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Old 10-24-2006, 11:43 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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Originally Posted by Staubach12
But seriously, look at the card.

I have like 5 of that card, so for the sake of me being able to sell them, yes he should make the HOF.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
2nd - I believe factors such as smaller strike zones, watered down pitching, better technology including juiced balls and bats and smaller ballparks where just as influencial as steroids for the home run era.
Perhaps, but of those influences, only one is illegal, first in baseball and secondly is a federal offense. Everyone else has those same smaller strikezones, watered down pitching, better technology and juiced balls, but not everyone has Victor Conte, Gary Anderson, and "flax seed oil" and "arthritic balm."

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Originally Posted by Shiver
3rd - Before he allegedly took steroids, he was already arguably the best player in baseball. Personally, if GoS is accurate, can he really be blamed for steroid use when everyone else around him was using? It's hypocritical, he is singled out, when everybody else was on it.
Actually this is not true. I remember in about 1999 I got a Topps Mystery Finest Refractors card of Barry Bonds and I was so stoked. I showed it to my friend's dad and this clearly stuck in my head "That's cool, but he's not a superstar. He's pretty good, but he's not great." So I asked him if he thought he would get in the Hall of Fame and he responded "I don't know, it's kinda iffy. If I were in charge, I wouldn't let him in. He's not elite."

It's not so much that I think this guy's word is absolute truth, but it's indicative of his popularity and ability at that time. He truly wasn't a great of his time until he went on steroids. Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr. and even Juan Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez were above him in terms of production and popularity. (not to mention fellow likely 'roider Mark McGwire)

Take a look at it. Seriously. How many times was Barry Bonds even in the top 2 in HRs before 2001? Once when he led the league with 46 in 1993. The guy was good, but not great. I'm sorry, I know a lot of people here are 14 or 15 years old and can't really remember much of sports before the turn of the century, but Bonds was marginally top 10 of his time before the 'roids.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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I just thought every one should know that Barry Bonds has hit 50 HR once in his career, not that should have an impact on his HOF status.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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Barry Bonds will make the HOF. No doubts bouts it. I'm sure Pedro Gomez will find a way...
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Windy City Big Gamer Uno
Barry Bonds will make the HOF. No doubts bouts it. I'm sure Pedro Gomez will find a way...
I think we have a new nominee for the homer thread...




















Pedro Gomez!
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular
Actually this is not true. I remember in about 1999 I got a Topps Mystery Finest Refractors card of Barry Bonds and I was so stoked. I showed it to my friend's dad and this clearly stuck in my head "That's cool, but he's not a superstar. He's pretty good, but he's not great." So I asked him if he thought he would get in the Hall of Fame and he responded "I don't know, it's kinda iffy. If I were in charge, I wouldn't let him in. He's not elite."

It's not so much that I think this guy's word is absolute truth, but it's indicative of his popularity and ability at that time. He truly wasn't a great of his time until he went on steroids. Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr. and even Juan Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez were above him in terms of production and popularity. (not to mention fellow likely 'roider Mark McGwire)

Take a look at it. Seriously. How many times was Barry Bonds even in the top 2 in HRs before 2001? Once when he led the league with 46 in 1993. The guy was good, but not great. I'm sorry, I know a lot of people here are 14 or 15 years old and can't really remember much of sports before the turn of the century, but Bonds was marginally top 10 of his time before the 'roids.
By '99 as you said, this was pre-steroids:

1898 games
411 Home Runs
445 SB
ROTY
8-time Gold Glove
8-time All Star
3-time NL MVP
.408 OBP
Five times was 1st in OPS

Ken Griffey JR:

1375 games
350 Home Runs
143 SB
9-time Gold Glove
9-time All Star
1-AL MVP
.378 OBP
Never was 1st in OPS


Griffey had more home runs. :|
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:59 AM    (permalink
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There's a reason Bonds was the player of the decade in the 90's. Had he retired in '99 and never juiced, he's be a lock for the HOF. I say he gets in (not neccesarily just for the reasons I listed, but I'm not going to get too in depth on this, I've had this discussion way too many times).
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular
Actually this is not true. I remember in about 1999 I got a Topps Mystery Finest Refractors card of Barry Bonds and I was so stoked. I showed it to my friend's dad and this clearly stuck in my head "That's cool, but he's not a superstar. He's pretty good, but he's not great." So I asked him if he thought he would get in the Hall of Fame and he responded "I don't know, it's kinda iffy. If I were in charge, I wouldn't let him in. He's not elite."

It's not so much that I think this guy's word is absolute truth, but it's indicative of his popularity and ability at that time. He truly wasn't a great of his time until he went on steroids. Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey Jr. and even Juan Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez were above him in terms of production and popularity. (not to mention fellow likely 'roider Mark McGwire)

Take a look at it. Seriously. How many times was Barry Bonds even in the top 2 in HRs before 2001? Once when he led the league with 46 in 1993. The guy was good, but not great. I'm sorry, I know a lot of people here are 14 or 15 years old and can't really remember much of sports before the turn of the century, but Bonds was marginally top 10 of his time before the 'roids.
By '99 as you said, this was pre-steroids:

1898 games
411 Home Runs
445 SB
ROTY
8-time Gold Glove
8-time All Star
3-time NL MVP
.408 OBP
Five times was 1st in OPS

Ken Griffey JR:

1375 games
350 Home Runs
143 SB
9-time Gold Glove
9-time All Star
1-AL MVP
.378 OBP
Never was 1st in OPS


Griffey had more home runs. :|
At that point Bonds had played three more seasons than Griffey did. This is what Griffey would've been on pace for had Bonds not used roids and he didn't get injured in Cincy, after the same amount of years.

1750 games
446 HR
182 SB
11-time Gold Glove
11-time All-Star
2-time AL MVP

Now consider that how many times someone leads the league in OPS is an absolutely worthless stats that you threw in there to convince people who have no idea about the subject, that you're right. Bonds did not win the ROY, so I have no idea where you came up with that one. He didn't even finish in the top 5 in voting. Griffey did however finish 3rd in ROY voting.

From '89-'99, Griffey had a better average than Barry did 8 of the 11 seasons. Griffey also had a better SLG in 8 of the 11 seasons. It's pretty easy to manipulate stats to support your argument, you can do that with almost any baseball player, but with all stats included and factoring in that Barry had three more full years on Griffey, Griffey wins fairly easily.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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I believe what Barry did is WORSE then what Pete Rose did, but I think he will get in.

He was a HOF player before he used HGH(which by the way isn't considered an Anobolic Stereroid by most doctors).
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV
I believe what Barry did is WORSE then what Pete Rose did, but I think he will get in.

He was a HOF player before he used HGH(which by the way isn't considered an Anobolic Stereroid by most doctors).
People use the whole "He had HOF numbers before he started using steroids." I find that to be a bunch of ********. Pete Rose had HOF numbers before he bet on baseball. "Shoeless" Joe Jackson had HOF numbers before the WS scandal. The fact is it doesn't matter what you did before you cheated, if you did in fact cheat. We probably will never know 100% if Barry cheated or not, but will all the evidence that is out there, voters will definately take it into consideration.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by doingthisinsteadofwork
barry bonds is a faget even without using the roids.
hmmmm...shocking new development. guess the syringe wasn't the only thing poking him in the butt.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MaxV
I believe what Barry did is WORSE then what Pete Rose did, but I think he will get in.

He was a HOF player before he used HGH(which by the way isn't considered an Anobolic Stereroid by most doctors).
People use the whole "He had HOF numbers before he started using steroids." I find that to be a bunch of ***********. Pete Rose had HOF numbers before he bet on baseball. "Shoeless" Joe Jackson had HOF numbers before the WS scandal. The fact is it doesn't matter what you did before you cheated, if you did in fact cheat. We probably will never know 100% if Barry cheated or not, but will all the evidence that is out there, voters will definately take it into consideration.
and ya know what.....if Barry gets in, so should Pete Rose....because, while they both helped ruin the integrity of the game, at least Pete's stats were legit.
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Patriots-Lions
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxV
I believe what Barry did is WORSE then what Pete Rose did, but I think he will get in.

He was a HOF player before he used HGH(which by the way isn't considered an Anobolic Stereroid by most doctors).
People use the whole "He had HOF numbers before he started using steroids." I find that to be a bunch of ***********. Pete Rose had HOF numbers before he bet on baseball. "Shoeless" Joe Jackson had HOF numbers before the WS scandal. The fact is it doesn't matter what you did before you cheated, if you did in fact cheat. We probably will never know 100% if Barry cheated or not, but will all the evidence that is out there, voters will definately take it into consideration.
But Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose got caught, Barry didn't.

By the way, as much as I love the movie "Field of Dreams", what Jackson did was pretty much worse then both betting on baseball and taking illegal substances.
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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Oh, I agree. I wasn't suggesting that either get in, just pointing something out. And anyone who has read this thread knows I'm just playing devil's advocate.
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