Does Al Harris deserve a Pro-Bowl bid

[Moses]

Originally Posted by njx9

i don't think one has any bearing on the other. if there are twenty better corners in the AFC, who cares if he's the second best corner in the nfc? that doesn't really have any specific bearing on the kind of year he's having.

I don't understand that argument at all. Let me put it this way: Name 5 NFC corners who had a better year?

[Packman1957]

Originally Posted by Moses

I don't understand that argument at all. Let me put it this way: Name 5 NFC corners who had a better year?

Exactly he can't name them. The only one's I can possible think of is maybe Terrance Newman or Lito Sheppard but thats it. Hall certainly did not play better than Harris nor did Barber, but we all know that is f'ed up.

[njx9]

newman, shepard are as far as i get before it gets a bit murky. sheldon brown's name comes up, but it sounds like he's had a similar year to harris. ronde barber's name comes up, but he hadn't looked good in the few games i'd seen. charles woodson has been called better in this thread. walt harris has looked all right at times (when i've actually bothered watching the 49ers), although i'm not sure he's at the same level.

i still fail to see how perhaps being the 4th or 5th best cb in the NFC means he had an excellent season. does being tied for 5th best in the NFC mean atlanta's having an excellent season? does being in 4th in the nfc mean philly is having am amazing year? i would tend to think no. just because your peers have been mediocre doesn't mean you've been great.

[Moses]

Alright, name 10 NFL CBs who played better this season. The point is that Al Harris is one of the best cornerbacks in the league and played like it this year.

[njx9]

better: bailey, newman, mcalister, asomugha, mathis, shepard, woodson
debatable: brown, barber, law, manning

off the top of my head and from what i've seen this season. as was pointed out earlier, i didn't get to see every play al harris made. then again, neither did most packers fans. that applies across the board, i haven't seen every single one of these guys play all season or even most of the season.

i'd certainly be open to listening to a debate that involved someone else pulling the numbers from #1 and #2 receivers against all the teams above. since it seems that most packer fans would just like me to take them at their word rather than quoting anything or pulling video, this isn't really an argument worth continuing.

and just because i see it coming, if you want to make an argument for harris that doesn't involve simply blaming the safeties without anything to back up your opinion, i'd love to hear it. i don't hate harris and i'm not dead set against him. but it's difficult to take seriously the argument that he's fantastic and that the safeties are really to blame for the ugly touchdown numbers when it's just a bunch of green bay fans parroting each other. i looked up some stats, someone else can feel free to do similar.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by njx9

better: bailey, newman, mcalister, asomugha, mathis, shepard, woodson
debatable: brown, barber, law, manning

off the top of my head and from what i've seen this season. as was pointed out earlier, i didn't get to see every play al harris made. then again, neither did most packers fans. that applies across the board, i haven't seen every single one of these guys play all season or even most of the season.

i'd certainly be open to listening to a debate that involved someone else pulling the numbers from #1 and #2 receivers against all the teams above. since it seems that most packer fans would just like me to take them at their word rather than quoting anything or pulling video, this isn't really an argument worth continuing.

and just because i see it coming, if you want to make an argument for harris that doesn't involve simply blaming the safeties without anything to back up your opinion, i'd love to hear it. i don't hate harris and i'm not dead set against him. but it's difficult to take seriously the argument that he's fantastic and that the safeties are really to blame for the ugly touchdown numbers when it's just a bunch of green bay fans parroting each other. i looked up some stats, someone else can feel free to do similar.

So let's assume that there are 10 cornerbacks in the league who had a better season than Harris (which is debatable). By my standards, that is an excellent season.

[Boston]

Week 6: Chris Chambers, 2 catches for 29 yards.
Week 7: Anquan Boldin, 4 catches for 47 yards.
Week 8: Lee Evans, 2 catches for 58 yards and one TD
Week 9: Travis Taylor, 3 catches for 28 yards.
Week 10: Troy Brown, 4 catches for 26 yards.
Week 11: Darrell Jackson, 2 catches for 20 yards with one TD
Week 12: Lavernious Coles, 3 catches for 28 yards.
Week 13: Antonio Bryant, 1 catch for 39 yards.
Week 14: Roy Williams, 1 catch for 11 yards.

Each reciever was more than likely covered by Harris one on one for the majority of the game. And it's not like those receivers are back up recievers either.

[Pack_Attack_4]

AL shuts anyones 1st WR down .

[weezer1195]

Nnamdi Asomugha got 7 interceptions for the raiders but all that got him was a pat on the back. The pro-bowl spots almost always go mostly to players on winning teams who are well known. Thats just the way it is. Most players deserve it but others are there because its a popularity contest. Ex. Deangelo Hall

[bearsfan_51]

Originally Posted by Pack_Attack_4

AL shuts anyones 1st WR down .

That was a bad argument on page 1 when it was statistically proved false. Try again.

[Vikes99ej]

Originally Posted by Pack_Attack_4

AL shuts anyones 1st WR down .

Good for him.

[TitleTown088]

Originally Posted by Vikes99ej

Good for him.

yeah, that would be good for him. wouldn't it?

Anyways i think everyone should let it go. he didn't make the damn probowl, who cares.

[The Unseen]

Originally Posted by Pack_Attack_4

AL shuts anyones 1st WR down .

And bunnies rule the world...

[PackerMang]

Al Harris named a Pro-bowl alternate.

So was Barnett and a bigger suprise is that Brett Favre is also an alternate.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by PackerMang

Al Harris named a Pro-bowl alternate.

So was Barnett and a bigger suprise is that Brett Favre is also an alternate.

Not really considering the weak NFC quarterbacks and Brett's popularity.

[yourfavestoner]

Originally Posted by Pack_Attack_4

AL shuts anyones 1st WR down .

You are undoubtedly the biggest homer I have ever seen in my life.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Boston

Week 6: Chris Chambers, 2 catches for 29 yards.
Week 7: Anquan Boldin, 4 catches for 47 yards.
Week 8: Lee Evans, 2 catches for 58 yards and one TD
Week 9: Travis Taylor, 3 catches for 28 yards.
Week 10: Troy Brown, 4 catches for 26 yards.
Week 11: Darrell Jackson, 2 catches for 20 yards with one TD
Week 12: Lavernious Coles, 3 catches for 28 yards.
Week 13: Antonio Bryant, 1 catch for 39 yards.
Week 14: Roy Williams, 1 catch for 11 yards.

Each reciever was more than likely covered by Harris one on one for the majority of the game. And it's not like those receivers are back up recievers either.

:roll:

you missed a few. and it IS like troy brown is a back-up receiver for 31 nfl teams. the case could be made that travis taylor is, at best, a #4 receiver. but yeah, creative stat-keeping is always a good way to make someone look better.

week 1 - muhsin muhammad - 6/102
week 2 - joe horn - 5/88
week 3 - roy williams - 7/138/1
week 4 - reggie brown - 3/63
week 5 - torry holt - 3/40/1

[johbur]

from the jsonline:
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=543632

Harris has been pushing his teammate, cornerback Charles Woodson for the Pro Bowl, and with six interceptions it was thought he might have a chance. But Harris was also hoping it was his turn after allowing just 1½ touchdowns despite continually matching up with the opposition's top receiver.

He allowed 2 TDs all of last year, and 1.5 this year through 14 games. That's 30 games and 3.5 TDs given up. That's 1 TD every 8.5 games played. So, even though the Packers have given up 24 passing TDs (per nfl.com), Harris has been responsible for 1.5 TDs given up for the whole year.

In this discussion, anti-Harris players have forgotten about spread formations of 3 or 4 or 5 WRs in which UDFA Patrick Dendy was on the field as the third CB, or that Ahmad Carroll was getting burned so badly through the first four games that he was cut and the Packers took a $1.7 million hit to get rid of him, or that LB Poppinga was exposed early and often in pass coverage. Toss in a 6th round rookie, SS Culver, as the nickel back and another UDFA FS Bush and the holes in the Packers pass coverage are easy to find. Just understand it is not the starting CBs that are the problem.

Oh, and that's from a news source and the NFL website, not from a fan "parroting another fan".

[Boston]

Originally Posted by njx9

:roll:

you missed a few. and it IS like troy brown is a back-up receiver for 31 nfl teams. the case could be made that travis taylor is, at best, a #4 receiver. but yeah, creative stat-keeping is always a good way to make someone look better.

week 1 - muhsin muhammad - 6/102
week 2 - joe horn - 5/88
week 3 - roy williams - 7/138/1
week 4 - reggie brown - 3/63
week 5 - torry holt - 3/40/1

What about the other recievers? No comment? Yes, he had two bad games all year, according to stats, unless you want to find stats that prove otherwise. Because his peers are mediocre means he's in any way associated?

Yes, the pass defense sucked this year, so to the average eye that would mean that Harris hasn't been very good either. If you look at the stats over each game, i'd bet you that the tight end, or number 3 reciever, was the most productive reciever in each one of those games. You haven't really presented any arguement as to why he shouldn't be considered very good, other than packer fans are homers, and he's gotten beat all the time this year.

I really don't see why it is so hard to see that Harris had a very good season.

[jkpigskin]

Originally Posted by Moses

Alright, name 10 NFL CBs who played better this season. The point is that Al Harris is one of the best cornerbacks in the league and played like it this year.

not in order, just numbering to keep track

1. Champ Baily
2. Rashean Mathis
3. Chris McAlister
4. Asante Samuel
5. N. Asomuga(i cant spell )
6. Terrance Newman
7. Anthony Henry
8. Lito Sheppard
9. Ronde Barber
10. his teammate Charles Woodson

[Moses]

Originally Posted by jkpigskin

not in order, just numbering to keep track

1. Champ Baily
2. Rashean Mathis
3. Chris McAlister
4. Asante Samuel
5. N. Asomuga(i cant spell )
6. Terrance Newman
7. Anthony Henry
8. Lito Sheppard
9. Ronde Barber
10. his teammate Charles Woodson

A lot of those are debatable. I definitely disagree with Barber, Woodson, and Henry. Even if all 10 of those cornerbacks are better (which they aren't), Harris is still elite.

[jkpigskin]

Originally Posted by Moses

A lot of those are debatable. I definitely disagree with Barber, Woodson, and Henry. Even if all 10 of those cornerbacks are better (which they aren't), Harris is still elite.

i wouldnt say elite, but very solid....... elite status is where only a few go....... there could be only 1 elite corner in the league while there are a bunch of solid ones............ i agree that many are debatable

[Moses]

Originally Posted by jkpigskin

i wouldnt say elite, but very solid....... elite status is where only a few go....... there could be only 1 elite corner in the league while there are a bunch of solid ones............ i agree that many are debatable

Other than Bailey, Harris is in the same category as all of those cornerbacks anyway. We could argue all day about who is better but they are all at a very similar talent level. Bailey is the best, the others are elite.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Boston

What about the other recievers? No comment? Yes, he had two bad games all year, according to stats, unless you want to find stats that prove otherwise.

why would i comment? i was the one who brought in those stats first. i already commented on them several times. i HIGHLY doubt he's been matched up with the opposing team's #1 receiver, especially since he's apparently (according to at least 3/4 of the packers fans) only responsible for getting beat like, once, and that really, he never apparently has deep responsibility.

Because his peers are mediocre means he's in any way associated?

what? either you completely misapplied an argument i made, or you're extremely confused about something.

Yes, the pass defense sucked this year, so to the average eye that would mean that Harris hasn't been very good either. If you look at the stats over each game, i'd bet you that the tight end, or number 3 reciever, was the most productive reciever in each one of those games.

that's demonstratably not true. the ONLY game i remember the TE being the leading receiver for was the new england game, but then, ben watson was clearly their best receiver. it's too bad al harris (from the last time i brought up the stats) wasn't capable of covering him and was wasted on either troy brown or reche caldwell. *shrug*

You haven't really presented any arguement as to why he shouldn't be considered very good, other than packer fans are homers, and he's gotten beat all the time this year.

neither of which have been my argument. he's been beat a few times this year. to blame every single one on the safeties, as people tried to do earlier, is just ridiculous. i pointed that out. i've asked for printed articles or video on youtube of him covering ANYONE at least 20 times now and none of you have responded. which is funny after i was accused of skipping over providing certain information.

I really don't see why it is so hard to see that Harris had a very good season.

because no one but packer fans has said it. if every broncos fan said gerard warren was the best DT in the history of the game, do you think that would be very credible? then why in god's name should i take 6 packer fans at their word, when they consistently refuse to quote ANYONE who agrees with them in the press?