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Old 12-15-2008, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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Yea he might end up going a few spots before us but I think he should go in the 16-25 range where we should end up. Larry English is getting a lot of talk as a round 2 rush backer, he's a really quick dude, I still prefer Sintim but English looks pretty good from the little I've seen and would be a good pick with one of our 2nds.
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Old 12-15-2008, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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Yea he might end up going a few spots before us but I think he should go in the 16-25 range where we should end up. Larry English is getting a lot of talk as a round 2 rush backer, he's a really quick dude, I still prefer Sintim but English looks pretty good from the little I've seen and would be a good pick with one of our 2nds.
I almost mentioned him in the group that I named earlier but I think he's just a notch below. I haven't seen a ton on him but he does look like he can be a good pass rush specialist to fill in for Roth and certain downs ala Charlie Anderson this season.

But I haven't seen enough to know if I'd like him full time as a future replacement for Joey Porter in 2 years.
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Old 12-15-2008, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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Quick question...has there been any talk about you guys re-signing RT Vernon Carey?
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Quick question...has there been any talk about you guys re-signing RT Vernon Carey?
Not yet. Probably wouldn't hear anything until the year is over.

But I'd be mildly surprised if he was still around next season. His play has been very inconsistent this season and he's plays too soft. He's not he mauler type that Sparano and Parcells look for.

We might tag him and try to trade him tho as Parcells and Ireland have proven to be very adept at getting draft picks for our players instead of just letting them walk and a solid OT like Carey will have plenty of value on the market. No reason we couldn't tag him and get a 2nd round pick for him like GB did with Corey Williams last season.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Not yet. Probably wouldn't hear anything until the year is over.

But I'd be mildly surprised if he was still around next season. His play has been very inconsistent this season and he's plays too soft. He's not he mauler type that Sparano and Parcells look for.

We might tag him and try to trade him tho as Parcells and Ireland have proven to be very adept at getting draft picks for our players instead of just letting them walk and a solid OT like Carey will have plenty of value on the market. No reason we couldn't tag him and get a 2nd round pick for him like GB did with Corey Williams last season.
Haha....I'm pretty sure the other teams would laugh Parcells out of the room if he tagged Vernon Carey. That's like 10 million for one season. There's absolutely no leverage if the rest of the league doesn't think you're willing to keep the player for the franchise pricetag.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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Is anyone else let down by Scott having us pass on BJ Raji and Everette Brown to take Cushing. I don't mind Cushing but damn if Brown and Raji haven't proven to be much better players this year and much healthier (something Parcells strives for).

I'd be willing to take Cushing in the 25-30 range (Same range for Sintim) but never at 19 where we should be looking at Brown and Raji.
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Haha....I'm pretty sure the other teams would laugh Parcells out of the room if he tagged Vernon Carey. That's like 10 million for one season. There's absolutely no leverage if the rest of the league doesn't think you're willing to keep the player for the franchise pricetag.
It won't matter if people know we aren't gonna keep him. They will be willing to give up the pick in order to insure they get him instead of risking a bidding war and losing him on the open market.

Besides, there are contracts alot worse then 10 million for 1 season for a starting RT.

Everyone knew we weren't keeping JT and we got a 2nd rounder and another pick for him.

OTs have alot of value and there will be tons of demand for him. (Hence people asking already) There's no reason Parcells can't bluff and get a day 1 pick from somebody.
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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A bidding war for Vernon Carey....I'll believe it when I see it.
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Old 12-16-2008, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Cushing would be a nice player to have but he isn't going to be an elite rush backer (there is a lot of talk as him as an inside backer in a 3-4) that I think we should look at in the first. I want one a NT (Raji), OLB (Brown or one of the other guys that come out) or CB (if one of the top 2 guys falls).
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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Cushing would be a nice player to have but he isn't going to be an elite rush backer (there is a lot of talk as him as an inside backer in a 3-4) that I think we should look at in the first. I want one a NT (Raji), OLB (Brown or one of the other guys that come out) or CB (if one of the top 2 guys falls).
I have to agree with you, here's kinda like my shortlist of guys I want for the early protion of the draft.

NT- BJ Raji (1st), Mount Cody (2nd), Ron Brace (2nd)
OLB- Everette Brown (1st), Aaron Maybin (1st) Clint Sintim (1st/2nd), Larry English (2nd)
ILB- Rey Malualaga (1st), Brian Cushing (1st/2nd)
CB- Vontae Davis (1st), Alphonzo Smith (1st), Macho Harris (2nd), Mike Mickens (2nd)
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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A bidding war for Vernon Carey....I'll believe it when I see it.
You don't think that Parcells can find 2-3 teams interested in a starting right tackle that would be willing to give up a Day 1 pick for him?

Look at the situations with Kris Jenkins and Shaun Rodgers last season. Everyone knew their teams didn't want them back and they were coming off much, much worse seasons then Carey currently is and they were able to get a good bounty for them.
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Old 12-16-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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I think we have very drastically different opinions of Carey. Jenkins, Taylor, and Rodgers are all pro-bowl talents. Carey probably wouldn't even start for half the teams in the league.
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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I think we have very drastically different opinions of Carey. Jenkins, Taylor, and Rodgers are all pro-bowl talents. Carey probably wouldn't even start for half the teams in the league.
I understand the others guys have been to pro bowls but Carey isn't exactly chopped liver. Remember the guy was a 1st round draft pick and played very well last year, alot of people thought he was gonna take a step forward this season and finally earn a Pro Bowl birth. Obviously, that didn't happen but he hasn't played bad by any stretch. He just hasn't dominated. He's had issues with inconsistency but he has done a good job for us. And he still has potential.

Not to mention, he's only 27. All the others mentioned above were much older.

Problem is he is a finesse blocker and Parcells/Sparano like road graters. So we will likely ship him out but he will definitely have value around the league.

I don't see any reason why a 27 year old OT with his potential, coming off a decent season where his QB is having a career year and his RB was just named to the Pro-Bowl, would not be able to get at least a 3rd rounder.
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Old 12-17-2008, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Came here looking to find any thoughts on Bess, but ran into the discussion here.

Interesting stuff... but I think some of you may be off the mark on some things...

Vernon Carey being worth a Day 1 pick is hard to believe. I mean really... if you thought he was worth that much, then why aren't you guys talking about extending him?

I don't really recall Parcells tagging someone and then turning around and trading him either. Maybe someone can remind me...

On BJ Raji... seems like a lot of you want him pretty badly. Let me just say, don't get your hopes up. One of Parcells philosophies is that you can find a NT late. Look at where he drafted Ferg. Look at Ratliff. He also drafted Montavious Stanley (never made it) for us. All late round picks. He just wants someone nasty who will do the dirty work. He doesn't require a skilled athlete. He'll prefer to mold that guy instead. If I were you, I think Parcells would look at a guy like Ron Brace who he can get much later in the draft than Raji.

Parcells does concentrate on building the front 7 first though. It's a big priority for him. I saw that some of you don't like Scott's selection of Cushing for you. I'm with Scott on that one. Parcells loves familiarity and Cushing screams that. In fact I'd say the chances are about 80% that you guys get him. Whether it's at ILB or OLB, Parcells will figure that out later. He drafted Carpenter as an OLB, then stuck him at ILB. The other 20%, I think you guys draft Sintim. Parcells has strong ties with Al Groh and he considers defensive players coming out of Viriginia already prepped to play his system. Like the NFL is graduate level football for them.

Lastly, I think you guys are wrong about Parcells liking road graders over finesse guys. I hate the word finesse because those aren't the 2 classifications of OL out there, imo. But Parcells likes smart OL. Mobile OL. Tough OL. Well coached coming out of college OL. ...and believe it or not, he likes caucasion OL.
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Old 12-17-2008, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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Not yet. Probably wouldn't hear anything until the year is over.

But I'd be mildly surprised if he was still around next season. His play has been very inconsistent this season and he's plays too soft. He's not he mauler type that Sparano and Parcells look for.

We might tag him and try to trade him tho as Parcells and Ireland have proven to be very adept at getting draft picks for our players instead of just letting them walk and a solid OT like Carey will have plenty of value on the market. No reason we couldn't tag him and get a 2nd round pick for him like GB did with Corey Williams last season.
Below is a post of mine from 9/19 where I brought up the topic of trading Carey:

While I agree that this will be a tough yr, I don't want to project their draft position yet. I do agree that they will at best (or worst depending how you look at it) be in the top 10 and most likely, top 5. I tend to think they may show signs of life late this yr...

I think the good part about being this bad is that you can go pretty much anywhere with the draft. I think the preferred pick would be a pass rushing OLB if all things were equal, but a shutdown CB or stud ILB (Maualaga) could easily jump in there. I would also not rule out a big time NT if there was someone worth taking that high...

One other thing, they may have more picks than they currently do. At this pt, it doesn't look like Ginn is fitting into their plans and don't be surprised if a guy like Carey gets franchised to get traded down the road either. One thing for certain is that there will be plenty of turnover again....



Going back to early in the yr, I thought that might be the approach with Carey, however I also thought they would have a top 10 pick. With the actual results have come some changes:

While I would think they would like to get some value for him, I just have not seen enough to think that someone would give up the $$ to sign him and a fairly high draft choice. Especially with the fact that the OL crop appears deep again and there may be a record number of underclassmen in the draft making this one a pretty deep one. If they can do it, great, because I think they are going to look for a big, physical RT who pushes people off of the ball in free agency or the draft.

I truly expect them to go front 7 on D. My preference is for the pass-rusher type OLB or the big NT. However, do not count out a big DB or even another OL as the pick. They do not seem too enamored with Satele and someone like Unger from Oregon is the big, physical drive blocking C that they may like.

Too early to say at this point. But, we need to see where they end up picking before making assumptions. The difference between 9-7 and 11-5 could be 5-6 spots this yr.
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Old 12-17-2008, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Came here looking to find any thoughts on Bess, but ran into the discussion here.

Interesting stuff... but I think some of you may be off the mark on some things...

Vernon Carey being worth a Day 1 pick is hard to believe. I mean really... if you thought he was worth that much, then why aren't you guys talking about extending him?

I don't really recall Parcells tagging someone and then turning around and trading him either. Maybe someone can remind me...

On BJ Raji... seems like a lot of you want him pretty badly. Let me just say, don't get your hopes up. One of Parcells philosophies is that you can find a NT late. Look at where he drafted Ferg. Look at Ratliff. He also drafted Montavious Stanley (never made it) for us. All late round picks. He just wants someone nasty who will do the dirty work. He doesn't require a skilled athlete. He'll prefer to mold that guy instead. If I were you, I think Parcells would look at a guy like Ron Brace who he can get much later in the draft than Raji.

Parcells does concentrate on building the front 7 first though. It's a big priority for him. I saw that some of you don't like Scott's selection of Cushing for you. I'm with Scott on that one. Parcells loves familiarity and Cushing screams that. In fact I'd say the chances are about 80% that you guys get him. Whether it's at ILB or OLB, Parcells will figure that out later. He drafted Carpenter as an OLB, then stuck him at ILB. The other 20%, I think you guys draft Sintim. Parcells has strong ties with Al Groh and he considers defensive players coming out of Viriginia already prepped to play his system. Like the NFL is graduate level football for them.

Lastly, I think you guys are wrong about Parcells liking road graders over finesse guys. I hate the word finesse because those aren't the 2 classifications of OL out there, imo. But Parcells likes smart OL. Mobile OL. Tough OL. Well coached coming out of college OL. ...and believe it or not, he likes caucasion OL.
D-Unit,

I also thought about the Carey thing a few months ago, but I honestly don't think he will have the value now to pull off the sign and trade. I hope I am wrong.

As for what you bring up, I understand that he has found NT's late, but I think he will not pass up a chance to add another big body to the DL if he is available. I don't see Cushing as his type of player. I do not see the physical style that he likes out of his LB's when I watch him. Maybe I am wrong, but I consider him more of a finesse LB. Sintim is a different story. I think he is a great fit for this D. A good point you make about Brace over Raji is that he is actually a bigger guy (ht and wt) and that may make him more attractive to what Tuna wants in a NT. You never know, he may look at a guy like Cody for NT and hope that he does not eat his way out of the league.

One other thing this yr is that the DB crop may not be too deep. If so, he may jump earlier than normal to take a DB and I would really not count out an OL if the right guy is on the board.
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JoeyJr09 View Post
Is anyone else let down by Scott having us pass on BJ Raji and Everette Brown to take Cushing. I don't mind Cushing but damn if Brown and Raji haven't proven to be much better players this year and much healthier (something Parcells strives for).

I'd be willing to take Cushing in the 25-30 range (Same range for Sintim) but never at 19 where we should be looking at Brown and Raji.
I'n not let down by the pick because I can very well see Parcells taking a guy like Cushing, who seems very similar to Bobby Carpenter from a couple years ago. He is a tough-nosed (although injury-prone) kid from Jersey who seems like just the right fit for Parcells down here in Miami. It would not surprise me at all to see him pass on a guy liek Brown in favor of someone like Sintim or Cushing if it came down to it. Would it be the smart thing to do, who knows? But I trust Parcells in whatever he does.

What do you guys think about Michael Johnson as a possible pick for us? And how do you think the Tuna will view Johnson?
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:12 AM    (permalink
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I don't see any reason why a 27 year old OT with his potential, coming off a decent season where his QB is having a career year and his RB was just named to the Pro-Bowl, would not be able to get at least a 3rd rounder.
Well besides the fact that he's just not very good, because like I already said, nobody is going to trade for a guy that has a 1 year charge of 10+ million dollars. They won't be able to sign him to a longterm contract because he'll have absolutely no incentive to do so, at least not under any reasonable terms. Why sign a 5 year deal with, say, 10 million to sign, when you can play for 1 year, make 10 million, and then become a FA in 2010? It's just not going to happen.
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Old 12-18-2008, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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Do you actually think Vernon Carey would sign for anything close to a 5 year 10 mil deal? He's going to get something a lot closer to 30 mil.
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Old 12-18-2008, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Do you actually think Vernon Carey would sign for anything close to a 5 year 10 mil deal? He's going to get something a lot closer to 30 mil.
Keep going...

I think you could be talking about a $50 million deal with $18-20 million guaranteed.
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Old 12-18-2008, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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I haven't gone through the last 60 pages to see if this has been discussed or not, but I was hoping to get a little evaluation on Jake Long and Phillip Merling. How are they doing so far?
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Keep going...

I think you could be talking about a $50 million deal with $18-20 million guaranteed.
My thinking exactly.

I think Bearsfans and some others are really undervaluing what a young talented OT with experience on both sides will get on the market.

Someone will be willing to pay him and some teams will be willing to pony up a draft pick for him.
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Old 12-19-2008, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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What do you guys think about Michael Johnson as a possible pick for us? And how do you think the Tuna will view Johnson?
Anyone?????
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Old 12-19-2008, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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Keep going...

I think you could be talking about a $50 million deal with $18-20 million guaranteed.
Read the post folks, I said 10 million to sign, not a 10 million dollar contract. Big difference.

Most "guaranteed" money comes in the form of defferred roster bonus money that a player may or may not ever see. A franchise tag is straight up guaranteed cash.

A 50 million dollar deal is a completely meaningless term. Javor Walker signed a 55 million dollar contract, the signing bonus was 11 million dollars. That's probably all he'll ever see.
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Old 12-19-2008, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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Read the post folks, I said 10 million to sign, not a 10 million dollar contract. Big difference.

Most "guaranteed" money comes in the form of defferred roster bonus money that a player may or may not ever see. A franchise tag is straight up guaranteed cash.

A 50 million dollar deal is a completely meaningless term. Javor Walker signed a 55 million dollar contract, the signing bonus was 11 million dollars. That's probably all he'll ever see.
10 Million to sign is not too horrible. We are talking about Justin Smiley money at that point.

But 20 million guaranteed is a huge deal.

That's Joey Porter territory.

That's a pretty sizeable contract.
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