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Old 07-24-2007, 09:06 PM    (permalink
Dam8610
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Default Who would you take out of the Hall of Fame?

Inspired by the "Who is your Shocking Hall of Fame Pick?" thread, this thread instead allows you to (in your own hypothetical world of course) remove one player you think is entirely undeserving of the honor of being enshrined in Canton, but has already been enshrined.

My pick: Joe Namath. He's in for one reason, and one reason alone: "The Guarantee". If the Jets lose that game, Namath never even sniffs Canton, and I don't believe that one moment of greatness should outshine an entire career of mediocrity.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Gayle Sayers

I know this may be a questionable pick. I have my reasons though. Sayers was unquestionably a great player, but there have been many great players (particularly RB's) that have not been admitted into The Hall for various reasons. The reason Sayers should not be in The Hall is because he simply did not have a long enough career and was injured far too often. Explain to me why Sayers is in The Hall while Terrell Davis is not. Roll the stats please.

Sayers............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
Year Team ....Games ..No..... Yds.... Avg.... TD .....No.... Yds.... Avg... TD
1965 Chicago ...14 ....166 .....867 ....5.2 ....14 ...... 29 ....507 ....17.5 ...6
1966 Chicago ...14 ....229 ....1231 ...5.4 .....8 ........34 ....447 ....13.1 ...2
1967 Chicago ...13 ....186 .....880 ....4.7 .....7........ 16 ....126 ....7.9 ....1
1968 Chicago ....9 ....138 .....856 .....6.2 .....2 ...... 15 ....117 .....7.8 ....0
1969 Chicago ...14 ....236 ....1032 ....4.4 ....8 ........17 ....116 .....6.8 ...0
1970 Chicago ....2 .....23 .......52 .....2.3 .....0 ........1 .....-6 ......-6 .....0
1971 Chicago ....2 .....13 .......38 .....2.9 .....0 ....... 0 ......0 ......-- ......0
Career ..........68 .....991 ...4956 ....5 .......39 .....112 ...1307 ....11.7... 9

Davis............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
1995 Denver ....14 ....237 ....1,117 ...4.7..... 7 .......49 ....367..... 7.5..... 1
1996 Denver ....16.... 345 ....1,538 ...4.5.... 13....... 36... 310 .....8.6 .....2
1997 Denver ....15 ....369 ....1,750... 4.7 ....15 ......42 ....287..... 6.8 .....0
1998 Denver ....16.... 392.... 2,008 ...5.1 ....21 ......25.... 217 .....8.7 .....2
1999 Denver .....4...... 67 .....211 .....3.1.... 2 .........3 .....26 ......8.7.... 0
2000 Denver .....5 ......78 .....282..... 3.6 ....2 ........2 ......4 ........2.0.... 0
2001 Denver ....11 ....167 .....701 .....4.2 ....0 .......12 .....69 ......5.8 .....0
Career ............81 ...1655.... 7607.... 4.6 ...60 ......169....1280.... 7.6 ....5

Davis- 7607 career rushing yards, 8887 total yards
Sayers- 4956 career rushing yards, 6263 total yards

Davis has played in more career games, Davis played in 72.3% of his teams games compared to Gayers playing in 69.4% of his teams games, 21 more rushing TDs, as well as more receptions.

I would have no problem with Sayers being in The Hall if Davis were in as well, but Sayers being in and Davis not being in shows an astonishing lack of consistency in the requirements to be in The Hall. The main problem is that sports writers are the only people who vote on it, Hello large media market biases. Besides that though, it needs to be determined whether The Hall requires being very good over a long period of time, amazing over a short period, or both, because having a little bit of each leaves many players being left out who have the same, if not better stats than others that are in.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Art Monk:
224 career games
940 receptions (tied for 6th in NFL history)
12,721 receiving yards (11th in NFL history)
68 touchdowns
Three Pro Bowls
Five 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (injured in his third) (zero touchdowns)


Class act of the league, not flashy, simple and humble.

Michael Irvin:
159 career games
750 receptions (tied for 20th in NFL history)
11,904 receiving yards (14th in NFL history)
65 touchdowns
Five Pro Bowls
Seven 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (two touchdowns)

Showoff, crackhead, lower stats.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinzzfan25 View Post
Art Monk:
224 career games
940 receptions (tied for 6th in NFL history)
12,721 receiving yards (11th in NFL history)
68 touchdowns
Three Pro Bowls
Five 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (injured in his third) (zero touchdowns)


Class act of the league, not flashy, simple and humble.

Michael Irvin:
159 career games
750 receptions (tied for 20th in NFL history)
11,904 receiving yards (14th in NFL history)
65 touchdowns
Five Pro Bowls
Seven 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (two touchdowns)

Showoff, crackhead, lower stats.
Thank you!
Ive been wanting it to happen for 3 years now, but then the comitee put in Irvin
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skinzzfan25 View Post
Art Monk:
224 career games
940 receptions (tied for 6th in NFL history)
12,721 receiving yards (11th in NFL history)
68 touchdowns
Three Pro Bowls
Five 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (injured in his third) (zero touchdowns)


Class act of the league, not flashy, simple and humble.

Michael Irvin:
159 career games
750 receptions (tied for 20th in NFL history)
11,904 receiving yards (14th in NFL history)
65 touchdowns
Five Pro Bowls
Seven 1,000-yard seasons
Three Super Bowl victories (two touchdowns)

Showoff, crackhead, lower stats.
Those stats only reinforces that Irvin belongs in. He played sixty five fewer games, yet had almost as many yards and touchdowns, more pro bowls, more 1,000 yard seasons. Dominance > Longevity for the most part, in Hall of Fame discussions. That doesn't mean that one should be in, and Monk be out, but Irvin deserves it.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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Thank you!
Ive been wanting it to happen for 3 years now, but then the comitee put in Irvin
Chris Carter will get in before him too, rightfully so, he has better stats. They waited too long on Monk and now with these high powered offenses of the modern day, he's gonna have to wait till he's on that list of way old people to get in.

It's a shame :\
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Those stats only reinforces that Irvin belongs over Monk. He played sixty five fewer games, yet had almost as many yards and touchdowns, more pro bowls, more 1,000 yard seasons.

Dominance > Longevity for the most part, in Hall of Fame discussions.
But Irvin played with Aikman, Monk played with Theisman, Schroeder, Williams, and Rypien

Plus he sets a bad image
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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I personally think that both should be in.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:32 AM    (permalink
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Ok I have to ask this question. If Terrell Owens wins 1-2 superbowls before he retires does he make the Hall of Fame? He brought teams like the 49ers and Eagles to the superbowl and playoffs also put up extreme numbers. I'm asking this because of Michael Irvin making it into the Hall of Fame.
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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I personally think that both should be in.
I agree with that, but Art shouldve been in first
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nfrillman View Post
Gayle Sayers

I know this may be a questionable pick.
Now there's an understatement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Those stats only reinforces that Irvin belongs in. He played sixty five fewer games, yet had almost as many yards and touchdowns, more pro bowls, more 1,000 yard seasons. Dominance > Longevity for the most part, in Hall of Fame discussions. That doesn't mean that one should be in, and Monk be out, but Irvin deserves it.
Plus Irvin was the emotional driving force of the Cowboys dynasty, relative to the players.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:52 AM    (permalink
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Ok I have to ask this question. If Terrell Owens wins 1-2 superbowls before he retires does he make the Hall of Fame? He brought teams like the 49ers and Eagles to the superbowl and playoffs also put up extreme numbers. I'm asking this because of Michael Irvin making it into the Hall of Fame.
Based purely off of stats I would say he is a Hall of Famer right now, but I am pretty sure that stats are not the only thing the voters are told to consider. That is where Owens may come across some problems.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:02 AM    (permalink
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I have a real problem with the duo of Stallworth/Swann being in the Hall.

They were both drafted in 74 and operated as a duo for 9 seasons on the greatest Championship side in the 70's.

As a duo they had a combined for 635 catches for 10766 yards and 95 TD's from 1974 - 1982 in 224 games.

Monk/Clark in comparison over 8 seasons had 1090 catches 16114 yards and 99 TD's from 1985-1992 in 243 games.

If Monk/Clark were in I would have no problem with the Steeler duo being in simply because of their Superbowl exploits which is effectively the case.

BTW Michael Irvin thoroughly deserves too be in the Hall, he was amazing. I hate him but he deserved too get in. Not ahead of Monk but definately in.

Interesting stat lines

Clark 167 games 699 Receptions 10856 yards 65TD's 2 Rings
Irvin 159 games 750 Receptions 11904 yards 65TD's 3 Rings

If Gary Clark does not play in the USFL in 1984 he would be right up there with Michael Irvin
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Old 07-25-2007, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I personally think that both should be in.
I agree that both should eventually be in also, just realistically speaking last year was Monks last year. Now he's going to have to go up against the Chris Carters and Jerry Rices, plus the modern day receivers like Harrison and others. Due to more powerful and pass happy offenses, Monk can't compete with their stats.

The people that vote players into the hall is the media. Monk was a douche to the media, and liked to keep matters within the organization. Irvin, was flamboyant and was a personality to the media during his playing days. Then later, he joined the media. Being that close to the media had to have helped Irvin a little...
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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I think Al Davis deserved to be in for his past success with the Raiders in the 70s, but should be taken out for what he has done with the Raiders recently and for giving Art Shell a coaching job...twice.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Gayle Sayers

I know this may be a questionable pick. I have my reasons though. Sayers was unquestionably a great player, but there have been many great players (particularly RB's) that have not been admitted into The Hall for various reasons. The reason Sayers should not be in The Hall is because he simply did not have a long enough career and was injured far too often. Explain to me why Sayers is in The Hall while Terrell Davis is not. Roll the stats please.

Sayers............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
Year Team ....Games ..No..... Yds.... Avg.... TD .....No.... Yds.... Avg... TD
1965 Chicago ...14 ....166 .....867 ....5.2 ....14 ...... 29 ....507 ....17.5 ...6
1966 Chicago ...14 ....229 ....1231 ...5.4 .....8 ........34 ....447 ....13.1 ...2
1967 Chicago ...13 ....186 .....880 ....4.7 .....7........ 16 ....126 ....7.9 ....1
1968 Chicago ....9 ....138 .....856 .....6.2 .....2 ...... 15 ....117 .....7.8 ....0
1969 Chicago ...14 ....236 ....1032 ....4.4 ....8 ........17 ....116 .....6.8 ...0
1970 Chicago ....2 .....23 .......52 .....2.3 .....0 ........1 .....-6 ......-6 .....0
1971 Chicago ....2 .....13 .......38 .....2.9 .....0 ....... 0 ......0 ......-- ......0
Career ..........68 .....991 ...4956 ....5 .......39 .....112 ...1307 ....11.7... 9

Davis............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
1995 Denver ....14 ....237 ....1,117 ...4.7..... 7 .......49 ....367..... 7.5..... 1
1996 Denver ....16.... 345 ....1,538 ...4.5.... 13....... 36... 310 .....8.6 .....2
1997 Denver ....15 ....369 ....1,750... 4.7 ....15 ......42 ....287..... 6.8 .....0
1998 Denver ....16.... 392.... 2,008 ...5.1 ....21 ......25.... 217 .....8.7 .....2
1999 Denver .....4...... 67 .....211 .....3.1.... 2 .........3 .....26 ......8.7.... 0
2000 Denver .....5 ......78 .....282..... 3.6 ....2 ........2 ......4 ........2.0.... 0
2001 Denver ....11 ....167 .....701 .....4.2 ....0 .......12 .....69 ......5.8 .....0
Career ............81 ...1655.... 7607.... 4.6 ...60 ......169....1280.... 7.6 ....5

Davis- 7607 career rushing yards, 8887 total yards
Sayers- 4956 career rushing yards, 6263 total yards

Davis has played in more career games, Davis played in 72.3% of his teams games compared to Gayers playing in 69.4% of his teams games, 21 more rushing TDs, as well as more receptions.

I would have no problem with Sayers being in The Hall if Davis were in as well, but Sayers being in and Davis not being in shows an astonishing lack of consistency in the requirements to be in The Hall. The main problem is that sports writers are the only people who vote on it, Hello large media market biases. Besides that though, it needs to be determined whether The Hall requires being very good over a long period of time, amazing over a short period, or both, because having a little bit of each leaves many players being left out who have the same, if not better stats than others that are in.
Gale Sayers was one of the best talents the league had seen, Mario Lemieux the greatest hockey player of all time faced many injuries, that dosent take away from what he did on the ice just as you cant take away what Sayers did.
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Old 07-25-2007, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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I have a real problem with the duo of Stallworth/Swann being in the Hall.

They were both drafted in 74 and operated as a duo for 9 seasons on the greatest Championship side in the 70's.

As a duo they had a combined for 635 catches for 10766 yards and 95 TD's from 1974 - 1982 in 224 games.

Monk/Clark in comparison over 8 seasons had 1090 catches 16114 yards and 99 TD's from 1985-1992 in 243 games.

If Monk/Clark were in I would have no problem with the Steeler duo being in simply because of their Superbowl exploits which is effectively the case.

BTW Michael Irvin thoroughly deserves too be in the Hall, he was amazing. I hate him but he deserved too get in. Not ahead of Monk but definately in.

Interesting stat lines

Clark 167 games 699 Receptions 10856 yards 65TD's 2 Rings
Irvin 159 games 750 Receptions 11904 yards 65TD's 3 Rings

If Gary Clark does not play in the USFL in 1984 he would be right up there with Michael Irvin

The NFL wasn't primarily a passing game, or didn't use it near as much until halfway through Stallworth/Swann's career. They put those #'s up Pre-pass happy NFL.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Ok I have to ask this question. If Terrell Owens wins 1-2 superbowls before he retires does he make the Hall of Fame? He brought teams like the 49ers and Eagles to the superbowl and playoffs also put up extreme numbers. I'm asking this because of Michael Irvin making it into the Hall of Fame.
TO winning a Superbowl would make him a lock however I dont think he needs to, hes been on an elite level for so long.
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Gayle Sayers

I know this may be a questionable pick. I have my reasons though. Sayers was unquestionably a great player, but there have been many great players (particularly RB's) that have not been admitted into The Hall for various reasons. The reason Sayers should not be in The Hall is because he simply did not have a long enough career and was injured far too often. Explain to me why Sayers is in The Hall while Terrell Davis is not. Roll the stats please.

Sayers............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
Year Team ....Games ..No..... Yds.... Avg.... TD .....No.... Yds.... Avg... TD
1965 Chicago ...14 ....166 .....867 ....5.2 ....14 ...... 29 ....507 ....17.5 ...6
1966 Chicago ...14 ....229 ....1231 ...5.4 .....8 ........34 ....447 ....13.1 ...2
1967 Chicago ...13 ....186 .....880 ....4.7 .....7........ 16 ....126 ....7.9 ....1
1968 Chicago ....9 ....138 .....856 .....6.2 .....2 ...... 15 ....117 .....7.8 ....0
1969 Chicago ...14 ....236 ....1032 ....4.4 ....8 ........17 ....116 .....6.8 ...0
1970 Chicago ....2 .....23 .......52 .....2.3 .....0 ........1 .....-6 ......-6 .....0
1971 Chicago ....2 .....13 .......38 .....2.9 .....0 ....... 0 ......0 ......-- ......0
Career ..........68 .....991 ...4956 ....5 .......39 .....112 ...1307 ....11.7... 9

Davis............................... Rushing .............................Receiving
1995 Denver ....14 ....237 ....1,117 ...4.7..... 7 .......49 ....367..... 7.5..... 1
1996 Denver ....16.... 345 ....1,538 ...4.5.... 13....... 36... 310 .....8.6 .....2
1997 Denver ....15 ....369 ....1,750... 4.7 ....15 ......42 ....287..... 6.8 .....0
1998 Denver ....16.... 392.... 2,008 ...5.1 ....21 ......25.... 217 .....8.7 .....2
1999 Denver .....4...... 67 .....211 .....3.1.... 2 .........3 .....26 ......8.7.... 0
2000 Denver .....5 ......78 .....282..... 3.6 ....2 ........2 ......4 ........2.0.... 0
2001 Denver ....11 ....167 .....701 .....4.2 ....0 .......12 .....69 ......5.8 .....0
Career ............81 ...1655.... 7607.... 4.6 ...60 ......169....1280.... 7.6 ....5

Davis- 7607 career rushing yards, 8887 total yards
Sayers- 4956 career rushing yards, 6263 total yards

Davis has played in more career games, Davis played in 72.3% of his teams games compared to Gayers playing in 69.4% of his teams games, 21 more rushing TDs, as well as more receptions.

I would have no problem with Sayers being in The Hall if Davis were in as well, but Sayers being in and Davis not being in shows an astonishing lack of consistency in the requirements to be in The Hall. The main problem is that sports writers are the only people who vote on it, Hello large media market biases. Besides that though, it needs to be determined whether The Hall requires being very good over a long period of time, amazing over a short period, or both, because having a little bit of each leaves many players being left out who have the same, if not better stats than others that are in.
Obviously you are not a student of the game. Gale Sayers may not have had a long career, but for what he did in his brief career was nothing short of outstanding. In his day he was the Barry Sanders or Reggie Bush of his time and at those times his exploits were unheard of my any man regardless of color. His impact on the game was astronomical and his numbers got him in and rightfully so.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 07-26-2007, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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The NFL wasn't primarily a passing game, or didn't use it near as much until halfway through Stallworth/Swann's career. They put those #'s up Pre-pass happy NFL.
So did Charlie Joiner, Charley Taylor, Fred Biletnikoff and a whole host of others that put real perspective on where these guys belong.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Obviously you are not a student of the game. Gale Sayers may not have had a long career, but for what he did in his brief career was nothing short of outstanding. In his day he was the Barry Sanders or Reggie Bush of his time and at those times his exploits were unheard of my any man regardless of color. His impact on the game was astronomical and his numbers got him in and rightfully so.
I know his exploits were amazing, but you cannot tell me that Terrell Davis' short career was nothing short of outstanding. I am basing this mostly on the fact I want a level of consistency in the rulings of The Hall. One player that dominated over a short stretch should not be allowed in if another player who also dominated over a short stretch is left out. If we are going to start talking about their impact on the game then I can see the argument, but from a statistical standpoint, he should not be in if Davis is not in.

As for the previous mention of Mario Lemiuex, that is a pretty weak comparison. Sure he had injury issues and obviously the Hodjkins thing, but he is still widely considered as one of the top 5 players of all time, top 10 in goals, top 10 in assists, top 10 in points, 2nd all time in points per game, and 2nd all time in goals per game. Those are statistical achievements that Sayers cannot come close to comparing to.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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How do these Hall of Fame Threads alway end up with Skins fans complaining about the Monk vs. Irvin thing? Yes I agree Monk deserves to be in the HOF, but to use that to invalidate Irvin's induction is unfair. What does it have to do with anything? Two different careers and two different decades. And I don't feel the need to validate Irvin's place in the HOF, as I see it as pointless. But I will say if Irvin wasn't with us, I doubt the Boy's would have been as successful as they were in that dynasty era. He had the stats and TD's, but most importantly he had the voice. He was the leader and heart. Not Jimmy, Emmitt or Troy, It was Michael.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:28 AM    (permalink
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How do these Hall of Fame Threads alway end up with Skins fans complaining about the Monk vs. Irvin thing? Yes I agree Monk deserves to be in the HOF, but to use that to invalidate Irvin's induction is unfair. What does it have to do with anything? Two different careers and two different decades. And I don't feel the need to validate Irvin's place in the HOF, as I see it as pointless. But I will say if Irvin wasn't with us, I doubt the Boy's would have been as successful as they were in that dynasty era. He had the stats and TD's, but most importantly he had the voice. He was the leader and heart. Not Jimmy, Emmitt or Troy, It was Michael.

I am a Redskins fan and agree that Irvin deserves too be in and this should not degenerate into the argument it always does.

I think it grates us because there is supposed too be a natural order of things in the process.

Every single receiver who broke the career record went into the Hall without fail. Others who were great in one aspect have gone in (Lofton for instance).
Stallworth/Swann are another example in basically for what they did in the Bowls, you cannot tell me their impact on the game was greater than that of Bob Hayes. Or that they were better than Harold Carmichael and Stanley Morgan as receivers.

You know in 1992 when Monk broke the record he was one of only 2 players in the whole history of the NFL with 800 plus catches. Now there are 17 (14 of whom played the entire 90's or beyond.

There were just 8 players with 10000 plus receiving yards, now it stands at 27 players.

Monk was faster to 500, 600, 700 and 800 receptions than every player in the Hall of Fame.

The danger is that he will be forgotten. It is now 11 years since he retired and the passing game of the 90's and 00's dilutes what the players of the 80's did.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:57 AM    (permalink
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Old 07-28-2007, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I don't think Monk or Irvin deserve to be in.

But I digress....honestly I would take out a lot of players, but I'm more stringent than most. Of the 5 inductees, the only one I agree with is Thurman Thomas. This is one of the weakest classes I would ever see.

As for the Gayle Sayers argument, as a Bears fan, I don't totally disagree with you. I think he gets in based on overwhelming ability as opposed to career stats, but I understand what you're saying.
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