has become THE premier passer, well Manning last year too. Rodgers in 2011, etc.

That being said, it's a lot to do with the system.

Got me thinking.... why can't Matt Ryan put up similar gawdy numbers there in the Falcon-Dome? With those fricking receivers..... I don't understand why he can't get 40+ TDs, approach 5000 yards like Stafford did, Brees always does.

If not him, who will be the next QB who steps up into that rare stratosphere with Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady for a few years? Statistically.
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan needs to step up his game.

He's got enough tools on offense to carry that team deep into the playoffs.
But I think the best winning formula for the Falcons is not expecting Matt to play like an All-Pro and instead allow him to be an efficient distributor of the football.
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:04 AM    (permalink
TitansCJftw
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Originally Posted by Cigaro View Post
Carolina, duh. Our billion dollar running backs will finally prove their worth their contracts. Cam Newton will start intentionally throwing high to see if Kelvin Benjamin can still catch it, and he can. Jerricho Cotchery will be crowned King of the Underrated Receivers. Greg Olsen will build a house at the first down marker. David Foucault will reveal himself to be a giant from north of The Wall, and bash in the helmets of puny defensive ends.
For some reason i loved this
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:29 AM    (permalink
zachsaints52
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Lemme ax you guys something here.

I was thinking about the greatness of Drew Brees, as I was looking at some photos from when I was at the Raiders @ Chargers game when Brees was still there. I cannot recall if it was December of 05 or 06.
But it was LT's team, LaDanian.
However, I vividly recall being impressed as hell with Brees even though he wasn't a star. I thought he was the best player on the field.
A game or two later, his shoulder busted, and the Chargers closed the Brees Era there in San Diego.

Since then, with Sean Payton, obviously Brees has become THE premier passer, well Manning last year too. Rodgers in 2011, etc.

That being said, it's a lot to do with the system.

Got me thinking.... why can't Matt Ryan put up similar gawdy numbers there in the Falcon-Dome? With those fricking receivers..... I don't understand why he can't get 40+ TDs, approach 5000 yards like Stafford did, Brees always does.

If not him, who will be the next QB who steps up into that rare stratosphere with Brees, Manning, Rodgers, Brady for a few years? Statistically.
Every good QB has a system for them. Look at the Patriots, if I remember correctly one year Brady through around 80+% of all his passes not even 9 yards down the field, because Welker and company would get like YAC like crazy.

And if you look at his career in the NFL, Ryan always had a run first team with Turner. Turner averaged 1200 yards in his 5 seasons in Atlanta, and they had a decent defense as well (Abraham, Brooking, Milloy, etc). Now that he got the new contract, and he is expected to throw more, its showing that he was hidden with having a solid run game and opportunistic defense (sounds familiar, Mark Sanchez?).
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Old 06-02-2014, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
I really like Green Bay's offense this year and think they could do some real damage. As has been mentioned, the Broncos have a difficult schedule playing the NFC West, which may actually be the 4 toughest games they play from an offensive point of view. I could see their numbers collectively falling.

1. Green Bay
2. New Orleans
3. Denver
4. Detroit
5. New England
6. Philadelphia
7. Indianapolis
8. Dallas
9. San Diego
10. Chicago
11. San Francisco
12. New York Giants
13. Cincinnati
14. Atlanta
15. Seattle
16. Baltimore
17. St Louis
18. New York Jets
19. Miami
20. Washington
21. Tampa Bay
22. Arizona
23. Kansas City
24. Carolina
25. Pittsburgh
26. Buffalo
27. Houston
28. Minnesota
29. Cleveland
30. Jacksonville
31. Oakland
32. Tennessee
I think the steelers are going to be much higher than that. Few reasons:

Brown, to my major surprise, showed that he is a legitimate #1 WR and had such a tremendous year last season. He is a beast.

Aside from that the steelers added Lance Moore, have Markus Wheaton who is unknown but someone they are expecting big things from this season. Id prefer Cotchery over moore and Wheaton over sanders so that might be a wash as far as losses go. While I am not thrilled with the addition of Martavius Bryant or Dri Archer I do think Heath Miller will be back to his self after a slow year coming off of injury....he had an amazing 2012 campaign in haleys offense. The single biggest thing about this seasons steeler offense is the run game. Bell showed hes a work horse last season, great zone runner, catches everything, and is very patient with the ball. But now they added Blount which gives them a legit backup and player to spell Bell. After years of having absolutely no running threat (after mendenhalls injuries) with Redman and Dywer and teams could comfortably stop the run in a base defense, they will now get bens single best attribute back into the offense....the play action pass

Its been something removed from the offense for about 3 years now, but looks like it could become a big time threat again.
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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I think the Falcons will move way up again.
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