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Old 11-06-2007, 07:33 PM    (permalink
GB12
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Originally Posted by TacticaLion View Post
Wow... the 2005 Bengals went 11-5 with "that defense". I guess "that defense"... the defense built around creating the turnover... must be somewhat effective.

"Without the takeaway they are rather bad." Wow... really? I'm guessing that, if you take passing TDs away from the Patriot's offense, it wouldn't be all that great, would it? If you take away the best part of a unit, it probably wouldn't be all that impressive... but, the point is that the Lions have been forcing many turnovers with a game plan, not luck. Expect the trend to continue.

I still find this thread funny.
The Lions rank
28th in yards
23rd in points
23 in 3rd down %
30th in 1st downs allowed per game

Yeah I'd say that's pretty damn bad. The fact that they get all those turnovers and still rank that low(particularly yards and points) just make it worse. Face it the Lions defense is still not good.
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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Other than my posts, which were clearly meant to be over the top, I still don't see what you're getting at Tactica.

As bad and banged up as the Bears defense has been this year, it's still better than the Lions, as are the Packers and Vikings. The Lions are still the worst defense in the division. Are they better than a lot of people expected? Sure. But that's not saying a whole lot. The Lions are winning because they have a great offense that requires the other teams offense to press and turn the ball over. Considering the level of talent what the Lions have done this year is impressive, but hardly worth talking **** about. (Which would explain why nobody even responded to your first post)
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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Those numbers are probably a bit "inflated" due to the Eagles and Redskin games. Not saying you should take them out of the equation, but just thought I'd say.
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Those numbers are probably a bit "inflated" due to the Eagles and Redskin games. Not saying you should take them out of the equation, but just thought I'd say.
I had a feeling someone would say that. Giving up 56 points should nevere happen especially to a "good defense". Look at the team that did it to you too, the Eagles only average 14 points a game excluding the Detroit game. It's not even like you were playing the Patriots you gave up 56 to a team that is one of the worst scoring offenses in the NFL.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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GB12... you're missing something: 1st in takeaways. I know it helps your case to leave it out, but it's an important stat.
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Other than my posts, which were clearly meant to be over the top, I still don't see what you're getting at Tactica.

As bad and banged up as the Bears defense has been this year, it's still better than the Lions, as are the Packers and Vikings. The Lions are still the worst defense in the division. Are they better than a lot of people expected? Sure. But that's not saying a whole lot. The Lions are winning because they have a great offense that requires the other teams offense to press and turn the ball over. Considering the level of talent what the Lions have done this year is impressive, but hardly worth talking **** about. (Which would explain why nobody even responded to your first post)
The Lions have been winning because they have a "great offense"? Are you kidding?

Riiiiight. In the last 3 games (all wins), Kitna has 2 touchdowns. 2. In 3 games. Kevin Jones? 2 TDs... in 3 games. Roy Williams? 0 TDs. Yep... its been that "great offense" thats won those games.

vs Bucs: Kevin Jones and Calvin Johnson both rush for a TD... Calvin's set-up by a red zone fumble recovery. Jason Hanson kicks 3 FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 14.

vs Bears: 4 Lions' interceptions. Kevin Jones gets 1 TD, but Jason Hanson gets another 3 FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 7.

vs Broncos: Kitna throws for 2 TDs and Duckett rushes for 1. 1 Lions' interception... for a TD. Lions defense adds 5 sacks and 3 FFs/FRs (one for a TD). Hanson kicks 3 more FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 21 - Lions' defense: 14. In other words, the Lions' kicker and defense outscored the Lions' offense.

Totals:
Lions' offense: 42
Rest of team: 41


Man... that's a great offense. Carrying the team, huh? Get that garbage off the board.

The Lions are winning games because they're pressuring the opposing offense into making mistakes... period. It has been the defense, not the offense, that has led us to a 6-2 record.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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GB12... you're missing something: 1st in takeaways. I know it helps your case to leave it out, but it's an important stat.
No I didn't and it actually helps my case. "The fact that they get all those turnovers and still rank that low(particularly yards and points) just make it worse." Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense, especially when they're that bad everywhere else.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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No I didn't and it actually helps my case. "The fact that they get all those turnovers and still rank that low(particularly yards and points) just make it worse." Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense, especially when they're that bad everywhere else.
So are you saying turnovers are luck? Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense?
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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Lets put it this way, is the lions defence better than any other team in the divisions?
I would have to say no.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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NFC west is better. NFC West is the class of football.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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NFC west is better. NFC West is the class of football.
Special Ed class.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Special Ed class.
No, the NFC west is great.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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So are you saying turnovers are luck? Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense?
No and kind of. They are doing a great job getting turnovers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have a good defense. When they are that low in all the other categories turnovers don't do enough to push you out of bad. Plus by getting turnovers it stops the other team from scoring. The Lions have the most turnovers but yet they still give up a lot of points. Turnovers are what's keeping them from being a bottom 5 defense.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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No I didn't and it actually helps my case. "The fact that they get all those turnovers and still rank that low(particularly yards and points) just make it worse." Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense, especially when they're that bad everywhere else.
Getting a lot of takeaways doesn't mean you have a good defense? Are you kidding?

Getting a few takeaways... the lucky fumble or the horrible pass... might mean you don't have a good defense. Forcing a ton of turnovers from pressure on the QB and solid play in the secondary is the sign of a good defense.

Quote:
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The Lions have the most turnovers but yet they still give up a lot of points.
God, this is such a trash argument.

Yeah, the Lions gave up 56 points to the Eagles... we got that one. Over the last 3 games, the Lions' have given up an average of 10 points while scoring an average of 28... and have 9 takeaways in that span (compared to 2 turnovers - 0 INTs).

You can use whatever stats you'd like, but it has been the Lions defense that has won them their games this season.
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Old 11-06-2007, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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GB12... you're missing something: 1st in takeaways. I know it helps your case to leave it out, but it's an important stat. The Lions have been winning because they have a "great offense"? Are you kidding?

Riiiiight. In the last 3 games (all wins), Kitna has 2 touchdowns. 2. In 3 games. Kevin Jones? 2 TDs... in 3 games. Roy Williams? 0 TDs. Yep... its been that "great offense" thats won those games.

vs Bucs: Kevin Jones and Calvin Johnson both rush for a TD... Calvin's set-up by a red zone fumble recovery. Jason Hanson kicks 3 FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 14.

vs Bears: 4 Lions' interceptions. Kevin Jones gets 1 TD, but Jason Hanson gets another 3 FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 7.

vs Broncos: Kitna throws for 2 TDs and Duckett rushes for 1. 1 Lions' interception... for a TD. Lions defense adds 5 sacks and 3 FFs/FRs (one for a TD). Hanson kicks 3 more FGs (9 points). Hanson: 9 - Lions' offense: 21 - Lions' defense: 14. In other words, the Lions' kicker and defense outscored the Lions' offense.

Totals:
Lions' offense: 42
Rest of team: 41


Man... that's a great offense. Carrying the team, huh? Get that garbage off the board.

The Lions are winning games because they're pressuring the opposing offense into making mistakes... period. It has been the defense, not the offense, that has led us to a 6-2 record.
Wow...those are some great stats. Here are some of mine.

Lions offense: 6th overall
Lions defense: 23rd overall

Good stuff though...really...
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Once again is the lions D better than the others in the division. Better yet, is the DET D better than 16 teams in the league
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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Wow...those are some great stats. Here are some of mine.

Lions offense: 6th overall
Lions defense: 23rd overall

Good stuff though...really...
Read the post... regardless of what "ranking" you found to represent the Lions' defense, the defense has played well and the offense has struggled. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neko4
Once again is the lions D better than the others in the division. Better yet, is the DET D better than 16 teams in the league
The Lions' have the most points off turnovers in the NFL. Most points off turnovers. The defense created those turnovers.

So, yes... when I look at that stat, and see that the defense has created multiple opportunities for the offense to be successful, I'd say they're a good defense. You may choose to rate a defense by points or yards allowed... but, when the defense can create (or give) points to a team, it's a big deal. The Lions' D has done just that.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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Cool....well I guess you proved your point and showed us.



Enjoy.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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The Lions defense has played better since the bye week, there is no questioning that. Sure, they played horrible defense the first five weeks. However, Marinelli fixed some things during the bye week and we are playing much better. The defensive ranks are fun to throw out, because it doesn't take into account that we've gotten BETTER. The defense over the last three weeks is not the same defense that played in the first five weeks. I'll admit that I am skeptical that they can keep up their play, but if they do those defensive ranks will improve.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Yannow what? I'm tired of these ******** arguments. Lets try something...

I removed the game with the most points against for each team, then averaged their "points allowed".

Packers:
16.4 (Bears game removed)

Vikings:
17.5 (Bears game removed)

Lions:
18.4 (Eagles game removed)

Bears:
20.5 (Lions game removed)

With the worst performance removed, the Bears allow, on average, the most points against. Notice that the Lions (3rd) are closer to the Packers (1st - 2 points behind) than the Bears (4th) are to the Lions (3rd - 2.1 points behind).

In other words? Some stats are ********. Takeaways and points off takeaways aren't one of those stats. The Lions are 1st (in the NFL) in both.
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Old 11-06-2007, 09:35 PM    (permalink
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Bears have had injury problems, so i think tht can compensate for some of the points given open
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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No he's right, the Lions have the best defense in football. I don't even know why you're arguing.

Clearly his stats are best. It makes total sense to get rid of one of the games that happened, and that in no way has to do with the fact that it helps his already brilliant argument.

And points off turnovers? Man...that's totally a reflection of the defense!!


Thank you so much for getting rid of all of these ****** arguments.
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Old 11-06-2007, 10:42 PM    (permalink
Jagonsucker
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lions have a good d-line and good linebackers but their corners arent that great. Keep in mind we have a very old Kennoy kennedy as our SS and a rookie Gerald Alexander(whos been doing pretty good for a rookie) as our FS..our defense is far from great but that D-line we have is very good. And thats whats making things happen for our team.
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Old 11-07-2007, 02:31 AM    (permalink
Crazy_Chris
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
No he's right, the Lions have the best defense in football. I don't even know why you're arguing.

Clearly his stats are best. It makes total sense to get rid of one of the games that happened, and that in no way has to do with the fact that it helps his already brilliant argument.

And points off turnovers? Man...that's totally a reflection of the defense!!


Thank you so much for getting rid of all of these ****** arguments.
I think we agree with Tatica on one thing and that is...

We too find this thread funny now
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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I think we agree with Tatica on one thing and that is...

We too find this thread funny now
it's hilarious.
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:20 PM    (permalink
TacticaLion
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Bears have had injury problems, so i think tht can compensate for some of the points given open
I'm not saying that, when healthy, the Bears aren't one of the best defenses in the NFL. But, as it stands now, they haven't performed well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Clearly his stats are best. It makes total sense to get rid of one of the games that happened, and that in no way has to do with the fact that it helps his already brilliant argument.

And points off turnovers? Man...that's totally a reflection of the defense!!
Points off turnovers IS a reflection of the defense. Without the ball, the offense wouldnt've been able to put points on the board.

Looking at only a few stats and not others (or actual situations) is ignorant.

Stat: Osi Umenyiora is averaging 1.0 sack a game in 2007... which leaves him on pace to finish with 16 for the year.

Truth: Osi has been sackless for 5 of his 8 games this year, and only had one in each of two other games. In the final game, against a young, struggling LT, he had 6 sacks. Is it reasonable to expect consistent sack numbers (1 per game) from Osi by looking only at his average? Yes. Knowing the situation, is it? No.

If it makes you feel better thinking that the Bears' defense has outplayed the Lions' defense from one skewed stat, so be it. Enjoy it. Let it compensate for the record... I don't care.

But... know that, for 7 of the 8 games this season, the Lions' defense averaged fewer points against than the Bears.
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