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Old 01-12-2007, 05:17 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
Bush's YPC is exactly what Ladainian Tomlinson's was in his rookie season.
This would be valid, if New Orleans didn't have a very good O-Line and Deuce McAllister was outclassing him as a running back. Marshall Faulk broke down Bush on NFL Total Access, he showed multiple times where Bush broke plays outside, when he could've cut back for big yards. Since that is the antithesis of what is needed from a ZBS runner, it isn't really a surprise that Bush said that the Texans were never really interested in him, prior to the draft.

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Eventually Bush will grow into an every down back role just like Tiki Barber and Brian Westbrook have.
Maybe, or he could be what he has been for New Orleans, primarily a slot receiver who runs end arounds.
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now. Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back. He was still the best player in the draft last year and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft. Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK? Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Defense doesnt win championships, good teams do.

Note i still think they made the right pick, i just hate it when people say stupid things like "defense wins championships" or "you just have to run and stop the run".
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now. Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back. He was still the best player in the draft last year and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft. Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK? Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.

Rbs are expected to have the biggest impacts as rookies though and most rookie Rbs are very hot from the start. With short RB careers they are expected to be esstentially hitting their prime after their rookie years.

The reason everyone is being so patient with Mario is because of his insane physical talent and the fact that most Dlineman don't start hitting their prime until they are 26-27.. And by that time the Texans should be a good team where as in 5-6 years Reggie will be ending his prime
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Old 01-12-2007, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Another one of my basic points is the Texans are trying to put fans in the stands.
they sold out every game this year. what was your point again?
Ok, well watching many of their games this year, i still saw tons of empty seats. Take that for what it is.

And dont make your remarks like a little *****.
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Old 01-12-2007, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ncbigbody
Ok, well watching many of their games this year, i still saw tons of empty seats. Take that for what it is.
if the tickets were sold, and are sold again next year, it's unlikely the team cares. this is a business and they likely don't lose much money because a few people didn't show up.

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And dont make your remarks like a little ***********.
:roll: grow a slightly thicker skin and you won't have to worry about it. or just cry about it.
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Old 01-13-2007, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now.
If anything McAllister hasn't been used enough.

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Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back.
Yet every other Running Back, from the '06 class, has outclassed Bush as pure Running Backs. This is the one position in which instant production isn't just the usual, it's expected. The position is predicated a lot on instincts and god-given talent. There isn't a lot of precedent for a 'great' Running Back struggling in his first year, then becoming an elite back. That is why he may only be what he is, or I should say what he was down the stretch for the Saints. Most of his productive "rushing" stats have actually came on end around from the slot receiver position.


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He was still the best player in the draft last year
According to most, but not all.

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and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft.
Hardly, that would belong to Vince Young.

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Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK?
He will improve, but he won't be "the next Faulk" as conjectured by ESPN.

Quote:
Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.
That's the difference; his position has precedent for learning curve, Bruce Smith for example. Running Back is the antithesis of this. Besides;Multiple games he had an impact, without actually getting the stats. The Jets, Raiders and Jaguars games for example. As is always the case with the position. He started out slow, but finished strong. He just needs to develop his technique.
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Old 01-13-2007, 07:05 AM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Originally Posted by Shiver
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
I'm not sure New Orleans has a "very good O-line" just yet. They've improved over the last half of the season but they're about average at run blocking right now. And come on, McAllister is a veteran former pro bowler who gets twice as many opportunities as Bush does right now.
If anything McAllister hasn't been used enough.

Quote:
Bush is a 21 year old rookie. He's still learning the intangibles needed to become an all around running back.
Yet every other Running Back, from the '06 class, has outclassed Bush as pure Running Backs. This is the one position in which instant production isn't just the usual, it's expected. The position is predicated a lot on instincts and god-given talent. There isn't a lot of precedent for a 'great' Running Back struggling in his first year, then becoming an elite back. That is why he may only be what he is, or I should say what he was down the stretch for the Saints. Most of his productive "rushing" stats have actually came on end around from the slot receiver position.


Quote:
He was still the best player in the draft last year
According to most, but not all.

Quote:
and he still has the potential to become the best player in the draft.
Hardly, that would belong to Vince Young.

Quote:
Let's not totally write him off just yet, OK?
He will improve, but he won't be "the next Faulk" as conjectured by ESPN.

Quote:
Especially when we're being extremely cautious and patient in regards to one Mario Williams.
That's the difference; his position has precedent for learning curve, Bruce Smith for example. Running Back is the antithesis of this. Besides;Multiple games he had an impact, without actually getting the stats. The Jets, Raiders and Jaguars games for example. As is always the case with the position. He started out slow, but finished strong. He just needs to develop his technique.

Hmm, well, I'm not entirely sure that there is NO precedent for a rookie back "struggling" in his rushing numbers and then becoming elite at his position. I'll leave it up to you to do the research, but there have been situations in the past where a rookie running backs have not put up eye-popping rushing statistics but ultimately went on to have long and productive (in some cases hall of fame) careers.

In short I would rather judge these players by what they do on an individual basis rather than where the so called positional precedent dictates they should be at in their development. I just think that it's a really faulty way to try to evaluate a player and I'll give you a simple example of why using your last paragraph: the inverse of your Bush statement would indicate that very few, if any defensive ends have made an major impact in their rookie seasons. Is that the truth? No, far from it in fact (again, do your own research in this regard). Are we then to assume Williams won't be successful? Of course not, because not all players are created equal, and not all situations are created equal.

Again, I think I'm better off than you will be by not assigning a certain expectation simply because a guy plays this position or that position. I sense a bit of an agenda on your part because you assign completely different standards to two players that are both highly regarded rookies out of college, both very young even by NFL rookie standards,
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Old 01-13-2007, 07:29 AM    (permalink
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I vote VY - having the chance to draft a home town hero is rare enough, let alone a home town hero with the potential VY has. I think VY was a once in a franchise's history type of opportunity given said potential and home town connection, and their reasoning for not taking that opportunity, David Carr, is now looking less and less plausible.
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Old 01-13-2007, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by OzTitan
I vote VY - having the chance to draft a home town hero is rare enough, let alone a home town hero with the potential VY has. I think VY was a once in a franchise's history type of opportunity given said potential and home town connection, and their reasoning for not taking that opportunity, David Carr, is now looking less and less plausible.
I agree, just on a PR/ticket selling standpoint, Vince Young is the pick, obviously his talent is also a huge factor, but he would have been too huge for words at least until he played behind that O-line.
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Old 01-13-2007, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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They pick it up, Reggie will improve. However; I don't see Reggie Bush ever becoming a better pure runner than he is a slot receiver who runs end around plays. Remember, most of his explosive runs came from the slot position, not from the backfield. I think everyone needs to look at him, outside the context of just a Running Back. He's an offensive weapon, he's the Excalibur to Sean Payton's Arthur. I just don't see him being good enough to warrant bypassing the Texans' biggest need by far, and a almost as good of a prospect, per consensus.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.

WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.

Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.

Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.
Good point Chris.... so those two not only ACCOMPLISHED special things in NCAA, but they weren't flukes.... they ALWAYS had been special athletes. Athletes who backed it up at the next level.... and dominated again.
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Old 01-13-2007, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Patriots-Lions
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.

WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.
Well facts also show that Curtis Enis averaged 3.7 in his first year, Rashaan Salaam averaged 3.6, and Lawrence Phillips averaged 3.3, so it does work both ways...
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Patriots-Lions
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
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Originally Posted by Patriots-Lions
Marshall Faulk didn't average more than 4.1 ypc until his 6th year in the league. He also averaged 3.7 and 3.0 in his second and third year respectively. Tiki Barber averaged 3.8 and 3.2 in his first two seasons. Walter Payton averaged 3.5 in his rookie year. O.J. Simpson only got 3.9 in his rookie year. So I'd say there is plenty of precedent to RB starting out slow and picking it up.

WOW, someone bringing some FACTS to the table. Thanks amigo.

Reggie Bush was HUGE in opening up that Saints offense and if anyone doesn't see that, they know nothing about the game of football.

Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't. Who's the difference-maker? It ain't Mario. GREAT POLL ACTION THOUGH..... good activity.
Well facts also show that Curtis Enis averaged 3.7 in his first year, Rashaan Salaam averaged 3.6, and Lawrence Phillips averaged 3.3, so it does work both ways...
Or;

Gale Sayers

Code:
                 +--------------------------+-------------------------+
                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1965 chi |  14 |   166    867    5.2   14 |    29    507  17.5    6 |
Barry Sanders

Code:
                 +--------------------------+-------------------------+
                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1989 det |  15 |   280   1470    5.2   14 |    24    282  11.8    0 |
Tony Dorsett

Code:
                 +--------------------------+-------------------------+
                 |          Rushing         |        Receiving        |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards    Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1977 dal |  14 |   208   1007    4.8   12 |    29    273   9.4    1 |

Although I am a bit surprised by the examples you gave. It can go both ways. And I feel it's a bit different as the feature back, as most of those were, in contrast to the role Bush has played this year. He hasn't made the explosive runs you would expect from the 'change of pace' back, with explosive speed, to the power back.

The thing about Bush, as a Tailback, he is averaging about 4.5 Y.P.C in "wide" runs, and 2.6 Y.P.C inside. A lot of those wide runs come on end around plays, from the slot position. It's been something Sean Payton has done all season, utilizing Bush coming around, and Deuce up the gut, to keep defenses honest.
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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The problem with the examples that I gave were that I couldn't think of, off the top of my head, a RB that started his career off as a change of pace back, that was either a bust or a hall of famer and fit my arguements. Bush is a rare exception in that regard, whereas the majority of RB (especially highly drafted ones) are thrust into the starting role immediately.
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Personally I don't think it's appropriate to classify Reggie Bush as just a Running Back.
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Well I don't think he's just a RB either. That's why when his career is over with, I don't think it'd be fair to judge him just based on his ypc or rushing TD. Reggie Bush is more of an all around player. As we've seen this year, he's had an impact in multiple phases of the game. If the Saints keep using him like they are, Reggie could set receiving records for a RB. Although, like we've agreed it wouldn't be fair to give him those records as a "Running Back."
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Old 01-13-2007, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Mario pause not

Reggie is the guy
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....
Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so ******* premature.
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young too a team that was 4-12 last year, and rattled off 6 straight wins at one point this season, including some good wins. He's only going to get better too, like Bush. Mario will get better too. But two of these three dominated games and won titles.... one didn't.

Two of them played at top programs who basically take their pick of the top recruits in the country... one didn't.
Good point Chris.... so those two not only ACCOMPLISHED special things in NCAA, but they weren't flukes.... they ALWAYS had been special athletes. Athletes who backed it up at the next level.... and dominated again.
I don't get what you're saying here. I was getting at the fact that Bush had a Heisman QB, a top-5 O-Line, great WRs, and an excellent defense other than last year. NC State has the D-Line, and that's it as far as I know.
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....
Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.
QFT

Also; I love the 'teams don't game plan Defensive Ends,' that is quite possibly the most moronic thing I have ever read.
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Old 01-13-2007, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
Quote:
Originally Posted by SterlingSharpe
What type of impact is Mario having in the playoffs like Reggie Bush is doing right now?

This is something you cannot teach here.

Moose just said these plays are perfectly defended, but Reggie has something that you can't defend. Just like at USC for 2 years... and don't get me started on Vince Young's impact on a defenses game plan.

Teams don't plan for Mario Williams anymore than they do for Aaron Kampman, the 2006 NFC sack king.

I'd love to get back to every one of you who still thinks that Mario Williams is/or will be a better player than Bush & Young..... in a year and two years.....reminds me of Sam Bowie being defended in 1984.....
Good Lord. He's had two impressive runs. Talk to me when he consistently moves the ball at an all-world level game in and game out. And it's Mario's fault the Saints got a $50 million dollar QB, and happened to fall upon the best WR in the draft with the 4th last pick? Actually, talk to me when he shows ability to consistently run up the middle for a whole season. Talk to me when Vince Young throws for more TDs than he has picks. All this talk is so *********** premature.
Vince Young's game is not padded with stats, its padded with wins. Thats what he does. Talk to me when Mario helps the Texans win games.
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