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View Poll Results: Who is your favorite philosopher(s)?
Ancient Philosophy (Aristotle, Plato) 13 19.40%
Scholasticism (St. Thomas Aquinas) 3 4.48%
Renaissance Humanism (Thomas More, Erasmus) 1 1.49%
Rationalism (Descartes, Voltaire, Kant) 18 26.87%
Empiricism, Social Contract (John Locke, David Hume) 11 16.42%
Social Materialism/Marxism (Karl Marx, Hegel) 6 8.96%
Existentialism (Kafka, Nietzsche) 7 10.45%
Post-Moderism/Structuralism (Derrida, Foucault, Nietzsche) 5 7.46%
Analytical Philosophy (Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein) 1 1.49%
Structuralism (Levi-Strauss, Ferdinand de Saussure, Chomsky) 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2009, 11:40 PM    (permalink
Brent
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I couldn't see there being any doubt about that.
I wasn't doubting that, I guess I am at a loss for words as to how I would describe our economic system.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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In that article, Forbes would love to project the idea that any one can get as rich as those individuals. Why? That whole idea of the "American Dream," as disillusioned as it is, promotes capitalism. Capitalism keeps these guys rich because it promotes uneven distribution of wealth and power. That power/wealth going to the people on that list.

Not all will agree but that is my take on it.
I'm talking about how could statistics that are just financial information like this be biased, not the reasons Forbes has for being biased.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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What would you describe our economic system as, mixed system?
Not sure exactly how I would describe it, but it definately has multiple parts. There is definately some socialism in there with all the social programs, welfare and such. Sadly it isn't run very well. There are chances for people who are poor enough/disadvantaged enough, but throwing a free education at disadvantaged kids doesn't take care of any of the poverty issues. The middle class is disappearing as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. America is further becoming a nation of the haves and the have nots, but nobody on the top seems to really care.

So to answer your question, not sure how I describe it, but I'm clearly not a big fan.
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Old 05-04-2009, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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I think mixed economy is a good term, yes. Most Western countries are mixed economies these days, although to a different extent than the US.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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I wasn't doubting that, I guess I am at a loss for words as to how I would describe our economic system.
Well, I can't recall the last economic system which sat neatly in the capitalist or communist seat. The two most high profile communist economies, the USSR and the People's Republic of China weren't anything like the Marxist ideal and the only real capitalist economy I can think of probably existed in the Western US around the time of Civil War before the US Government focused their energy there (but that was, at most, still less than a decade of sizable existence).

Our economy is what it is. A capitalist idea battling socialist practicalities, all brow beaten by an unnerving need to move in the vague direction of forward at all costs.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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I wasn't doubting that, I guess I am at a loss for words as to how I would describe our economic system.
well private ownership under public control could be called fascism ;)

But seriously I like the term crony-capitalism because I feel like it really gets the spirit of wall street and washington.
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:01 AM    (permalink
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well private ownership under public control could be called fascism
From that site: "The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal"

And with that I refer to the previous declaration: "Ayn Rand is trash"

EDIT: when you guys were talking about needs, limitless resources and etc., was I the only one who thought of Hume's is-ought problem?
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Old 05-05-2009, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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From that site: "The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal"

And with that I refer to the previous declaration: "Ayn Rand is trash"

EDIT: when you guys were talking about needs, limitless resources and etc., was I the only one who thought of Hume's is-ought problem?
I'm going to avoid the argument that functionally a socialist society varies only ever so slightly from a fascist one, but my feeling is that since what is has worked very well for us we can discover a world that might not ought to exist in the purest sense but ought to exist if we're focused on continuing to progress. It's something to think about for sure, but in this case we're discussing pretty fundamental aspects of our species that have worked for our species so far and so we can try and extrapolate a world that ought to exist that we can work with.
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Old 05-05-2009, 02:20 AM    (permalink
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...but my feeling is that since what is has worked very well for us we can discover a world that might not ought to exist in the purest sense but ought to exist if we're focused on continuing to progress.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Please explain.
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Old 05-05-2009, 06:56 AM    (permalink
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who used to have that quote in their sig?

i believe it was dam
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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From that site: "The difference between [socialism and fascism] is superficial and purely formal"

And with that I refer to the previous declaration: "Ayn Rand is trash"

EDIT: when you guys were talking about needs, limitless resources and etc., was I the only one who thought of Hume's is-ought problem?
Yeah, socialism is pretty broad, and fascism is also pretty broad, and different. Hard to compare. To compare them is to twist definitions to make a point (god there I go again).

So why did you think about Hume's is-ought problem?
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, socialism is pretty broad, and fascism is also pretty broad, and different. Hard to compare. To compare them is to twist definitions to make a point (god there I go again).

So why did you think about Hume's is-ought problem?
i think its exactly the problem
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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this is what happens when i go away?

BF51 i'm so excited.

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the biggest mistake humanity ever made was believe that we need dumb **** like plasma tv's, cars and other luxuries. We don't need anything like that. But I gotta say good job capitalism for thrusting that idea into our heads.
you should see what it's like for girls.

having to be something their not in order to get ahead. sacrificing self at the expense of 'progress'. material things are one thing, the fashion of 'success' is something much more deadly.
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Please explain.
Isn't the basic issue with Hume's is-ought problem that since we only know the world that is we can't really determine what world there ought to be, or is my memory completely shot to ****?
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Isn't the basic issue with Hume's is-ought problem that since we only know the world that is we can't really determine what world there ought to be, or is my memory completely shot to ****?
sorta.

it's the building of a social moral structure, from an individualistic standpoint. it really depends on what one would believe they know of the world in order to make such is-ought statements.

people saying things ought to be way X may not hold true for certain people, and thus, we have the duty to question and dissent ought statements. i had a ridiculous conversation with this last night with total strangers. from a more catholic point of view, but in relation to how much effort should you put into spreading the message you believe in, and what good will it will do.
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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So why did you think about Hume's is-ought problem?
Not that it's related but just that people here were talking about how things ought to be and how they are.

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people saying things ought to be way X may not hold true for certain people, and thus, we have the duty to question and dissent ought statements. i had a ridiculous conversation with this last night with total strangers. from a more catholic point of view, but in relation to how much effort should you put into spreading the message you believe in, and what good will it will do.
Honestly, I think the discussion of is-ought leads to moral relativism and that's on that really gets to the more religious types.
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Old 05-05-2009, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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sorta.

it's the building of a social moral structure, from an individualistic standpoint. it really depends on what one would believe they know of the world in order to make such is-ought statements.

people saying things ought to be way X may not hold true for certain people, and thus, we have the duty to question and dissent ought statements. i had a ridiculous conversation with this last night with total strangers. from a more catholic point of view, but in relation to how much effort should you put into spreading the message you believe in, and what good will it will do.
okay that's similar to what I thought, always nice to know that I haven't lost my mind yet, so what I was trying to say was that we truly can't find a universal world that "ought" to be, be it because all our thoughts are tainted by the world that is or because we are dependent on our own perceptions, but since the world that is has been very beneficial and successful for humanity I think we can use our history to extrapolate a future that would be likewise beneficial.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I think the discussion of is-ought leads to moral relativism and that's on that really gets to the more religious types.
no kidding. that said. i do believe locke has the only 'ought', "life liberty and property".

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okay that's similar to what I thought, always nice to know that I haven't lost my mind yet, so what I was trying to say was that we truly can't find a universal world that "ought" to be, be it because all our thoughts are tainted by the world that is or because we are dependent on our own perceptions, but since the world that is has been very beneficial and successful for humanity I think we can use our history to extrapolate a future that would be likewise beneficial.
the problem with using history is that the world moves so much faster than it used to. it's like comparing pre-locomotive days to post-locomotive days, pre-flight days to post-flight days... the time it takes for news to travel is so much shorter, and thus, the world is so much smaller, faster, and more compact than ever.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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...but since the world that is has been very beneficial and successful for humanity I think we can use our history to extrapolate a future that would be likewise beneficial.
That's a huge statement to make without major backup in hand, just so you know. If I were put towards, I would say that a continuation of what "is" is likely an impossibility for a myriad of reasons (which dwell mostly in the "practical" landscape). Unless you were being very broad with that, in which case you didn't really say anything in that.

Then again, the is-ought problem has to exist in a dimension of what "can be", and how much restriction that places on the discussion often comes down to personal preference of what truly is possible.

I agree with Hume, but not on the exact same basis. Long lasting social moral structures are broad and vague (often to the point that the structure is invisible when you are raised inside of it). Anytime a statement is made with an inflection of "ought", it runs the risk of being useless, but not necessarily because of a problem of subjective perception or lack of proper input processing (or however you want to say it). "Ought" statements are, by definition, personal moral extrapolation onto a map larger than yourself. The only real way that an "ought" is made functional is when people start agreeing on them and (more importantly) acting on them.

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Old 05-05-2009, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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no kidding.
I actually had a large debate with someone about moral relativism (head of the A&M YCT) and it was only about 10 minutes in that he disclosed that he was Catholic and I realized that the argument was pointless, even when I presented to him the idea that, if he were born in Iraq, it's likely that he'd be Muslim, but it wasnt worth the effort.
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Old 05-05-2009, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Been a while since my last philosophy class, but I always thought Plato was pretty badass considering the time-frame in which he was speaking.

I enjoyed Voltaire a lot as well.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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Been a while since my last philosophy class, but I always thought Plato was pretty badass considering the time-frame in which he was speaking.

I enjoyed Voltaire a lot as well.
Voltaire is French.

Hypocrite.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Voltaire is French.

Hypocrite.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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I voted rationalism, but that is because I didn't see existentialism. I really Kafka and Camus, they were really interesting to read about.
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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you sexist!
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