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Old 02-05-2008, 12:51 PM    (permalink
someone447
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Default The feasibility of the Run and Shoot offense in the Modern NFL

I wrote this in the Brady thread because we were talking about variants of the Run and Shoot.

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Oh definitely, I think the lack of a TE hurt us significantly in the red zone. That is the biggest problem with the Run and Shoot. It is very tough to score in the red zone with. I truly believe we will see a resurgence of the Run and Shoot type offenses now that it has been proven effective with the right personnel. The old Wishbone option doesn't work anymore, but Urban Meyers Spread Option still does, and while not overly similar, they still belong to the same family of offenses. Just like the Patriots belong to the Run and Shoot family.

Personally, this is what I would do to make the Run and Shoot work. Now, don't get me wrong, this isn't going to be the Mouse Davis/Jerry Glanville type of Run and Shoot, but it will be quite similar in most aspects.

QB- A QB that is good outside the pocket, and smart enough to be able to audible often. Favre would fit great, as would someone like Steve McNair(earlier in his career) Manning and Brady could run it quite well, but I feel like it would be wasting their talents.
RB- A Mike Alstott or Brian Leonard would be very nice, as would any back who is an excellent pass blocker and serviceable runner. You could also go the exact opposite direction and take a real shifty runner like MJD or Clinton Portis. Ryan Grant also fits well into this offense.
OL- The Packers oline is ideal. A ZBS for the running game with an oline that can still pass block is amazing, and quite rare, but the Packers have managed to do it.
Wideouts- Obviously Moss or TO would be ideal for the outside receivers, but we have to be realistic. A speedy receiver to stretch the field on one side, think Donte Stallworth then a possession guy on the other think Colsten, Driver, etc.
Slots- Wes Welker would be the number one choice. You want guys who aren't afraid to go over the middle, but you also need them to be able to avoid contact. Welker excels at that. Greg Jennings would be another great one.

Up until now, this is the typical Run and Shoot, here is where mine differs.
FB- Only used in short yardage situations, and can be substituted for the RB when the QB needs extra protection. Think William Henderson.
TE- Again used primarily in the Red zone, and primarily as a blocker. Bubba Franks would be perfect, a great blocker, and a solid red zone threat.

From the 20 to the 20 it would be a typical run and shoot offense. In the red zone it would come to look like a much more traditional offense. As of right now, only two teams have the personnel to run this, the Packers and the Patriots. The lack of a run game can be neutralized by attempting high percentage crossing routes, something the Packers and Patriots already excel at. Is it more risky then the typical ball control and great defense that wins championships? Of course, but it will create a lot of excitement, and with the right personnel the risks would be minimized.
Obviously I believe a Run and Shoot type offense(even more so than the Pats this year) can be successful in the NFL. I would like to see what everyone else thinks.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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I have to agree with you. Obviously with the right personel in there you could run it. The Patriots have almost exactly what your looking for on offense for a run and shoot. A great QB, who can buy time, has a good arm, and a smart QB. WR's in Moss fast who can stretch the field, but also tall and can make great catches. Donte Stallworth to stretch the field with his speed, and Wes Welker in my mind, is right now the cream of the crop for slot backs. OL for NE is a solid one as well. TE could be better, but it is still what Brady looked for many times in the red zone. They can turn small plays into bigger ones, but can also sit and wait for the ball to get a sure first down. RB's in Kevin Faulk are key. When running the spread your obviously having guys go deep and all over the field. This opens up underneath and usually the flats. You need a RB who can catch and make plays in the open, a la Kevin Faulk. One of the greatest in my mind for this.

I think it is very possible that it comes back. Like I said as well as you, not everyone can run this, they need the right personel.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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At the same (thinking defense here) a team who runs the run and shoot, could be in tough come the red zone. If they get to say the 20, they dont have a lot of room to stretch the field anymore. A smart team to play this offense, would play a bend but dont break style. Take away the deep stuff, and let them have the dink and dunk stuff. Let them drive down the field and put up great numbers. If you can hold them without any points given up, then its a plus.

Odds are that once they are inthe red zone they will need to chane the offense. Put the QB under centre and maybe have 2 RB or 2 TE sets. Which completely changes things up for the offense.

I dont want to gloat or anything, but do you guys remember when I wrote a thread regarding the "Flex Defense"? I think that defense could be what stops a run and shoot offense. If it mean playing a cover 3 man, taking away all deep possibilities, or playing a somewhat of a modified prevent (I can clarify this later) you will obviously leave the underneath stuff open for business. If they take it, they take it. Come the red zone, you can go back to a 4-3 or 3-4 or whatever front you run, and change it up according to the offense. If you are able to hold them to a FG that is OK. The other key part (as we've seen this year) is the pass rush. You need that to stop this offense.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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RB's in Kevin Faulk are key. When running the spread your obviously having guys go deep and all over the field. This opens up underneath and usually the flats. You need a RB who can catch and make plays in the open, a la Kevin Faulk. One of the greatest in my mind for this.
This is where I disagree with you. I think it is more important for the RB to be able to pass block. Obviously, that is a personal preference, because both could probably work. In my version(and the original) the slot receivers take the place of what your RB does. They run the underneath routes, they run bubble routes in the flats. The RB helps the QB buy some more time.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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At the same (thinking defense here) a team who runs the run and shoot, could be in tough come the red zone. If they get to say the 20, they dont have a lot of room to stretch the field anymore. A smart team to play this offense, would play a bend but dont break style. Take away the deep stuff, and let them have the dink and dunk stuff. Let them drive down the field and put up great numbers. If you can hold them without any points given up, then its a plus.
Yes, the red zone is a very tough place for a true run and shoot. That is why I think they have to carry at least one TE and at least one FB. The old school run and shoot teams didn't carry either. A blocking TE who is also a red zone threat is perfect(Bubba Franks, it is probably the only time he would be described as the perfect TE in the NFL.)
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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This is where I disagree with you. I think it is more important for the RB to be able to pass block. Obviously, that is a personal preference, because both could probably work. In my version(and the original) the slot receivers take the place of what your RB does. They run the underneath routes, they run bubble routes in the flats. The RB helps the QB buy some more time.
Well, what I was thinking is something along the lines of this. Take NE for example. You would have Stallowrth trying to stretch the field, Moss could be going aross the deep middle or deep as well. Now, Say Wes lines up on the right side of the offense, he runs an in-route across the field, a LB will obvioulsy flow with him for a short period time (obviously depending if its man or zone). At this point I would send my RB out to the right side of the field for a quick screen like play, or have him run an out pattern out of the backfield, hit him really quick, and he turns it up for about a 10 yard gain. To me this si very similar in isolating Wes Welker across the middle of the field.
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Well, what I was thinking is something along the lines of this. Take NE for example. You would have Stallowrth trying to stretch the field, Moss could be going aross the deep middle or deep as well. Now, Say Wes lines up on the right side of the offense, he runs an in-route across the field, a LB will obvioulsy flow with him for a short period time (obviously depending if its man or zone). At this point I would send my RB out to the right side of the field for a quick screen like play, or have him run an out pattern out of the backfield, hit him really quick, and he turns it up for about a 10 yard gain. To me this si very similar in isolating Wes Welker across the middle of the field.
It is very similar, but as shown by the Giants, pinning your ears back and just going after the QB is very effective against a primarily passing team. Having a big back who is good at pass blocking stay in well help to neutralize a good pass rush.

The Run and Shoot uses lots of crossing routes, deep outs, corners, and skinny posts. Probably the prototypical R&S play is like this.

Trips right.

Backside receiver has 3-4 choices depending on the alignment of the CB. If the CB is playing him off he can do a quick out, quick hitch, or a drag(depending on the play called.)

If the CB is playing an outside shade at normal depth he can do a skinny post. If the CB is pressed he does a fade.

The two slots will run a option routes depending on the coverage. If it is man coverage the #3 receiver will run a quick out, with the #2 receiver running a seam with an outside release. The #2 receiver will start the route off slow, hoping the defenders rub off on each other.

If it is zone coverage, the #3 receiver will do a drag, with the #2 hi-lowing the outside back on a deep dig.

The outside receiver to the trips side will do a hitch, deep post or a fade.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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Ok, not entirely different from what I said previously, but genreally the same idea.

I think that it can be had though. My version of the Flex, would call off and let them get a free release. Sometimes it would call for a press, but not often. To combat this, I would probably come out with 2 DL, preferabbly inside lineman, 5 LB's, who would cover medium to short zones, and also blitz, followed by 4 Db's. Obviously several combinations can be made with that, but by taking away the deep ball it alsmot forces them to throw short. I would let them take the short passes, adn trust in pressure and deep coverge/red zone defense to stop them.
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Old 02-05-2008, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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Ok, not entirely different from what I said previously, but genreally the same idea.

I think that it can be had though. My version of the Flex, would call off and let them get a free release. Sometimes it would call for a press, but not often. To combat this, I would probably come out with 2 DL, preferabbly inside lineman, 5 LB's, who would cover medium to short zones, and also blitz, followed by 4 Db's. Obviously several combinations can be made with that, but by taking away the deep ball it alsmot forces them to throw short. I would let them take the short passes, adn trust in pressure and deep coverge/red zone defense to stop them.
I tell my QB to audible to a run every time a defense comes out in that. The Run and Shoot involves running the ball when there is less than 6 guys in the box.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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I tell my QB to audible to a run every time a defense comes out in that. The Run and Shoot involves running the ball when there is less than 6 guys in the box.
I understand, but like I said, there are more looks than the one I gave you that this defense could come out in. I could line 8 guys up in the box or on the line.
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Old 02-05-2008, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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If it's the offense that was run in the early nineties with the Houston Oilers that basically had no tight ends or fullbacks, I'd be very surprised if it was successful.
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Old 02-05-2008, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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I like a lot of the things you said, but the post was kinda confusing to follow because you keep saying this is your model for the run N shoot except 99% of your "ideal" players are Packers. If you diversified the player models it would make it sound a lot more interesting.

You could've just come out and flat out said: offenses should run the Packers' offense with the same type of players.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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I like a lot of the things you said, but the post was kinda confusing to follow because you keep saying this is your model for the run N shoot except 99% of your "ideal" players are Packers. If you diversified the player models it would make it sound a lot more interesting.

You could've just come out and flat out said: offenses should run the Packers' offense with the same type of players.
Ya, I haven't had too much time to watch much football this year, I thought I did say that the Packers and Patriots would be ideal teams to run it. Maybe that was in the other thread though.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:25 AM    (permalink
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It is an interesting one thats for sure.

I personally think that there is very little attention given to the style of offense that the Pats ran this year, it was basically a spread offense but that is kind of frowned upon as a description, but thats what they did.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Vikings run something like this. Jackson has some wheels, Rice plays a lot like Moss, Williamson can burn and Wade is a decent slot guy. I think the key though would be that Peterson has to work on his pass blocking and receiving, if he can get good at those, it would be an ideal offense. Throw in possibly the best FB in the league in Richardson and it's a bonus. TE would be the big question as well as the tackles.

As far as defending it goes... To me pass rush is the key. The Packers and Patriots both looked pretty damn good against the teams that can't get any pressure(Vikings and Jets come to mind) but didn't look so flash against the teams that really can bring heat(Baltimore, Dallas and Giants). They both struggled against those teams and a few others that can also get to the QB. Really that seems to be the key, basically the pass rush allows your safeties to cheat a bit, because you know those supposed deep routes are going to be intermediate at best. I think you basically want to get maximum pressure and force the QB into his check down routes, like the slot and RB. The success of the offense then becomes based around those guys ability to make players miss. Maroney, Welker, Faulk, Driver and Jennings all excel at this, in fact it would probably be amongst the things they all do best.

I think it is very much a personnel thing though. I think the QB is probably of minimal importance here, sure the better he is, the better it will work and he does need to good with his decision making(what offense doesn't need that?) but I think that despite it being a pass happy offense, it is not as important. I certainly think that the ability to make guys miss is more important with the RB than their pass blocking, especially because I like the idea of running this kind of offense with a lot of rollouts and bootlegs, basically designs to create time(only needed if you are under pressure obviously). RB is another weapon, as much as a receiver as a runner. WR you need a mix of speed, size and hands. OL really just needs to be able to pass block, imo, this offense goes against football folklore, you will be passing to create the run and not vice-versa, agile, big pass blockers are the key.

Personally if I was to make a realistic team for this kind of offense I would be looking at something like this...

QB - David Garrard - Adequate Runner, Accurate Passer, Very Good decision making skills.
RB - Reggie Bush - Great receiver, shifty and effective in open space, important cog. YAC is key.
WR1 - Roy Williams - This is the Randy Moss type player. Big, Fast and can make the circus catch. Needs to draw a consistent double or at least merit it.
WR2 - Bernard Berrian - Needs straightline speed. Must be a burner. Very Fast, Good with the Deep Ball, helps if he can run screen plays effectively.
Slot - Wes Welker - An easy choice. Tough, Great Hands, Willingness to go over the middle. Ability to make players miss after the catch. YAC is key.
TE - Jason Witten - I think would be the dream. Pass blocking is important, but probably not as important as receiving skills. Run blocking adds a lot of diversity to the offense, especially given you are likely to have a shifty back and be looking to run off tackle a fair bit. Run Blocking, Pass Blocking, Speed and hands.

OL - I like big lines. Again, Pass blocking is more important than run blocking, have to be able to protect the QB or the offense is doomed. Likely to see a lot of speed rushers though so agility and quickness are as important as strength or size.

I think a setup like this can work, I also think that a couple of missing pieces are all it takes to give it no chance. Take the Vikings for instance. The inability of the LT and RT to pass block, complete lack of TE and RB options as well as a WR who isn't a real threat because of drops(Williamson) mean the offense fails. QB doesn't have the time he needs. Also, removing Rice from the situation completely kills it, WR1 is the irreplaceable part.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Also, removing Rice from the situation completely kills it, WR1 is the irreplaceable part.
I disagree with this. I think the most important part of this offense is the slot receiver. I guess my offense would be more of a Run and Shoot/WCO offense hybrid. Short crossing routes and quick outs by the slot receivers would be paramount for me.

I would also rather have a bruising back who can pass block really well, rather than a RB like Bush who is an excellent receiver out of the backfield. It would be nice to have a backup who is that kind of back. Someone like a Bradshaw, or even better(getting a slightly old school here) Dave Meggett. Anyone who is considered a third down back would be an excellent back-up here. They would primarily get playing time against those teams that have poor pass rushes, when an extra blocker isn't required to stay in.
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Ness is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by someone447 View Post
I disagree with this. I think the most important part of this offense is the slot receiver. I guess my offense would be more of a Run and Shoot/WCO offense hybrid. Short crossing routes and quick outs by the slot receivers would be paramount for me.

I would also rather have a bruising back who can pass block really well, rather than a RB like Bush who is an excellent receiver out of the backfield. It would be nice to have a backup who is that kind of back. Someone like a Bradshaw, or even better(getting a slightly old school here) Dave Meggett. Anyone who is considered a third down back would be an excellent back-up here. They would primarily get playing time against those teams that have poor pass rushes, when an extra blocker isn't required to stay in.
Yes, you'd want a big bruising halfback that could block if you're going to be passing that much. I think someone like Garrison Hearst in his prime would be great.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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