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Old 07-31-2007, 02:19 PM    (permalink
Hines
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i think jerome should be in it because i mean he is a top 5 rusher of all time and he does have a ring and thats a main factor for it...just like i believe cowher will be in when he retires for good
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Old 08-03-2007, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Some food for thought...

John from Jacksonville: You often mention that postseason play is one of your criteria for entry to the Hall of Fame. Is the postseason even more important for a coach?
Vic: It’s important. I don’t care if it’s for players or coaches, postseason performance, in my opinion, is a major measuring stick for evaluating players’ and coaches’ careers. There are exceptions, of course. Some guys play their whole careers for bad teams and don’t see much postseason action. Barry Sanders kind of fits into that category. For the guys who have played a lot of postseason games, however, I judge them in a big way on what they’ve done in the postseason. Take a guy who’s played the equivalent or near equivalent of a whole season in the postseason. Now compare his stats from the postseason to his regular seasons. I’ll use two guys – Michael Irvin and Lynn Swann – as examples, but there are a lot more of them I could use. Irvin’s and Swann’s postseasons are as good as their best regular seasons. In other words, when the light was shining brightest, the games were the biggest and the competition was the toughest, they played at their highest level. That, in my opinion, is a Hall of Famer. The same goes for coaches.


http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6183
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Old 08-03-2007, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Ewing View Post
Is that why his jersey number is retired for every team and they bypassed the three year waiting period to induct him in the Hall Of Fame? Oh yeah, that's Wayne Gretzky, the guy who won eight straight MVP's and retired holding 61 different records.
Man of Steel, your rebuttal please.

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Old 08-05-2007, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Dr Z says Doak Walker is the weakest Hall of Famer so I decided to look up his HOF profile. Walker never rushed for more the 400 yards in a season.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=223

Six seasons, only 1,520 yards rushing, 2,539 receiving and was 49-87 in FGs. Walker also punted and played DB. He was a jack of all trades, master of none.
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Dr Z says Doak Walker is the weakest Hall of Famer so I decided to look up his HOF profile. Walker never rushed for more the 400 yards in a season.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=223

Six seasons, only 1,520 yards rushing, 2,539 receiving and was 49-87 in FGs. Walker also punted and played DB. He was a jack of all trades, master of none.
And QB, and he basically was the reason DET, was good back in the 50's
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Dr Z says Doak Walker is the weakest Hall of Famer so I decided to look up his HOF profile. Walker never rushed for more the 400 yards in a season.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=223

Six seasons, only 1,520 yards rushing, 2,539 receiving and was 49-87 in FGs. Walker also punted and played DB. He was a jack of all trades, master of none.
Doak actually made the Detroit Lions winners and more importantly champions. That alone qualifies you as a Hall of Famer. :D
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-05-2007, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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You know what? That's a good idea. Canton should open the new Hall of Infamy, as an extension of the Hall of Fame.
Ryan Leaf
Tony Mandarich
Keyshawn Johnson
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Leaf
Tony Mandarich
Keyshawn Johnson
Why Keyshawn? He had a very good career.
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Why Keyshawn? He had a very good career.
People just love to hate on Keyshawn. Besides if what would the criteria be for this Hall of Infamy? If its off field incidents, then Michael Irvin and Lawrence Taylor would certainly be in it.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-05-2007, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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i know this is probably a major reach here, but what about Amani Toomer? im not saying this out of homerism but compare his stats with some other WR's in the HOF, and he's not that far off, plus he's got at least 1 more year to add to those stats. granted he doesnt have the rings, but his stats are right up there with Swann. I know he wont get in, just want your thoughts
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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i know this is probably a major reach here, but what about Amani Toomer? im not saying this out of homerism but compare his stats with some other WR's in the HOF, and he's not that far off, plus he's got at least 1 more year to add to those stats. granted he doesnt have the rings, but his stats are right up there with Swann. I know he wont get in, just want your thoughts
Toomer is a definite no, without question. He's been a quality receiver over the years but he's never been anything special. He's never dominated the game or been considered a top receiver. He's been in the league 11 years and only has 5 1,000 yard seasons and has never had double digit touchdowns. Toomer is a good receiver but not a Hall of Famer.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Toomer is a definite no, without question. He's been a quality receiver over the years but he's never been anything special. He's never dominated the game or been considered a top receiver. He's been in the league 11 years and only has 5 1,000 yard seasons and has never had double digit touchdowns. Toomer is a good receiver but not a Hall of Famer.
thats what i thought, but dang, if he had QB's other than Dave Brown, Danny Kannel and Kerry Collins for the earlier parts of his career, he could've had a shot... :(
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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thats what i thought, but dang, if he had QB's other than Dave Brown, Danny Kannel and Kerry Collins for the earlier parts of his career, he could've had a shot... :(
Actually he wouldn't have had a shot considering his best years were with Kerry Collins as the QB. Again he's a good receiver, a gamer, possession guy, not afraid to go across the middle, but not a Hall of Famer.
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Originally Posted by Job View Post
On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
Quote:
Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Actually he wouldn't have had a shot considering his best years were with Kerry Collins as the QB. Again he's a good receiver, a gamer, possession guy, not afraid to go across the middle, but not a Hall of Famer.
he'd be in the Hall of very good like so many other players haha

and the only reason he was good during the KC era was he was in his prime.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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i know this is probably a major reach here, but what about Amani Toomer? im not saying this out of homerism but compare his stats with some other WR's in the HOF, and he's not that far off, plus he's got at least 1 more year to add to those stats. granted he doesnt have the rings, but his stats are right up there with Swann. I know he wont get in, just want your thoughts
People don't think Ward should be in but he's way outdone both Swann and Stallworth.

I think he's a borderline. The thing going for Hines is he has about 3-4 years left and a Superbowl Ring/MVP with him.
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Lynn Swann is the possibly the most rawly talented receiver of all-time. He's the wide reciever version of Gale Sayers. A reason he didn't put up incredible numbers is because he had Franco Harris in the backfield and Stallworth beside him. Had Swann been the sole target on a team he would have broken a ton of records. He gets in on talent and clutch plays alone.
So you are saying that because Swann had Harris and Stallworth, they took plays away from him. You make an argument for Swann that is given no truck by those who vote against Monk. In fact this argument is used against Monk.

OK Art Monk, played with Riggins, Rogers, Byner and a host of others in probably the strongest power running team of the 80's. He also played alongside Charlie Brown, Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders (at the same time) and still had 888 receptions for 12026 yards and 65 TD's as a Redskin.

He also sits 7th on the all time post season receiving list. He played with skill players at all positions and still recorded those stats. Not to mention he also broke the season and career records in his career, as well as the consecutive games with a reception record
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Old 08-05-2007, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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So you are saying that because Swann had Harris and Stallworth, they took plays away from him. You make an argument for Swann that is given no truck by those who vote against Monk. In fact this argument is used against Monk.

OK Art Monk, played with Riggins, Rogers, Byner and a host of others in probably the strongest power running team of the 80's. He also played alongside Charlie Brown, Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders (at the same time) and still had 888 receptions for 12026 yards and 65 TD's as a Redskin.

He also sits 7th on the all time post season receiving list. He played with skill players at all positions and still recorded those stats. Not to mention he also broke the season and career records in his career, as well as the consecutive games with a reception record
Swann played half of his career before the NFL made major rule changes that insisted on a more pass oriented offense.
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Old 08-05-2007, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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(I guess this is our Hall of Fame thread, so I'll post this here.)

Rick Gosselin, in his recent "From the 50" column/newsletter, wrote an excellent piece on the lack of defensive players in the Hall of Fame:

Quote:
Hall of Fame needs more 'D'
12:08 PM CDT on Tuesday, July 31, 2007

Defense may win championships, but it doesn't win much support for the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I'll be in Canton this weekend for the enshrinement of the Class of 2007: wide receiver Michael Irvin, running back Thurman Thomas, tight end Charlie Sanders, offensive linemen Gene Hickerson and Bruce Matthews and cornerback Roger Wehrli.

But forget the names and focus on the numbers. That's five offensive players, one defensive player.

There are now 249 members of the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Thirty-eight of them are coaches, owners and administrators. Another 47 came from the game's early era players from the 1920s, '30s and '40s.

That leaves 164 players from the game's modern era. One hundred five of them are offensive players: centers, guards, tackles, tight ends, wide receivers, running backs and quarterbacks. There's also one kicker, Jan Stenerud, who was another offensive point producer.

That means only 58 defenders from the modern era are enshrined in Canton. That represents only 35.3 percent of the 164 modern-era inductees. Offensive players represent 64 percent of the modern-era Cantonites.

What's wrong with that picture?

Fifty percent of football is supposed to be defense. It's an even greater percentage of championship football. Thirty-five of the 41 Super Bowl champions ranked in the top 10 in defense. Only 33 of them ranked in the top 10 in offense.

Yet defensive players continue to be bypassed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

I'm a member of the Hall of Fame selection committee. In the last four years, we've enshrined five quarterbacks who played in the 1990s. Wehrli is the first cornerback we've enshrined since 1997 and the last time he set foot on an NFL field was 1982.

We've inducted eight offensive linemen in the last seven years. We have not inducted any safeties during that same stretch.

Last year four pass rushers reached the penultimate cutdown to 11 for the Class of 2007: ends Fred Dean and Richard Dent and linebackers Derrick Thomas and Andre Tippett. But all were eliminated in the final voting cutdown to six.

Cornerback Dick LeBeau ranks seventh on the all-time interception list with 62 in a 14-year career. He has never been a finalist for the Hall of Fame.

Cornerback Emmitt Thomas ranks ninth on the all-time interception list with 58 in a 13-year career. He too has never been in the room to have his Hall of Fame candidacy discussed by the full selection committee and both LeBeau and Thomas retired from the game in the 1970s.

I'm also a member of the seniors sub-committee for the Hall of Fame. The numbers there are even worse.

Since the establishment of a "senior" candidate in 1972, there have been 39 nominations. Twenty-eight have been offensive players, and there also have been five owners and coaches. That leaves six defensive nominees in 35 years and former Green Bay Packers defensive tackle Henry Jordan was nominated twice.

The last time a defensive player was nominated as a senior candidate was linebacker Nick Buoniconti in 2001. Overall, we've nominated 13 offensive linemen as senior candidates but we've never nominated a defensive back.

The process needs to be fixed. We the voters need to learn what NFL coaches figured out decades ago defense wins championships. And defensive players need to be recognized in Canton for their contributions.
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Old 08-05-2007, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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(I guess this is our Hall of Fame thread, so I'll post this here.)

Rick Gosselin, in his recent "From the 50" column/newsletter, wrote an excellent piece on the lack of defensive players in the Hall of Fame:
I saw that article and Peter King wrote a similar one as well and they're both right. Its uncomprehendable how few Defensive players are in the Hall. This is a travesty and a joke and needs to be rectified immediately.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 08-05-2007, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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Swann played half of his career before the NFL made major rule changes that insisted on a more pass oriented offense.
He played three seasons 74-76 before the rules changes of 1977. The first he played very little 1975 saw him make the Pro Bowl, 76 was a poor season by his standards. So including 1977 he played a further 6 seasons.

The thing is throughout the 80's enforcement of the pass interference laws brought in for the 1977 were not really enforced as initially planned. It wasn't until a review in 1992 that the Referees took stock and started to enact the rules as set out in 77.

I can name at least four receivers that I consider better than Swann who did not benefit from playing on the Steelers and are not in the Hall. Harold Carmichael, Bob Hayes, Drew Pearson and Cliff Branch. Then when you stand him against the greats of the 60's and 70's he pales in comparison. Take Biletnikoff, Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell even Charlie Joiner he just doesnt compare.
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Old 08-05-2007, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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For the people arguing against Swann, I'll quote myself again.

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Some food for thought...

John from Jacksonville: You often mention that postseason play is one of your criteria for entry to the Hall of Fame. Is the postseason even more important for a coach?
Vic: It’s important. I don’t care if it’s for players or coaches, postseason performance, in my opinion, is a major measuring stick for evaluating players’ and coaches’ careers. There are exceptions, of course. Some guys play their whole careers for bad teams and don’t see much postseason action. Barry Sanders kind of fits into that category. For the guys who have played a lot of postseason games, however, I judge them in a big way on what they’ve done in the postseason. Take a guy who’s played the equivalent or near equivalent of a whole season in the postseason. Now compare his stats from the postseason to his regular seasons. I’ll use two guys – Michael Irvin and Lynn Swann – as examples, but there are a lot more of them I could use. Irvin’s and Swann’s postseasons are as good as their best regular seasons. In other words, when the light was shining brightest, the games were the biggest and the competition was the toughest, they played at their highest level. That, in my opinion, is a Hall of Famer. The same goes for coaches.

http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6183
Really, the only argument people have against Swann are statistics. No, he did not put up dominating statistics. However, he was a dominant presence on the field for the Steelers. Hell, he ended with a career average 16.3 yards per catch.
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Old 08-05-2007, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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For the people arguing against Swann, I'll quote myself again.



Really, the only argument people have against Swann are statistics. No, he did not put up dominating statistics. However, he was a dominant presence on the field for the Steelers. Hell, he ended with a career average 16.3 yards per catch.
I think John Stallworths was 17.8 YPC
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Really, the only argument people have against Swann are statistics. No, he did not put up dominating statistics. However, he was a dominant presence on the field for the Steelers. Hell, he ended with a career average 16.3 yards per catch.
Wow, you mean the only arguments against a player have to do with his performance on the field, playing the game. Wow, so unfair, a travesty of justice.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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Wow, you mean the only arguments against a player have to do with his performance on the field, playing the game. Wow, so unfair, a travesty of justice.
the whole point was his on the field performance aren't well represented by his statistics, on the field he was a much better player than his numbers show.
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Old 08-06-2007, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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Richard Dent should have gotten in like 5 years ago.
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