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Old 08-22-2006, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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This is exactly what I am trying to avoid. The whole insult based posts with the "you gotta be kidding me's". The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all. In no way am I saying Ben is worse than Eli because I said last spring and I still say it now, Ben is off to a much better start and he has been the best QB up to this point. I have a feeling about Eli this season just like I had a feeling about the Giants last year at this time. Please try to avoid the insult based posts because the entire thread will go down a path that nobody wants to read.
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These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperMcgee
Losman beating Rivers?

I figured I'd throw JP a homer sympathy vote, but apparently the guy that needs it is the guy I'd actually take - Philip Rivers

I thought coming out of the draft, that Rivers would be the best QB, Roethlisberger second. JP still has a chance, I think he'll have a much better year this upcoming one, building off some of his strong performances last year. Overall it is too early to have this discussion. After all, at this time in 1985, Marino was better than Elway. They all have a lot to prove:

Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.

Eli needs to show sound fundamentals, to improve his accuracy.

Rivers needs to play.

Losman needs a lot more time to see if he'll "get it."
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
Quote:
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB. [/quote]
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
Quote:
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
First I never said Eli was clutch. And no I didn't go to the website because I pretty much frown upon football outsider and the KC Joyners of the world. Still I can't reacall Ben have any real dramatic comebacks. Which leads me to believe without looking it up because I don't have time, that they weren't great feats. Comeback victories could be down by 3 and scoring a TD in the first two minutes of the 4th quarter. Then having your defense hold onto to that. Comeback? Yes. Dramatic? No. Eli will have the appearance of a more clutch QB because I think there were three occassions where he leds his team back with a TD in the final 2 minutes of a game. Whether he is or isn't, I don't know. Still need more time.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Jughead10:
Wow, read the damn article before calling it stupid. :roll: The data is from 1996, so obviously Elway wouldn't have had many chances.

You make me laugh. Anything to avoid the horrible conclusion that Ben Roethlisberger is actually clutch and has proven it in more than one game.
Quote:
The majority of the NFL world would take Eli over Ben in the last 2 minutes of a game, that's all.
There's no actual evidence to support this ridiculous claim. It's funny that Giants fans are fawning over how "clutch" Eli is just because of the Denver game.
[qoute]Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.[/quote]

Example A of why we should not have this discussion right now.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
For an entire season, not a few games.
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Eli's opportunity to become a legend.
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These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.
Which is why I said I can't recall any dramatic comebacks. I guess that is one then. You are right, I also don't like stat geeks. I don't think football is a sport that can be quantified like baseball. Which is what the Football Outsiders and KC Joyner attempt to do. Too many factors go into football compared to baseball. And I never said Eli was more clutch than Ben. I said it appears that way because Eli had more dramatic come from behind victories. I'm not a big Ben fan because of other reasons, but I really think you can't compare the two until this year when the Steelers apparently will hand Ben more control and open the passing game like the Giants did with Eli.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
For an entire season, not a few games.
Bingo. Like I said, this thread is useless, because all of them still have a lot to prove.
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Old 08-22-2006, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Originally Posted by Number 10
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
For an entire season, not a few games.
Bingo. Like I said, this thread is useless, because all of them still have a lot to prove.
I'm glad someone can pick up on that concept.
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Eli's opportunity to become a legend.
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These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
First of all Brady doesn't air it out often. 2nd of all, the other two QB's have 0 Super Bowl appearances between them. The object of football is to win the Super Bowl, not to see which QB puts up the most yards to please their fangirls.
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:08 PM    (permalink
 
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I'm still taking Eli, then Rivers, then Big Ben.
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jughead10
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Jughead10: So basically you're full of crap and use nonsensical arguments like "I hate stat geeks".

Let's just use the example of the Chargers game. 4th quarter, 11 minutes left, the Steelers give up a touchdown and go down by two points.

1-10-PIT38 (11:33) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward to SD 29 for 33 yards (Q.Jammer).
1-10-SD29 (11:07) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Ward pushed ob at SD 16 for 13 yards (S.Davis).
1-10-SD16 (10:34) B.Roethlisberger pass to H.Miller for 16 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

Perfect. Clutch! But wait, the Chargers score another touchdown! The Steelers are down with 3 minutes to go.

Roethlisberger then has another perfect drive and puts them in FG range before getting his knee messed up. Reed makes the kick, Steelers win.

This is one of many examples.
Which is why I said I can't recall any dramatic comebacks. I guess that is one then. You are right, I also don't like stat geeks. I don't think football is a sport that can be quantified like baseball. Which is what the Football Outsiders and KC Joyner attempt to do. Too many factors go into football compared to baseball. And I never said Eli was more clutch than Ben. I said it appears that way because Eli had more dramatic come from behind victories. I'm not a big Ben fan because of other reasons, but I really think you can't compare the two until this year when the Steelers apparently will hand Ben more control and open the passing game like the Giants did with Eli.
And what reason are you not a Big Ben fan other than he's had more success than your guy?

Name all the come behind victories Eli has had. Ben also led comebacks against the Cowboys and Dolphins his rookie year. Last time I checked Ben was 5-1 in playoff games while Eli was 0-1 and hasn't led his team to even a FG in the playoffs (shut out).
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eacantdraft
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Ben needs to show he can lead a offense and be a productive NFL QB, not just a caretaker QB.
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.

This year, supposedly, the Steelers are going to open up the passing game. After this year, we shall see if Ben can lead a offense like great Quarterbacks do, like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer.
First of all Brady doesn't air it out often. 2nd of all, the other two QB's have 0 Super Bowl appearances between them. The object of football is to win the Super Bowl, not to see which QB puts up the most yards to please their fangirls.

Brady doesn't air it out. He lead the NFL in passing yards last year, and averages a shade under 3,800 yards in his last four seasons. His favorite Receiver is the open one. He is the best "assist" man in the NFL, he hasn't had an elite Receiver. But because he is the ultimate distrubutor, he doesn't need one.

By the way, the "Super Bowl" arguement is the most overrated in all of football. This is a TEAM SPORT. Let this sink in; TEAM SPORT. It is statistical fact, to win the Super Bowl you need an elite defense. A great Quarterback can only take a team so far. He needs to have the pieces around him to push him over the top. Especially when Roethlisberger stunk up the joint, in aformentioned "leading his team to a Super Bowl championship," give me a break.

If Peyton Manning had the Steelers defense, ever, he would've won several Super Bowls by now. It's not his fault, his defense has been weak his whole career. You are drinking the Homerade if you think Ben is any where close to Manning, Brady or Palmer, just because he's a "Super Bowl winner."
:roll:
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:19 PM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
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Old 08-22-2006, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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On draft day I thought Big Ben was the most ready to handle a starting job, Im not saying he'll have teh best career but he was the best at the time. Eli has way more potential though.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury.
Does Palmer play defense?
Quote:
Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play.
That invalidates Roethlisberger's performance that day?
Quote:
Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.
Never said he played well in the Superbowl.
Quote:
The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
It's obvious you didn't watch the playoff games, just the highlights on ESPN. Congrats.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Coming out of college I ranked them....

1. Rivers
2. Big Ben
3. Eli

I think Rivers will end up being the best of the big 3. I always felt Eli, was terribly overrated, he will be great one day, though.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.
Coming out of college I ranked them....

1. Rivers
2. Big Ben
3. Eli

I think Rivers will end up being the best of the big 3. I always felt Eli, was terribly overrated, he will be great one day, though.

Same for me. Although, I think Eli needs to show next year, the development all the fluff pieces on ESPN say he is going to make. Against that schedule, it will be interesting to say the least.
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Old 08-22-2006, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Coming out of college, I liked them like this:

Rivers
Manning
Roethlisberger

I liked all three of them coming out, but I thought Roethlisberger got overrated as a prospect. I liked him but it's real hard for me to believe that anyone who watched all three of them play, thought he was the #1 QB that year.

Right now though, I'd take Manning. Just because Rivers is too much of a crap shoot. He's been in the league for two years and has thrown very little passes. Manning has proven he can QB on an NFL level. He still needs some work, mainly with accuracy, but I think I'd take him over the other two.
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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At this point you almost have to say Ben. He started very early due to injury and he has had a great career since. He has shown he can throw great passes and make huge plays out of nothing. He has been very good throwing on the run. People wirte off his successes every year saying his rookie yea was a fluke and he'd hit a sophmore slump and now they just blame it on our style of play and the good supporting cast he has. Ben won us football games and without him we wouldn't have made the playoffs this year let alone win a Superbowl.

I think Eli will be good, even great, as he has looked better each year and this will only be his third season. He looked very good early in the year last season and only lost his accuracy towards the end of the year when he was worn out. Being worn out is completely understandable for him considering it was his first season starting.

He could turn into a top tier QB and lead the Giants for years to come but he isn't as sure of as Ben is. Eli could remain an average QB for the rest of his career while we have already seen that Ben has what it takes to play at the level of the top QBs in the NFL.

I don't think we have seen enough of Rivers to pick him and I think we have all seen enough of Losman to not pick him.
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KAWICGB
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Originally Posted by Immaculate Tackle
Gee, you'd think no one saw his 3 excellent performances in the playoffs last year. His RBs had something like a 3.0 YPC. More nonsense from Ben bashers.
You mean like when the Steelers got lucky and Palmer went out early with an injury. Or like when they got lucky and Roethlisberger just barely made the tackle against the Colts after that ugly play. Or how about all of those questionable calls in the Super Bowl.

The Steelers were lucky to even make it to the Super Bowl, let alone when it. And when they made it there, they made it there on the Defense and the run game.... last time I checked Big Ben has very little influence on those aspects of the game
Then you didn't watch those games. The first three games leading up to the Superbowl were all won through the air, esspecially in Indy and Denver. The passing game is what got us to the playoffs. The superbowl was won with passing aswell, even if stats don't reflect it.

And how can you honestly say the Steelers were lucky yo beat the Colts? You bring up the 'bad calls' in the Super bowl but you forget the one that the league actually said was a bad call in the Polamalu INT. If it isn't for that call the Steelers wi the game easy.

But regardless of if the team won the Superbowl, Ben has been the best of the 4 QBs over the last two years. Say what you want about our run game and line, he took a 6-10 team to 15-1 with almost the exact same team. Ben is a great QB to the people that watch him play everyweek. Its only the idiots that base their opinions off of highlight reels and stat books that think he isn't.
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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The thing I don't get is why do people refuse to believe in what Ben does. His rookie year he was written off as a 'fluke' and said to have a 'Sophmore slump'. Since that didn't happen people say his sucess is only because of his strong supporting cast.

Ben throws the ball the best out of any of these QBs. He is by far the most accurate from what we have seen. He makes big plays out of situations where he looks like he is going to get sacked. So what if he throws the ball 5-10 less times a game than some QBs? He looks great almost everytime he gets a chance to throw the ball.

Just out of curiosity, why do people hate Ben as a player?
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Old 08-22-2006, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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i like Ben in college above any of the others. he is bigger, stronger, has a stronger arm, smarter, can throw on the run better, and more accurate than all of the others execpt maybe and i mean maybe Rivers. i was hoping the steelers didnt want Rivers like was 1st said and the chargers like Ben like was 1st said. i am very happy with who we got.

you can say that us winning is not all Ben and you are right this is a team game. no one has won in football all by their selfs, but a player can have a bigger % than others and Ben is a Large, Large part of why we won, because we have basically the same team except QB and we could not win and then Ben comes and we go 15-1(and he did not loss the 1) break all kinds of records and come within 1 game of back to back super bowls. the reason we didnt was Ben was hurt and tired and i know we could have beat both teams because we did back to back also stopping NE's win streak.

so bottom line is i much rather have Ben!

I believe that Eli would have had the same production if he was in pittsburgh, I think a lot of people could have won a superbowl passing the ball about 15 times a game w/ a great running game and defense. in his rookie season Vinny Testaverde fumbled the ball or somthing which led to the steelers getting a FG I believe then having Vinny throw a hail mary.
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