Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-21-2007, 06:14 PM    (permalink
nfrillman
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 958
Reputation: 3073
nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl9erfan View Post
Ever wonder what my name means? I grew up in St. Louis, I live in St. Louis, I couldn't avoid watching the Rams if I tried. I've seen just about every game the Rams have played in the past 8 years, and it's becoming more and more obvious that Bruce is over the hill. For crying out loud, Kevin Curtis was a better option last year.

And don't tell me what my opinion is-- you have no idea. Bro, I hated Lloyd since 2004, and I've always called Arnaz Battle what he is: a serviceable, not great, 3rd receiver and special teamer.

What Jackson is (and has been in my opinion when he was with the Seahawks too) is a 1.5 receiver. By which I mean he's not really an ideal primary option, but he's better than your average secondary option too. Bruce might be somewhere near that level right now too-- the difference is he's on the downside of his career.

I'm no homer, man, I call it like I see it. I'll tell you straight up that the 49ers pretty obviously have the worst receiving corps in the division, but in a one on one comparison between which player is more valuable, Bruce or Jackson, the answer is obviously Jackson. From youth to stats to performances in big games against good defenses recently (see SB XL v. the Steelers) Jackson is a very good player still in his prime. Bruce is a former great player now past his.

Whether Jackson is overrated by many I don't know... I don't personally think he's awesome or even an ideal top option at receiver, just an improvement over what the team had at the position previously. Overrated and underrated doesn't really matter-- that's all perception. If most guys think Jackson is a number one receiver and he's really just a very good second option, that doesn't make him any worse as that really good second option (hope that makes sense).

Anyway, I think I'm done on this debate. I've pretty much said all that needs saying, but if you'd like to put in one last plug for Bruce and get the last word, be my guest. I think anyone who doesn't look at this with blue and gold colored glasses would probably agree with me that, over the long run at least (ie not just next season) Jackson will probably be a more valuable commodity than Bruce from here on out.

ETA: those stats you're quoting are all well and good too, man, but you're forgetting that Jackson played in 3 fewer games than Bruce last year, and that Seahawks O was suffering from a lot of injuries last year, including Matt Hasselbeck missing 4 games.
Well now you have gone off and changed the issue we are talking about. I am simply saying that right now Bruce is better. I never said anything about the long run. Someone would have to be insane to think that over the long run Jackson won't be more productive, he is 6 years younger, but as of right now Bruce is still a better WR. I also was not aware there was a stat category called "performances in big games against good defenses recently". That is one of the most ridiculous points I have heard, especially since in the game you mentioned Jackson had 5 catches for 50 yards. Whew, with a performance like that I'm guessing the Steelers DB's are still getting treated for that severe burning Jackson gave them.

As for the fact that Jackson has missed 13 games in the past 2 years. That would raise a red flag for most people about whether they would want that guy or a guy who missed 5 games, but obviously that thought doesn't enter your mind.

Those stats were from the past three seasons by the way. There is no room for boo-hooing about Hasselbeck actually missing 6 games last year and 8 games over that 3 year period, because Bulger missed 10 games over that same time span.

With a statement like Curtis being a better option last year than Bruce, you are clearly grasping for straws. Bruce- 74 catches, 1098 yards. Curtis- 40 catches, 479 yards. I just wish that someone would have passed your knowledge on to the Rams coaching staff because they obviously don't know their own personel, That way they could have put Curtis as the number 2 WR. We might have made the playoffs then. *Note the sarcasm*

I have never said that Jackson is not a fine WR. All I am saying, and if you look up some stats you will see this, is that Bruce is still right around a top 20 WR in the NFL.
__________________

I am done arguing, until somebody says something stupid.
nfrillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2007, 09:48 PM    (permalink
stl9erfan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 639
Reputation: 2194
stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.stl9erfan could make a wolverine purr.
Default

alright you drew me back in:

SB stats: irrelevant... did you watch that game and see some of the ridiculous calls that went against the seahawks? I was pulling for the Steelers in that one and even I thought Seattle got jobbed. And putting up a valiant effort on the game's biggest stage irrelevant? Seems pretty significant to me.

My supposed changing of the argument: We've been talking about which player is more valuable all along-- value clearly entails which player is likely to play longer in the league

on your stats: who even cares? stats measure the past, we're talking about the future and one of the players in question is 34 years old. It ain't gonna last.

on injuries: Jackson might miss three games each year until he retires-- that would still make him more valuable than Bruce at this point, who is likely to retire after a year or two.

And even your Rams agree with me-- they went out and signed Drew Bennett to be a starter, relegating Bruce to the 3rd receiver role. If they thought he was still that valuable of a performer, they could have better spent that money to shore up the run defense, or maybe add another cb.

In short (again) I'm not saying Jackson is the god of all receivers. I'm not even saying he's that great. I'm just saying that right now, pretty much every NFL team out there would consider him to be a more valuable player than Isaac Bruce (which obviously takes age into account and has since I first couched my argument in that fashion). That's all I'm saying.

And now, I'm really done with this. Really. Like for real. And to get this thread back on track:

The Seahawks suck donkeys' testes. And personally, I'm not too fond of the Rams, either. :P
__________________
stl9erfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2007, 10:37 PM    (permalink
Smokey Joe
All-Pro
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,055
Reputation: 13937
Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smokey Joe is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachu View Post
U and I are through.
I'm sorry yoda... If it is any consolation, I could put the Rams as a WC!
__________________

^Thanks to Eaglez.Fan for the sweet sig!

Smokey Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2007, 10:55 PM    (permalink
yodabear
Magic Fingers
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee!
Posts: 20,103
Reputation: 977647
yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
I'm sorry yoda... If it is any consolation, I could put the Rams as a WC!
U better, if u still wanna be my friend.
__________________
yodabear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2007, 04:27 PM    (permalink
NGSeiler
Team Leader
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Morgantown, WV
Posts: 2,926
Reputation: 91178
NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.NGSeiler is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl9erfan View Post
SB stats: irrelevant...
That's interesting. What exactly are you complimenting Jackson on it's not the catches he made or the yards he gained in that game? His "never say die" attitude? The cleanliness of his helmet? His sideline motivational techniques? The speed and sense of urgency he displayed when he ran onto the field?

Stats are a record of performance, what players were able to accomplish with the ball in their hands. Are they overrated in many discussions? Sure. But you specifically cited his performance in the Super Bowl as evidence to his talent, so it's clearly relevant to look at how he performed. And based on the numbers, it was a rather pedestrian performance for a #1 receiver in the biggest game of his career.

You bring up his performance in the SB to support your case in one post, and then do a complete 180 and scoff when someone actually talks about the specifics of that performance. Sorry, but you really can't have it both ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl9erfan View Post
My supposed changing of the argument: We've been talking about which player is more valuable all along
Uhh, not quite. Look back at nfrillman's original statement that prompted the Bruce/Jackson debate:

Quote:
The only player in that group that isn't in the prime of their careers (not as good now as they once were) is Bruce, and he'd still be by far the best WR on the Niners.
So clearly "all along" we've been talking about whether or not the 34-year-old Bruce is better than any WR on the 49ers as of right now, specifically Darrell Jackson.

Obviously the discussion is about the present, not the long-term future. Why, you ask? Well primarily, logic dictates that it has to be. First, we're talking about Bruce at a specific age, 34-years-old, the age he is right now. Also, we're talking about a specific group of wide receivers, the group San Francisco has right now. Why in the world would someone try to make the claim that Bruce would be the best WR on the Niners 2-3+ years from now when (1) we don't even know if Bruce will be playing then and (2) we have no idea who the Niner WRs will be at that time? Makes no sense.

So no, the discussion "all along" has not been whether or not Bruce is more valuable with specific attention paid to career longevity. It was about whether or not he is better right now than any WR the 49ers have. It's right there in the statement, and as I recall, there was nothing specifically mentioned about value until you tried to shift the discussion towards that topic in this post.

Thus, either you are in fact changing the issue being discussed as nfrillman claimed, or you've been misunderstanding the entire debate from the moment it started.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl9erfan View Post
on your stats: who even cares?
Again, you seemed to care just a post ago when you said, "From youth to stats to performances in big games against good defenses recently (see SB XL v. the Steelers) Jackson is a very good player still in his prime."

And as nfrillman pointed out, over the last three years Bruce's numbers as a #2 have been better in nearly all mentioned categories than those of Jackson's. If you don't care about stats, why did you specifically mention them to support your opinion of Jackson? Do you regularly bring up supporting evidence that you find irrelevant or unimportant to discussions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stl9erfan View Post
And even your Rams agree with me-- they went out and signed Drew Bennett to be a starter, relegating Bruce to the 3rd receiver role.
I find it odd that you brag about how much Rams exposure you get, yet you get something like this so fundamentally wrong.

The Rams did not sign Bennett to be an immediate starter and push Bruce to the #3 role. The Rams signed Bennett to be the #3 receiver, to provide a big target specifically in the red zone, and then to eventually be phased into the starting line-up when Bruce is no longer with the team.

One needs only look so far back as this June 13th article from the Belleville News Democrat to get a description of Bennett as the third receiver. The article opens, "Drew Bennett isn't afraid of collecting dust as the St. Louis Rams' No. 3 wide receiver behind Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce."

There are plenty of other news sources I can provide links to if necessary, but hopefully that's enough to do the job.
__________________
NGSeiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 12:49 AM    (permalink
yodabear
Magic Fingers
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Milwaukee!
Posts: 20,103
Reputation: 977647
yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yodabear is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Whose the only team to win a super bowl in this division this decade, that would be us, thank u all. And **** the Steelers and Patriots.
__________________
yodabear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 12:51 AM    (permalink
KCJ58
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: From So Cal, now in Radford, VA
Posts: 16,511
Reputation: 1081743
KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.KCJ58 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yodachu View Post
Whose the only team to win a super bowl in this division this decade, that would be us, thank u all. And **** the Steelers and Patriots.
Seahawks = CHOKE :D
__________________

KCJ58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 02:27 PM    (permalink
49erfanatic
 
Posts: n/a
Reputation:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NGSeiler View Post
Stats are a record of performance, what players were able to accomplish with the ball in their hands.
Numbers are good, but when coupled with some common sense they are even better. Lets look at both Isaac Bruce and Darrell Jackson from 2003 to 2006.
In 2003 Isaac Bruce played in 15 games, catching 69 passes for 981 yards and 5 TDs. That year Jackson played in 16 games, catching 68 passes for 1137 and 9 touchdowns. Similar numbers, with the edge going to Jackson in both yards and touchdowns. 2004 saw Bruce catching 89 passes for 1292 yards and 6 TDs. Jackson had 87 catches for 1199 yards and 7 touchdowns. Pretty much identical numbers. 2005 is somewhat of a wash as Bruce only played 10 games and Jackson only played in 6. However in 4 less games, Jackson was able to put up numbers nearly indentical to Bruce (38 receptions for 482 yards and 3 TDs for Jackson, compared to 36 receptions 525 yards and 3 TDs for Bruce). Again in 2006 we saw very similar numbers between the two recievers. Bruce played in all 16 games, catching 74 passes for 1098 yards and 3 touchdowns. Jackson, who only played in 13 games caught 63 passes for 956 yards and 10 touchdowns. Gotta give the edge to Jackson here.

Jackson has put up his numbers while being the number one option for the Seahawks. His supporting cast has consisted of a solid Bobby Engram, a drunk Koren Robinson (for two years), the village idiot Jeremy Stevens, and a Dieon Branch who came to the Hawks very late last year. Meanwhile Bruce has played with one of the best three WRs in the game the past four years in Torry Holt who teams consistantly double team, one of the better number 3 WRs in the game in Kevin Curtis, and backs who are threats out of the backfield in Faulk and Stephen Jackson (Shaun Alexander is virtually non-existent in the passing game).

When you take all this together, I think it is easy to see that Jackson is the better reciever than an over the hill Isaac Bruce
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 05:41 PM    (permalink
Brent
TomTom Out
Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 26,020
Reputation: 4829675
Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

My prediction:
San Francisco 49ers 12-4 (Garcia & Owens? Awesome)
Atlanta Falcons 8-8 (Chandler should really retire)
New Orleans Saints 7-9 (I like this Aaron Brooks guy)
St. Louis Rams 8-8 (I don't think Warner is going to get it done this year.)
Carolina Panthers 6-10 (Chris Weinke? Yikes.)
__________________

Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2007, 09:51 PM    (permalink
nfrillman
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 958
Reputation: 3073
nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.nfrillman could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentN View Post
My prediction:
San Francisco 49ers 12-4 (Garcia & Owens? Awesome)
Atlanta Falcons 8-8 (Chandler should really retire)
New Orleans Saints 7-9 (I like this Aaron Brooks guy)
St. Louis Rams 8-8 (I don't think Warner is going to get it done this year.)
Carolina Panthers 6-10 (Chris Weinke? Yikes.)
Haha, nice post. I do think there is something to this Aaron Brooks guy. I really don't see him being the kind of QB to throw a ball backwards.
__________________

I am done arguing, until somebody says something stupid.
nfrillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.