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Old 02-25-2008, 01:04 PM    (permalink
SenorGato
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Originally Posted by The Great Jonathan Vilma View Post
the issue of tarnishing an image is all subjective. They will never put an asterisk or any of that crap in the record books, its all in people's heads what the image is. Simple fact, the Patriots image in my mind is tarnished, Dallas and what they did is a seperate issue. By no means are you going to clear the Pats name by throwing out more claims, because the Patriots were caught flat out. Will it make you feel better if Dallas is caught also? It doesn't change anything with regards to NE, i hope u realize that
So admitting to cheating is OK as long as you weren't caught doing it?

I'd think a name as significant as Jimmy Johnson's would make people go "oh."

I'm a Jets fan, but the Pats videotaping is such a meh when you unisolate (is that a word?) the incident and look at the sport as a whole.

The fact that they got caught means they should get punished for their actions. But their reputation tarnished and so on? Way too extreme.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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It looks like you're overlooking/not acknowledging this part:

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so thatís when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying donít do it any more, he did it.

He was told not to by the league and still did it. It wasn't just the rule was in place and not mentioned. I'm not sure what else to say about that?
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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It looks like you're overlooking/not acknowledging this part:

Q: You think the NFL came down too hard on them?

JJ: No, no, I said it on the show. He was wrong for doing it for the simple reason that the league knew this was going on not just in New England but around the league. And the league sent out the memorandum to all of the teams saying you cannot do this. And so thatís when Bill Belichick was wrong. After he got the memorandum saying donít do it any more, he did it.

He was told not to by the league and still did it. It wasn't just the rule was in place and not mentioned. I'm not sure what else to say about that?
I don't think anyone is saying that the Pats shouldn't have been punished. If they are then you are 100% correct they most certainly should have been punished.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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It's nice being a fan of a team that wins a Super Bowl the right way
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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It's nice being a fan of a team that wins a Super Bowl the right way
Ha ha its not like the Giants are without skeletons in their closet. If memory servers me right LT admitted to hiring prostitutes and sending them to the opposing RB's hotel room.

But I digress, I am a Lions fan it would be nice to win a Super Bowl in any way possible.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Could everyone just stop posting in Jays Threads (at least those concerning spygate)? Just say he is right and everything is okay...im sick of all these threads
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Ha ha its not like the Giants are without skeletons in their closet. If memory servers me right LT admitted to hiring prostitutes and sending them to the opposing RB's hotel room.

But I digress, I am a Lions fan it would be nice to win a Super Bowl in any way possible.
The question is, did he videotape it and bribe them into losing?

On a serious note, these scumbag coaches are a damn disgrace to the game.
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Old 02-25-2008, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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The fact we are still talking about it as if it was current events 1/2 year later is a bit excessive IMO.
maybe you should tell that to the Pats fan that keeps bringing it up. I don't think anyone is really interested in talking about the Patriots and what they did anymore either.
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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maybe you should tell that to the Pats fan that keeps bringing it up. I don't think anyone is really interested in talking about the Patriots and what they did anymore either.
apparently there still are people
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Old 02-25-2008, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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Dude, come on. Don't be naive. If the Patriots had access to the tapes, they would have used them. ANYONE would have used them. BB may not have told Walsh to do it, but if Walsh came in and said, "I have some tapes you should watch, you might learn something new."*wink wink* I can promise you BB will look at those.
That is flat out, pure assumption. Nobody has proof, and more than likely never will have proof that he/they used the tapes that Walsh apparently (he must) has. Do you know for a fact that he used the tapes, or are you just saying he did because he has been caught taping signals in games since then? You don't know for a fact, and until someone does, and more importantly can prove it, then there will be no further sanctions against the patriots for the walsh tapes, at least not without legal action by the patriots in retaliation.
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Old 02-25-2008, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Sure its assumption but is freaking common sense...
and its not like we (at least I) want them to be stripped of all the SBs or so. But their dynasty is tainted. People will always think about these accusations and the cheating. it doesnt matter if its true or not, the fact that they cheated once (proven) and the assumption of more cheating taints the dynasty for a lot of people (well not for everyone, duhhh)

btw ill take a guess and say ur a Pats fan
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Old 02-25-2008, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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That is flat out, pure assumption. Nobody has proof, and more than likely never will have proof that he/they used the tapes that Walsh apparently (he must) has. Do you know for a fact that he used the tapes, or are you just saying he did because he has been caught taping signals in games since then? You don't know for a fact, and until someone does, and more importantly can prove it, then there will be no further sanctions against the patriots for the walsh tapes, at least not without legal action by the patriots in retaliation.
If I find a murdered persons blood in your house, it is safe to assume you killed them, right(or were at least somehow involved)? This is the same thing. Walsh was a member of the Patriots organization. We already know that BB isn't the paradigm of virtue. Hell, even if he was Tony Dungy, I wouldn't doubt for a second that he used them. You take every advantage you can get. Everyone lies, everyone cheats. That is a fact of life. People are not virtuous. They will take every advantage they can get.

Walsh having the tapes is all the proof the NFL will need. They won't strip the Pats of the Super Bowls. They will probably suspend Belicheck. The Pats won't be able to sue the NFL. Let's say that BB actually had a moment of utmost virtuosity and declined the view the tapes. The Patriots are still responsible for their employees. BB will not get out of this unscathed. He will either be pushed into retirement, or he will be suspended.

On a side note, I will be pissed if they strip the Super Bowl. I will also be pissed if they get off scot free. BB is going to be the fall guy, mark my words.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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i'd be more than happy to see BB as the fall guy. It would be really interesting if Pats management did something to BB themselves, potentially trying to seperate themselves from what he did and show that they don't condone his actions. That won't happen, but should would put an interesting spin on things.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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Sure its assumption but is freaking common sense...
and its not like we (at least I) want them to be stripped of all the SBs or so. But their dynasty is tainted. People will always think about these accusations and the cheating. it doesnt matter if its true or not, the fact that they cheated once (proven) and the assumption of more cheating taints the dynasty for a lot of people (well not for everyone, duhhh)

btw ill take a guess and say ur a Pats fan
Common sense doesn't cut it in this case. Alot of people (I know not you) have said that the superbowl (s) should be stripped. In order for that to happen, there would have to be proof that they actually used the tapes, which at this point there is not. You have to admit that. Yes it looks bad, but it's walsh's word against BB's, no proof.
I agree, the legacy is tainted, but I believe what Jay is getting at (I know I am) is that it is being overly assaulted by members of the media and members of the football community (meaning fans not players etc.), when other teams have been found doing the same thing and have not been punished.

And I am a diehard pats fan, have been since I was a kid, before they were good.
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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If I find a murdered persons blood in your house, it is safe to assume you killed them, right(or were at least somehow involved)? This is the same thing. Walsh was a member of the Patriots organization. We already know that BB isn't the paradigm of virtue. Hell, even if he was Tony Dungy, I wouldn't doubt for a second that he used them. You take every advantage you can get. Everyone lies, everyone cheats. That is a fact of life. People are not virtuous. They will take every advantage they can get.

Walsh having the tapes is all the proof the NFL will need. They won't strip the Pats of the Super Bowls. They will probably suspend Belicheck. The Pats won't be able to sue the NFL. Let's say that BB actually had a moment of utmost virtuosity and declined the view the tapes. The Patriots are still responsible for their employees. BB will not get out of this unscathed. He will either be pushed into retirement, or he will be suspended.

On a side note, I will be pissed if they strip the Super Bowl. I will also be pissed if they get off scot free. BB is going to be the fall guy, mark my words.
I'm not trying to say what Walsh did was right, or that there is no chance that BB used the tapes, because thats just ridiculous to think. My point is that nobody can prove it (with the current evidence, circumstances etc.). But there is a chance that BB did not use the tapes if he knew about them. And the only way I could see the pats taking law action against the NFL would be if they stripped them of a superbowl with only the current cirumstances, not if BB is suspended. And it is a very good possibility that BB will be pushed out the door, or at least suspended, something we agree on.
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Old 02-25-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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I am in no way condoning the Cowboys cheating, but the question marks about the validity of Superbowls is a bit different between the two teams.

Cowboys 52
Bills 17

Cowboys 30
Bills 13

Cowboys 27
Steelers 17

The only one of those games that it seems like the outcome could have been altered due to the cheating is the Steelers game, possibly. The other two are basically blowouts. The Patriots on the other hand won 3 games by 3 points. It should be obvious that the question of whether they would have still won those games looms much larger for the Patriots than the Cowboys. With that being said, I am not condoning the Cowboys actions, I am simply saying that the outcomes of their games almost certainly wouldn't have changed if they didn't tape, except maybe the Steelers. As for the other NFC teams they played during those playoffs, I haven't looked at the scores, but if those were close games then yes those teams have a legitimate gripe.
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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I am in no way condoning the Cowboys cheating, but the question marks about the validity of Superbowls is a bit different between the two teams.

Cowboys 52
Bills 17

Cowboys 30
Bills 13

Cowboys 27
Steelers 17

The only one of those games that it seems like the outcome could have been altered due to the cheating is the Steelers game, possibly. The other two are basically blowouts. The Patriots on the other hand won 3 games by 3 points. It should be obvious that the question of whether they would have still won those games looms much larger for the Patriots than the Cowboys. With that being said, I am not condoning the Cowboys actions, I am simply saying that the outcomes of their games almost certainly wouldn't have changed if they didn't tape, except maybe the Steelers. As for the other NFC teams they played during those playoffs, I haven't looked at the scores, but if those were close games then yes those teams have a legitimate gripe.
And Jimmy Johnson was no longer the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys in Super Bowl XXX against the Steelers, so if he did videotape other team's defensive signal callers, it's unknown whether the practice continued under Barry Switzer.
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Old 02-25-2008, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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I am in no way condoning the Cowboys cheating, but the question marks about the validity of Superbowls is a bit different between the two teams.

Cowboys 52
Bills 17

Cowboys 30
Bills 13

Cowboys 27
Steelers 17

The only one of those games that it seems like the outcome could have been altered due to the cheating is the Steelers game, possibly. The other two are basically blowouts. The Patriots on the other hand won 3 games by 3 points. It should be obvious that the question of whether they would have still won those games looms much larger for the Patriots than the Cowboys. With that being said, I am not condoning the Cowboys actions, I am simply saying that the outcomes of their games almost certainly wouldn't have changed if they didn't tape, except maybe the Steelers. As for the other NFC teams they played during those playoffs, I haven't looked at the scores, but if those were close games then yes those teams have a legitimate gripe.

It's not just about the superbowls. And even if we look at the superbowls, maybe its because the talent difference was much greater than it was for the pats teams and their opponents.
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Old 02-26-2008, 07:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by iloxygenil View Post
Does it make it any more right? No...
EXACTLY!!!!
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Old 02-26-2008, 08:27 PM    (permalink
TitanHope
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Originally Posted by Jay
But it's OK to baselessly speculate everything the Patriots might have done, and I am naive for not buying all the BS everyone spews about what the Pats did. Yup, I buy that. I mean, there's all these stories coming out about this team and that team doing it and former players saying "everyone was doing it," but I'll just buy into what a bunch of kids sitting at keyboards say over them. Yup, yup, yup.
Everyone has an opinion. You're a Pats fan, and you're opinion is that the Pats' Championships are clean. But if a Colts fan, for example, says that there's a good chance that the Pats did something illegal during those Super Bowl wins, would he be wrong? Or would he be correct? The obvious answer is neither, as they weren't caught doing anything. But, one would think that the Colts fan's opinion may be most likely due to the Pats being caught once. It is pure speculation, but it is not baseless. The Pats were caught cheating while under Bill Belichick, and Belichick was the coach during those wins. One wouldn't be out of line to say that there's a possibility that the Pats did it not only in their previous Super Bowls, but in their previous seasons as well. Just because a bunch of teams may have been cheating too doesn't mean that the Pats were suddenly on the same playing field with the entire league.

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WHAT?@!?!?!?!??r?wt$?y$%y?@#?? HAHAHAHAHA.

It... doesn't... matter... because... it... wasn't... a controversy? GIVE ME A ******* BREAK. This is pathetic. PATHETIC. Same act, same rule (which oh by the way, was very much in place "back then"), same crime.

PERIOD

I absolutely LOVE IT that you are all reaching for your excuse books to try and actually convince yourselves that this is any different. It's laughable. And it proves what I've said all along: you're bitter and taking it out on the Pats.
It was a rule back in the 90's? My mistake then.

If Jimmie Johnson did it today, he'd get the same treatment as Belichick. But that fact is that is was done in the past, and that the only proof we have of this is Johnson's word. No video tapes or anything. Just because an attention seeking ex-coach claims something does not mean we can go, "Oh hell, lets just shrug this thing off!" It doesn't matter how many Championships he's won.

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Aww the poor baby doesn't like it when his team's actions are called into question. What's the matter? Don't like people nit-picking your team? Get in line and join the club.
Lol, no, the baby doesn't like it. Unlike the Pats, the Titans aren't shady from top to bottom. We have two players who committed the dirty acts; not the entire team. Haynesworth was an isolated incident. PacMan has been in the league for two whole seasons when he messed up. I don't mind nit-picking when they're in the form of pathetic, cheap shots. Nice try though.

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Riiiiiiiiight, you keep telling yourself that buddy. It was as dirty as any play Harrison has ever made.
If I remember correctly, there was a play going towards Wade, and Wade was locked with Harrison. Wade then blocked Harrison below the waist, and effectively, and legally, took Harrison out of the play. Incidentally, the block caused Harrison's injured leg to worsen and was forced to leave the game. Harrison then accused Wade of intentially diving towards Harrison's injured leg. If you watch the tape, you see Harrison and Wade tied up, the ball carrier running towards the two, and Wade diving at Harrison's legs, which was the move effective way for the undersized Wade to take Harrison out of the play.

Harrison made the mistake of playing in a pointless game for the Pats while injured, and he was hurt worse in the process. He was understandably angry, but he took it out on Wade by calling him dirty. It wasn't dirty. Harrison was hurt on a routine, legal block and played the diva card.

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Oh I see, so it's OK to intentionally hurt guys with a bad reputation. I can see where that makes sense.
I never said that, but good on you for twisting my words. It's just ironic when a notorious bank robber gets angry for being pick-pocketed. Well, since he wasn't intentially hurt, I guess it's more like a notorious bank robber accidentally losing his wallet and complaining about it.

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The Patriots lost by four points after leading almost the entire game. Rodney Harrison OWNS Peyton Manning and the teams is a different team with him in the lineup. Yes, he would have made a difference. A huge one.
If he's that significant of a cog for the defense against the Colts, then the Pats were idiots for playing Harrison while he's hurt. He could have been chop blocked or just hurt himself during a tackle. You have no one to blame but yourselves. But I understand. It's easier to blame others for your own musfortune.

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Non-existent? Maybe to those of you who aren't forced to read the absolute garbage that gets spewed on a daily basis...

And yeah, if you can't look at what Jimmy Johnson says he did his entire career and what the Patriots did and say "wow, it's the same thing," then you are hypocrite. Period.
I had to read the PacMan Jones drama all summer. I know what it feels like. But I don't read anything today, and I haven't read anything recently. So it would be foolish of me to make a thread going, "PacMan given probation for Georgia incident," it would only stir up more, "He's never coming back into the NFL," "He'll be dead by the time he's 26," etc. It would hurt more than help.

It is the same thing. But if you think both will be treated the same way, you are hopelessly naive.
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Damn Ke$ha is sexy.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm just going to let it go because my point has been made. The hypocrisy exists and I am fine with that little nugget being exposed. Kind of like the reason no one is talking about all the tampering going on right now with Asante Samuel.

It was fun for everyone while it lasted, not we can turn out the lights and move on until some actual, factual news comes out...

PS - Pacman paid his debt, let him play.
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:03 AM    (permalink
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If I find a murdered persons blood in your house, it is safe to assume you killed them, right(or were at least somehow involved)? This is the same thing. Walsh was a member of the Patriots organization. We already know that BB isn't the paradigm of virtue. Hell, even if he was Tony Dungy, I wouldn't doubt for a second that he used them. You take every advantage you can get. Everyone lies, everyone cheats. That is a fact of life. People are not virtuous. They will take every advantage they can get.

Walsh having the tapes is all the proof the NFL will need. They won't strip the Pats of the Super Bowls. They will probably suspend Belicheck. The Pats won't be able to sue the NFL. Let's say that BB actually had a moment of utmost virtuosity and declined the view the tapes. The Patriots are still responsible for their employees. BB will not get out of this unscathed. He will either be pushed into retirement, or he will be suspended.

On a side note, I will be pissed if they strip the Super Bowl. I will also be pissed if they get off scot free. BB is going to be the fall guy, mark my words.
Dont be so sure they arent stripped of a SB. Supposedly the Rams may just press to have the SB stripped from the Patriots if Walsh actually has a tape. Peter King thinks they may just push for it

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ine/index.html

Over the weekend, I spoke with former Rams coach Mike Martz about the allegation that the Patriots videotaped St. Louis' walk through practice the day before Super Bowl XXXVI. He says the Ram practice that day consisted of the offense running its red-zone plays at half speed. I hear that Martz and other Ram people are privately talking much tougher, and I think it's possible, if there is tape of the walk through, the Rams may press the league to have the outcome of the game overturned.





I'll tell you one thing. If a tape shows up and Martz and Warner go public that they want the SB stripped from New England it will be. The PR nightmare for the NFL would be too much for Kraft's poodle, Goodell to coverup anymore
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:42 AM    (permalink
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The NFL will never do it. And what has it been? A month since Walsh opened his mouth? And so far... nothing.

He wants total immunity... from what? It has been confirmed he has no confidentiality agreement, so there's no need for immunity. He blew his chance, and there's just another one of his lies coming out.

And how does an assistant golf pro in Hawaii end up with a big shot political lawyer in Washington DC, anyway?
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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its only cheating if you get caught, and that was what, ten years ago? I really could care less.
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i love my pedestal. thats why im the mythbusta.
who dey?
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Old 02-27-2008, 09:04 AM    (permalink
Jay
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Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb. Total hypocrisy.

"It's OK to do it, just don't get caught"

Yup, yup, yup...
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