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Old 11-15-2006, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
While Rivers has looked good I think he is being greatly overhyped. He has only played 9 games.

People were calling Ben a fluke after his first two years in the league that he played at a high level. Why isn't Rivers still considered a fluke considering he's only played 9 games and also has the best RB and TE in the game at his dispossal and has yet to beat a .500 team.
Because he is playing extremely well and leading this team. Big Ben was kind of a product of that team, while Rivers isn't.
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Old 11-15-2006, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Whats missed in this entire conversion is how many late game comebacks Eli has had compared to his counterparts. Eli always plays better in the 4th, and some of his late game heroics have not been duplicated by both Rivers and Ben. Some of his plays were simply amazing. He may not be as consistent as Rivers at this point in his career, but he is definately more of a late game qb then both Ben and Rivers, and has shown more moxy than both of them in key moments in the 4th in close games.

I think the true test for Rivers will be against Denver. Now he finally plays a real team, let's see what he's made of.

Didn't the Chargers just score 42 points in the second half, on the road, when down by three touchdowns? In which, Rivers was the catalyst.
1. It was against the Bengals, the fantasy football elixer of all offensive players
2. LT scored 4 TDs in that game, it wasn't Phillip carrying the offense, they still ran the ball like hell.
3. I cede the point that he led the team and had his first comeback, but was it as impressive as Eli's vs the Eagles? Or Eli vs the Broncos? Or Eli vs the Cowboys last year (lost in OT with the coin flip)? Eli has done it more often, and against impressive defenses. I just need to see more from Phillip in terms of building his resume.

His true test comes this week. We'll know what he's made of this week.
looks like someone didn't watch the game.

edited to add: i would hardly call running the ball 38% of the time "running like hell." i WOULD say throwing the ball 62% of the time throwing like hell though.
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Old 11-15-2006, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by draftguru151
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
While Rivers has looked good I think he is being greatly overhyped. He has only played 9 games.

People were calling Ben a fluke after his first two years in the league that he played at a high level. Why isn't Rivers still considered a fluke considering he's only played 9 games and also has the best RB and TE in the game at his dispossal and has yet to beat a .500 team.
Because he is playing extremely well and leading this team. Big Ben was kind of a product of that team, while Rivers isn't.
Ben definately played extremly well. The main reason that he wasn't leading the team in his first year starting is that he was a rookie and Rivers now gets to wait until his 3rd year in the league to start his first game. Plus Rivers has as good if not better supporting cast as Ben had in 2004 when he went 14-0 as a starter.

I just think it is way to early to Rivers' success when he has the best RB and TE in the game to play with.
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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All three guys have been given quite the supporting cast. While Rivers does play with the best RB and TE in the league, Eli has probably has the number 2 or 3 best RB in the league, a borderline top ten WR in the league, an above average #2 WR and a borderline top 5 TE in the league. Big Ben has a top ten WR in the league, the best OL of the group and a very good RB. All three guys are lucky they weren't dealt JP Losman or Alex Smith hands.

Rivers has played virtually flawless for 9 games this season. Do I want to see it for an entire season? Sure, but I've been waiting for Eli and Ben to put together a consistenct season as well.

If Rivers stumbles some of the next few games then I think he falls back into the group. Ben and Eli are capable of some wonderful games but they are also prone to making some key mistakes and a prone to pretty awful games. However, if you've watched Rivers any of the season, I think you'll see that it's pretty unlikely he will have a disaster game.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by draftguru151
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
While Rivers has looked good I think he is being greatly overhyped. He has only played 9 games.

People were calling Ben a fluke after his first two years in the league that he played at a high level. Why isn't Rivers still considered a fluke considering he's only played 9 games and also has the best RB and TE in the game at his dispossal and has yet to beat a .500 team.
Because he is playing extremely well and leading this team. Big Ben was kind of a product of that team, while Rivers isn't.
Ben definately played extremly well. The main reason that he wasn't leading the team in his first year starting is that he was a rookie and Rivers now gets to wait until his 3rd year in the league to start his first game. Plus Rivers has as good if not better supporting cast as Ben had in 2004 when he went 14-0 as a starter.

I just think it is way to early to Rivers' success when he has the best RB and TE in the game to play with.
If Ben was a product of the system, then so is Eli and Rivers.

Rivers has to throw to Gates, and LT. Occasionally, McCardell or Floyd. It's not like he doesn't have the top Skills guys of the 3.

Not to mention he has the best defense, so there's no pressure to win from behind almost every game. Very few games have they been behind.

Eli has the next best Skills guys. Plaxico and Toomer are a great duo, I'd love for ben to have a big target. I wish Plax played as hard as he does in NY for Pit. And Tiki, he's the 2nd best RB in the league.

Ben, Has an oline, and it's shown this year that his WR's are starting to show flaws, they can't catch or get open. On 5 occasions, Ben threw a perfect pass this season, to a guy that should've made the catch. The next play he threw an INT, because he was the only one making the effort.

Ben has been the only shining spot this season. He had some trouble getting started, but his defense has not done anything. He has to score 40+ points a game to ensure a win. And he's not effective when he can't get on the field because of Special teams play. although .. 433 yards against Denvers "Shut Down" Defense was pretty sweet. Take away the 3 fumbles, and that game was very much pittsburghs.

not to mention San Diego has played squat for Competition:

Wins:
Oakland
Tennessee
Pittsburgh
San Francisco
St. Louis
Cleveland
Cincinnatti

Losses:
Kansas City
Baltimore.

Outside of Pitt and Cincy and the inconsistant St. Louis Rams... I think thats a little unfair to compare Rivers to Eli or Ben at the moment.


Everyone says Bens a game manager... Fine

I'll take a Superbowl ring.. 29-10 record in the regular season for 3 years, with 2 AFC Championship trips.
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Old 11-16-2006, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by draftguru151
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
While Rivers has looked good I think he is being greatly overhyped. He has only played 9 games.

People were calling Ben a fluke after his first two years in the league that he played at a high level. Why isn't Rivers still considered a fluke considering he's only played 9 games and also has the best RB and TE in the game at his dispossal and has yet to beat a .500 team.
Because he is playing extremely well and leading this team. Big Ben was kind of a product of that team, while Rivers isn't.
Ben definately played extremly well. The main reason that he wasn't leading the team in his first year starting is that he was a rookie and Rivers now gets to wait until his 3rd year in the league to start his first game. Plus Rivers has as good if not better supporting cast as Ben had in 2004 when he went 14-0 as a starter.

I just think it is way to early to Rivers' success when he has the best RB and TE in the game to play with.
If Ben was a product of the system, then so is Eli and Rivers.

Rivers has to throw to Gates, and LT. Occasionally, McCardell or Floyd. It's not like he doesn't have the top Skills guys of the 3.

Not to mention he has the best defense, so there's no pressure to win from behind almost every game. Very few games have they been behind.

Eli has the next best Skills guys. Plaxico and Toomer are a great duo, I'd love for ben to have a big target. I wish Plax played as hard as he does in NY for Pit. And Tiki, he's the 2nd best RB in the league.

Ben, Has an oline, and it's shown this year that his WR's are starting to show flaws, they can't catch or get open. On 5 occasions, Ben threw a perfect pass this season, to a guy that should've made the catch. The next play he threw an INT, because he was the only one making the effort.

Ben has been the only shining spot this season. He had some trouble getting started, but his defense has not done anything. He has to score 40+ points a game to ensure a win. And he's not effective when he can't get on the field because of Special teams play. although .. 433 yards against Denvers "Shut Down" Defense was pretty sweet. Take away the 3 fumbles, and that game was very much pittsburghs.

not to mention San Diego has played squat for Competition:

Wins:
Oakland
Tennessee
Pittsburgh
San Francisco
St. Louis
Cleveland
Cincinnatti

Losses:
Kansas City
Baltimore.

Outside of Pitt and Cincy and the inconsistant St. Louis Rams... I think thats a little unfair to compare Rivers to Eli or Ben at the moment.


Everyone says Bens a game manager... Fine

I'll take a Superbowl ring.. 29-10 record in the regular season for 3 years, with 2 AFC Championship trips.
simmer down, lady. This thread is pointless. All three are and will be excellent quarterbacks. Why should we have to compare three totally different qb's in three totally different situations?
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Old 11-16-2006, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Because this nthread was started by a Giants fan that wanted to prove Eli was the best when Ben was playing at his worst.
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Old 11-16-2006, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Stats for all three so far this year:

Ben:
63.7% 2043 yards 10 td 14 int 78.1 pr

Eli:
59.4% 1972 yards 15 td 11 int 81.0 pr

Philip:
66.4% 2085 yards 13 td 3 int 100.4 pr

Ben has played in 1 less game so far this year. He doesn't need to prove anything this year and was due for a subpar year given his first two. In case anyone was wondering, through his 8 games, he has thrown 6 fewer passes than all of last season. He is not a game manager anymore, but I attribute that to a worse team playing from behind most of the season.

Eli has shown steady improvement while learning on the fly his 3 seasons. He was thrown into the fire and has done admirably well all things considered.

Philip, while having been a clipboard holder his first two seasons, has really shown he can not only manage a game, but also take them over. LT is a special player, but he didn't win that game for them on Sunday. Philip tore that defense a new one.

Bottom line is that all three are excellent QBs and we shouldn't have to tear one down to prove our point. I'll take any of them over jake delhomme!!!
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Old 11-16-2006, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Everyone says Bens a game manager... Fine

I'll take a Superbowl ring.. 29-10 record in the regular season for 3 years, with 2 AFC Championship trips.
I didn't realize Big Ben was the only player on that team. :roll:
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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Even in Ben's wost year his stats arn't that much worse than Manning's.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Lets just end this argument with Ruvers as the winner. Neither of the other 2 qb's have looked as good.

Look at rivers wr's, you probably cant even name them. Grandpa McCardell, Eric parker, and Malcolm Floyd.

The argument can be made that rivers has the supporting cast of LT and Gates but Manning has Shockey, Tiki, and Plax. Plax is better than any of the chargers recievers, Tiki has rushed for more yards than LT, and shockey isnt as productive as gates but he is still a top 5 TE. In turn you can throw the supporting cast argument out of the window.

Big ben has ben blessed with a far better coach than rivers, a dominate defense in the past 2 years, Hines ward, a very capable heath miller, good offensive schemes for Randle EL, and a great smash mouth running scheme.


Rivers wins. I live in san diego, but i am a cowboys fan. I hate rivers, all my friends want to blow him, so it hurts me to say this, but he makes unknown recievers come to life far better than ben or eli.

I give ben the edge over eli because he did "manage" his team to a SB and Eli's progression seems to have peaked.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Thats it everyone argument is over. Burns has declared Rivers the best QB out of the 3 and no one else is allowed to have another opinion. Might aswell lock the thread now since we all know Rivers is the best.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I said it before, and I'll say it again. Rivers will either prove alot of people wrong, or alot of people right this coming week.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm not expecting him to have a hard time with Denver. Ben threw for over 400 yards against them
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Thats it everyone argument is over. Burns has declared Rivers the best QB out of the 3 and no one else is allowed to have another opinion. Might aswell lock the thread now since we all know Rivers is the best.
Dude, just because big ben has been carried by a great team and has been able to win a super bowl by throwing less than 20 passes a game because he isnt a major factor is no reason to get upset. Your boy has like 14 picks. That ring on his finger isnt his, its the teams. Your defense won the superbowl, ben actually played horrific. Rivers is better bud, face the facts. Look at his recievers and what he makes them. Drew Brees had the same ability to work with those crappy recievers and got it done and he is a proven player. Brees is far better than Eli and Ben agreed? So you plop rivers into Brees' spot, with no significant changes, and he puts up better numbers than brees. What does that tell you? 9 games is a big enough sample size for me. You dont get lucky 9 weeks in a row. I hate rivers with a passion, i actually like ben alot better. My roomates consist of one steelers far and one chargers fan. I hear these argument all the time, and although i think rivers is a goof and i dont like him, hes better. and they are both better than eli, who looks like he is a deer caught in the headlights half of the time.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I'm not expecting him to have a hard time with Denver. Ben threw for over 400 yards against them
400 yards and a big W.... oh wait, no that was a big L. The only stat that matters is in the win column, Rivers owns both of them in that category.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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imagine whats going to happen to Eli after tiki leaves. Jacobs has potential but is unproven and i know for a fact he cant even touch tiki's recieving skills. Tiki really makes eli better than he is because tiki is a top 2 check down option in the league next to LT. Give it to him in the flats and let him do the rest. Im very curious to see eli's life without barber (who i consider to be a top 2 rb overall in the league)
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Ben was not carried by a good team. Watch the playoffs over again. Ben torched Cincy, Indy and Denver. Even in the superbowl when he played a bad game he made some big plays and thats what won them the superbowl. His 30 yard pass to Ward on 3rd and 23 that set up a rushing TD by Ben.

And if you are going to use the supporting cast card for Ben you have to for Rivers. Rivers has the best RB and TE in the game. PLus his recieving core is just as good as the one the Steelers have. The only area that the Stelers might have the Chagers beat is O-line but even there they have played bad this year.

Ben took this team to the superbowl. Just because he didn't have great stats in the game doesn't mean he needs to be discredited for what he did do.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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I'm not expecting him to have a hard time with Denver. Ben threw for over 400 yards against them
400 yards and a big W.... oh wait, no that was a big L. The only stat that matters is in the win column, Rivers owns both of them in that category.
This isn't about the wins. This is about who is a better QB. Ben threw for 400 yards against a Denver defense that was considered one of the best in the league. Just because 4 fumbles by recievers lost the game doesn't me that what Ben did shouldn't be counted.

Tell you what, if Rivers throws for 400 yards and they lose everyone on here will still say Rivers had a great game.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Thats it everyone argument is over. Burns has declared Rivers the best QB out of the 3 and no one else is allowed to have another opinion. Might aswell lock the thread now since we all know Rivers is the best.
Dude, just because big ben has been carried by a great team and has been able to win a super bowl by throwing less than 20 passes a game because he isnt a major factor is no reason to get upset. Your boy has like 14 picks. That ring on his finger isnt his, its the teams. Your defense won the superbowl, ben actually played horrific. Rivers is better bud, face the facts. Look at his recievers and what he makes them. Drew Brees had the same ability to work with those crappy recievers and got it done and he is a proven player. Brees is far better than Eli and Ben agreed? So you plop rivers into Brees' spot, with no significant changes, and he puts up better numbers than brees. What does that tell you? 9 games is a big enough sample size for me. You dont get lucky 9 weeks in a row. I hate rivers with a passion, i actually like ben alot better. My roomates consist of one steelers far and one chargers fan. I hear these argument all the time, and although i think rivers is a goof and i dont like him, hes better. and they are both better than eli, who looks like he is a deer caught in the headlights half of the time.
Rivers oline is better than Eli's and Ben's easily. The forgotten aspect of an offense. That line has given up less sacks than any line in the league.

And Brees went to Saints team who was considered dismal, and is having a career year. At this point in time, Brees is better than Rivers. You can't say that Rivers is better because he's doing better with the same talent. Brees didn't have 8 in the box, teams respected him too much. Rivers hasn't gotten that respect yet, but he will, and it will be interesting to see how he fares against a gameplan designed to take him out, something he has yet to see.

And again, the Bengals defense is the fantasy football elixer of every offensive player. He hasn't beaten an above 500 team yet. The one defense he did play against (Bmore), he didn't get to do much, and when he did, he didn't do too hot. So let's see some more before we crown him.
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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imagine whats going to happen to Eli after tiki leaves. Jacobs has potential but is unproven and i know for a fact he cant even touch tiki's recieving skills. Tiki really makes eli better than he is because tiki is a top 2 check down option in the league next to LT. Give it to him in the flats and let him do the rest. Im very curious to see eli's life without barber (who i consider to be a top 2 rb overall in the league)
We don't even use Tiki as a checkdown half the time. Our playbook is all f'ed up, we just send everyone deep and let it fly.

And Tiki benefits from our system alot. We run him on cutbacks, and draw plays. We set up the run with the pass, the defenses are designed to take Eli out, not Tiki. And Tiki benefits from running on nickel defenses.
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Old 11-16-2006, 04:02 PM    (permalink
Burns336
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imagine whats going to happen to Eli after tiki leaves. Jacobs has potential but is unproven and i know for a fact he cant even touch tiki's recieving skills. Tiki really makes eli better than he is because tiki is a top 2 check down option in the league next to LT. Give it to him in the flats and let him do the rest. Im very curious to see eli's life without barber (who i consider to be a top 2 rb overall in the league)
We don't even use Tiki as a checkdown half the time. Our playbook is all f'ed up, we just send everyone deep and let it fly.

And Tiki benefits from our system alot. We run him on cutbacks, and draw plays. We set up the run with the pass, the defenses are designed to take Eli out, not Tiki. And Tiki benefits from running on nickel defenses.
in most of the giants games i watch it seems as if they do. After all, isnt he only 1 of 3 rb's in the history of the league with a certain amount of rush yards and recieving yards? plus he is the giants all time leading reciever? I could be wrong because you are always very knowledgable about all teams, especially the giants, but tiki has been eli's top target has he not?

I just think teams gameplan their defense for tiki way more than they do for Eli. I feel like rivers could win even if LT rushed for under 70 yards alot easier than Eli could if tiki had an off day.
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Old 11-16-2006, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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i guess the best way to put it is this, if i was forced to swap Romo for either Eli, Ben, or Rivers, i would swap for rivers....
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Old 11-16-2006, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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i guess the best way to put it is this, if i was forced to swap Romo for either Eli, Ben, or Rivers, i would swap for rivers....
Right now you would. I bet during the playoffs last year you would have loved to have Ben.
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Old 11-16-2006, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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imagine whats going to happen to Eli after tiki leaves. Jacobs has potential but is unproven and i know for a fact he cant even touch tiki's recieving skills. Tiki really makes eli better than he is because tiki is a top 2 check down option in the league next to LT. Give it to him in the flats and let him do the rest. Im very curious to see eli's life without barber (who i consider to be a top 2 rb overall in the league)
We don't even use Tiki as a checkdown half the time. Our playbook is all f'ed up, we just send everyone deep and let it fly.

And Tiki benefits from our system alot. We run him on cutbacks, and draw plays. We set up the run with the pass, the defenses are designed to take Eli out, not Tiki. And Tiki benefits from running on nickel defenses.
in most of the giants games i watch it seems as if they do. After all, isnt he only 1 of 3 rb's in the history of the league with a certain amount of rush yards and recieving yards? plus he is the giants all time leading reciever? I could be wrong because you are always very knowledgable about all teams, especially the giants, but tiki has been eli's top target has he not?

I just think teams gameplan their defense for tiki way more than they do for Eli. I feel like rivers could win even if LT rushed for under 70 yards alot easier than Eli could if tiki had an off day.
They do throw to him alot but it isn't a check down. They use him like a reciever almost and send him on alot of routes more than just dumps and being the #3 option if the other guys are covered.
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