Jay-Z vs. Jim Jones

[ccB]

I do not hate the new jay z album.

[WMD]

Jim Jones is garbage.. Jay Z wins by default.

[AdrianWilson12]

Originally Posted by jets future

i am not into to much of old school rap well im olny 14 but i liked rap in the mid and late 90s with biggie, jay z, 2 pac, nas. i started to listen to some underground rappers but i dont think some of them cant match any where near biggie, or jay z or like nas. but underground rappers are really good lyricists

Try Immortal Technique, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, Papoose, Cormega, AZ and Sway for more recent underground guys.

Nas is the best rapper dead or alive due to his effortless flow, varied subject matter, compex rhymes, voice and long, mostly consistant career. One Mic alone is enough to love this guy, even if sometimes his hooks and production let him down and have reduced his mainstream success.

Biggie had as good a talent as any rapper and either him or AZ has the best flow IMO. He had some great songs, with good productions and hooks too. Overall he was too lazy in life and combined with a early death meant that he didn't give us enough material for him to be considered in the top 3.

Most of the Jay Z I've heard is pretty poor and the sterotypical content of his raps leave a lot to be desired. The only saving grace that I've heard is some of the clever word play he used in the early part of his career. Like many mainstream artists his production is mostly good, but that isn't down to him as much as it is to the producer.

[bigbluedefense]

I hate Immortal Technique. I hate rappers that try too hard to sound smart.

Theres a misconception with rap that good rappers have to use complex vocabulary and have alot of content in their lyrics. Thats not necessarily the case.

A great rapper comes off natural, nothing is forced, everything is smooth, and it almost sounds like he's having a conversation with you. You pick up everything he's saying in the first listen. You don't have to sound all fancy to sound good. Jay-Z put it best when he said

"Cause you don't understand him, it don't mean that he nice,
It just means you don't understand all the bull---t that he write"

And its true. Alot of the stuff that these intellectual rappers spit, is just that, bull---t. Take Ras Kass for example. In his song Interview with a Vampire, he says a bunch of incorrect ****, but he plays it off like he's all smart, when in fact, he's incorrect in most of his statements. Same goes with his song "Nature of the Threat".

That doesn't mean that all "intellectual rap" is bogus though. But most is. One Mic by Nas I felt was arguably the best written song Ive ever heard. Thats a good example of intellectual rap well executed. Canibus...he's an example of it not being executed properly. Its too forced.

A great MC is not just great at putting words together, but they must have the total package.

Flow, lyrics, wittiness, versatility, personality, rap voice. Guys like Jay-Z, Andre 3000, Biggie, Nas, they are the total package. Guys like Canibus are not. His flow is garbage, and he can only make one style of rap music.

Oh and to answer the question....Jim Jones is garbage. Jay-Z all the way.

[AdrianWilson12]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I hate Immortal Technique. I hate rappers that try too hard to sound smart.

Theres a misconception with rap that good rappers have to use complex vocabulary and have alot of content in their lyrics. Thats not necessarily the case.

A great rapper comes off natural, nothing is forced, everything is smooth, and it almost sounds like he's having a conversation with you. You pick up everything he's saying in the first listen. You don't have to sound all fancy to sound good. Jay-Z put it best when he said

"Cause you don't understand him, it don't mean that he nice,
It just means you don't understand all the bull---t that he write"

And its true. Alot of the stuff that these intellectual rappers spit, is just that, bull---t. Take Ras Kass for example. In his song Interview with a Vampire, he says a bunch of incorrect ***********, but he plays it off like he's all smart, when in fact, he's incorrect in most of his statements. Same goes with his song "Nature of the Threat".

That doesn't mean that all "intellectual rap" is bogus though. But most is. One Mic by Nas I felt was arguably the best written song Ive ever heard. Thats a good example of intellectual rap well executed. Canibus...he's an example of it not being executed properly. Its too forced.

A great MC is not just great at putting words together, but they must have the total package.

Flow, lyrics, wittiness, versatility, personality, rap voice. Guys like Jay-Z, Andre 3000, Biggie, Nas, they are the total package. Guys like Canibus are not. His flow is garbage, and he can only make one style of rap music.

Regretably, I disagree with most of which you said, but thats mainly due to fundermental differences rather than you having a poor argument. If I wasn't a big fan of the subgenre you describe as "interllectual" rap, objectively I could see where you were coming from.

For me music starts and ends with the lyrics. The hook and production contribute for about 30% of my opinion on any song. The lyrics are determined by complexity, flow and overall message. Without flow it sucks as music and should be left for poetry. Without a message the song a purpose for listening to it. Without complexity their is nothing that seperates it from other songs. I listen to music not to relax but to encage.

Immortal Technique is an excellent rapper, his interlect aside. He has natural flow, either at a fast or slow pace. He is a good battle rapper, proved by the fact he has won the majority of his freestyles. Rapping really comes naturally to him. This doesn't set him apart though, he is clearly a rapper that appeals to fans of political rap.

Rappers like 50 Cent, Jay Z and Snoop Dogg are just all the same and in not thinking about their music they are basically copying about 50 other songs with each of their tracks. I don't care how they are saying it, what they are saying is mostly boring. Flow alone shouldn't get them as far as they do. Opinions shouldn't be based on success or Media bias.

As Tech says "Going platinum has nothing to do with luck it just means a million people are stupid as...."

So amazing metaphors are bad "forced" rap.

I guess well compare that to books also and say people like Hawthorne, Shelly, Shakespear, and what not are all forcing there writing, and we should be studying Tom Clancy and Harry Potter because it reads effortlessly. I like your reasoning.

You can argue that Aesop Rock is over done forced, but Canibus and Immortal Technique? Give me a break.

[ccB]

Immortal Technique is nice. Dance with the Devil is one of my favorite Story Raps of all time.




PS I hate Aesop Rock!

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by AdrianWilson12

Regretably, I disagree with most of which you said, but thats mainly due to fundermental differences rather than you having a poor argument. If I wasn't a big fan of the subgenre you describe as "interllectual" rap, objectively I could see where you were coming from.

For me music starts and ends with the lyrics. The hook and production contribute for about 30% of my opinion on any song. The lyrics are determined by complexity, flow and overall message. Without flow it sucks as music and should be left for poetry. Without a message the song a purpose for listening to it. Without complexity their is nothing that seperates it from other songs. I listen to music not to relax but to encage.

Immortal Technique is an excellent rapper, his interlect aside. He has natural flow, either at a fast or slow pace. He is a good battle rapper, proved by the fact he has won the majority of his freestyles. Rapping really comes naturally to him. This doesn't set him apart though, he is clearly a rapper that appeals to fans of political rap.

Rappers like 50 Cent, Jay Z and Snoop Dogg are just all the same and in not thinking about their music they are basically copying about 50 other songs with each of their tracks. I don't care how they are saying it, what they are saying is mostly boring. Flow alone shouldn't get them as far as they do. Opinions shouldn't be based on success or Media bias.

As Tech says "Going platinum has nothing to do with luck it just means a million people are stupid as...."

I don't want to sound like Im a commercial follower, because honestly Im not. I listen to Cunninlynguists, Joe Budden, Royce 5 9, Raekwon (who's surprisingly underground nowadays) etc. Its just that, to me, it has to sound good moreso than convey a message.

Making a point in a rap is fine, as long as it comes naturally. If its forced, then it lacks influence because its like youre trying too hard. Thats the impression I get. Sometimes we take music too seriously. Its music, not a history class. If your whole album is the same type of politically based song, then its not a good album. It lacks variety, and can get redundant. I don't want it to be lovey dovey either, Im just saying sometimes you gotta switch the flow up, and alot of underground rappers sometimes fail to get that point.

I love Cunninlynguists, but even them, sometimes they go too far trying to make it sound underground instead of just letting the music take its course. Its hard to explain.

[ccB]

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

I don't want to sound like Im a commercial follower, because honestly Im not. I listen to Cunninlynguists, Joe Budden, [img]Royce 5 9[/img], Raekwon (who's surprisingly underground nowadays) etc. Its just that, to me, it has to sound good moreso than convey a message.

Making a point in a rap is fine, as long as it comes naturally. If its forced, then it lacks influence because its like youre trying too hard. Thats the impression I get. Sometimes we take music too seriously. Its music, not a history class. If your whole album is the same type of politically based song, then its not a good album. It lacks variety, and can get redundant. I don't want it to be lovey dovey either, Im just saying sometimes you gotta switch the flow up, and alot of underground rappers sometimes fail to get that point.

I love Cunninlynguists, but even them, sometimes they go too far trying to make it sound underground instead of just letting the music take its course. Its hard to explain.

I love Royce, Ive been trying to get snuff to listen to him for a while. Joe BUdden is severly underrated too.

How can you not want a history and then like Cunninlynguists? Nearly 1/2 of there music is laced with historical references of the bible and other stuff.. Not to mention there best song ever written, Seasons, is a huge metaphor, but you probably don't like it because its forced.

If you don't want to listen to music for a meaning stick to the good all Paul Wall, Mike Jones, and othere good mainstream rappers.

Originally Posted by jets future

Jay z >>>> rakim& nas

When it comes to legacy? Yes.

Lyrically? Hell no.


Nas and Rakim are the greatest lyricists to ever breathe.

[jets future]

Originally Posted by snuff

How can you not want a history and then like Cunninlynguists? Nearly 1/2 of there music is laced with historical references of the bible and other stuff.. Not to mention there best song ever written, Seasons, is a huge metaphor, but you probably don't like it because its forced.

If you don't want to listen to music for a meaning stick to the good all Paul Wall, Mike Jones, and othere good mainstream rappers.

are u serious? paul wall is terrible rapper he is another vanilla ice. and mike jones wtf. thoses are very good sugestions. :roll:
50 cent is a better rapper than paul wall . and 50 cent comes out with much better music than paul wall or mike jones

Originally Posted by jets future

are u serious? paul wall is terrible rapper he is another vanilla ice. and mike jones wtf. thoses are very good sugestions. :roll:
50 cent is a better rapper than paul wall . and 50 cent comes out with much better music than paul wall or mike jones

Someone can't detect sarcasm.

[jets future]

Originally Posted by WhisperSeek

When it comes to legacy? Yes.

Lyrically? Hell no.


Nas and Rakim are the greatest lyricists to ever breathe.

jay z all ways comes out with awsome music, and he is the most consistent rappers ever, thats what tops him off rakim and nas.yeah rakim and nas are better lyrically but who is more consistent

[jets future]

Originally Posted by snuff

Someone can't detect sarcasm.

well its hard to detect sarcasm through a computer,

Originally Posted by jets future

jay z all ways comes out with awsome music, and he is the most consistent rappers ever, thats what tops him off rakim and nas.yeah rakim and nas are better lyrically but who is more consistent

I don't know about that. I mean Jay-z has really dropped off since Reasonable doubt. On the other hand G-unit has been consistently bad, so I think they are the best.

[jets future]

Originally Posted by snuff

I don't know about that. I mean Jay-z has really dropped off since Reasonable doubt. On the other hand G-unit has been consistently bad, so I think they are the best.

well before 2007 you wont be able to say that g-unit ihas been consistenly bad, cus bucks comin out with a new album, scrappy, hot rod, banks, and 50 is coming out with a new albumn in 07.
i heard scrappy and lloyds albumn and there pretty hot

[draftguru151]

Immortal Technique and Sage Francis are the only rappers I listen to. I really hate mainstream rap, all I want is someone who raps about stuff that makes sense and has a good beat. Positive Balance is probably my favorite song by Immortal Technique

Originally Posted by jets future

well before 2007 you wont be able to say that g-unit ihas been consistenly bad, cus bucks comin out with a new album, scrappy, hot rod, banks, and 50 is coming out with a new albumn in 07.
i heard scrappy and lloyds albumn and there pretty hot

Oh they're releasing albums, that makes them good rappers. :roll:

[duckseason]

Originally Posted by draftguru151

Immortal Technique and Sage Francis are the only rappers I listen to. I really hate mainstream rap, all I want is someone who raps about stuff that makes sense and has a good beat. Positive Balance is probably my favorite song by Immortal Technique

Bum with a banjo >>> Mainstream rap

[jets future]

Originally Posted by cardsalltheway

Oh they're releasing albums, that makes them good rappers. :roll:

wait and see

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by snuff

How can you not want a history and then like Cunninlynguists? Nearly 1/2 of there music is laced with historical references of the bible and other stuff.. Not to mention there best song ever written, Seasons, is a huge metaphor, but you probably don't like it because its forced.

If you don't want to listen to music for a meaning stick to the good all Paul Wall, Mike Jones, and othere good mainstream rappers.

But its not forced. They do it naturally, it just flows with what theyre trying to accomplish. And theyre versatile. Not all their songs are like that. Listen to "A Piece of Strange". Its hard to explain, but some rappers try to sound intellectual and force it, to others it comes naturally.

[jets future]

why does mostly every body on this board doesent like mainstream rap, i v never met this many people that like underground rap than mainstream rap

[bigbluedefense]

Originally Posted by jets future

why does mostly every body on this board doesent like mainstream rap, i v never met this many people that like underground rap than mainstream rap

How can you like mainstream rap when "Chain Hang Low" is in the top 10? Seriously...how did that dude even get a record deal?

Originally Posted by bigbluedefense

But its not forced. They do it naturally, it just flows with what theyre trying to accomplish. And theyre versatile. Not all their songs are like that. Listen to "A Piece of Strange". Its hard to explain, but some rappers try to sound intellectual and force it, to others it comes naturally.

How can you say they force it? Because there flow isn't amazing? So if someone has a good flow and they take 3 years to write a verse they are good, because it doesn't sound forced?

I don't know how it seems forced either. Unless angry = forced.