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Old 08-14-2007, 03:23 PM    (permalink
TheChampIsHere
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A point about the Saints last year....

There is a reason no one expected them to do anything last year. yes, this is mostly because of the huge lack of talent on their defense and Bush had nothing to do with that. The fact is there defense was still pretty bad and for them to win like they did they needed their offense to be flat-out spectacular, which it was.

And not to take anything away from Brees, Deuce, Colston and the rest, but to me Bush was really the centerpiece of that offense. Did he get the rock every play, did he put up huge numbers? no and no. but like Ive been saying this dude was a menacing presence all game no matter where he lined up at, there is no better decoy than Reggie Bush. When they run inside to Deuce and fake outside to Reggie, you dont think that opens things up inside for Deuce and defenders are forced to go commit to containing Reggie. The defense absolutely had to account for him every play no matter where he was at and accounting for Reggie aint easy because I dont know that there is a player in this league who can handle Reggie 1 on 1. What Im saying is, I dont think the Saints sniff the playoffs without Reggie last year, because what is their offense without him? A good, efficient QB, a good power runner and a good possesion receiver. Wheres the playmaker in the offense? Wheres the explosion? Take away Bush and the NO offense starts to look more like the Raven offense.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I think The Armadillo could have a great career, and might be that guy that is said to be the 2nd best running back post 2000. 15,000 yards for his career (of course barring health) is clearly not unrealistic.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Leaf was a highly touted player who had a great college career and went at the top of the draft. And I wouldn't call Bush's rookie year strong, it was decent(as a runner. And that's what he is, a running back). For a strong rookie year, IMO he'd need to get over 4 ypc(especially in that offense) and break a run over 20 yards at least once. Like Mike Bell, for instance. And had a much better rookie year as a runner. And he was undrafted.
ummm are you joking? OK yeah busts happen, but what indication is there that Reggie will be a bust? As a runner? I mean honestly are you stupid? Reggies 700 receiving yards dont count because his position says running back? So I guess Marshall Faulk wasnt one of the greatest of all time because he got so many of his yards receiving. Get outta here with all your ridiculous homerism saying Mike Bell had a batter rookie year. Bush piled up 1300 all purpose yards, same as Maurice Drew, almost double Mike Bell. And he was the centerpiece of one of the best offenses in the NFL for a team that was the surprise team of the year based on the strength of that. He completely took over a number of games and down the stretch he was looking scary and averaged 5.1 y/c in december. Where people get the idea Bush didnt have an outstanding rookie season I have no clue, because he was spectacular.
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CutlerChris View Post
Ryan Leaf was a highly touted player who had a great college career and went at the top of the draft. And I wouldn't call Bush's rookie year strong, it was decent(as a runner. And that's what he is, a running back). For a strong rookie year, IMO he'd need to get over 4 ypc(especially in that offense) and break a run over 20 yards at least once. Like Mike Bell, for instance. And had a much better rookie year as a runner. And he was undrafted.
Okay, let's not get things too twisted here. Bush is far more than just a runningback, period. Hell, his other aspects that he brings EXCEED what he brings to the table as a runningback at this point in his career -- but he IS a weapon that has to be accounted for every time he's on the field. If he was merely a "runningback" he wouldn't have went #2 overall in the draft -- he went so highly because he's a threat to take it to the house every time he touches the football whether it be on an off-tackle play, lined up in the slot, or as a punt returner. Hell, I'm willing to bet money that if Bush was merely just a WR prospect he still would have went in the first round. So, to just pigeon-hold him into just the position of "runningback" is silly and it takes away from what he does on the field. When he learns to take what the defense gives him on running plays and just get 2-3 yards instead of negative 5 yards (which he has worked diligently on this offseason), he'll become a complete weapon.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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ummm are you joking? OK yeah busts happen, but what indication is there that Reggie will be a bust? As a runner? I mean honestly are you stupid? Reggies 700 receiving yards dont count because his position says running back? So I guess Marshall Faulk wasnt one of the greatest of all time because he got so many of his yards receiving. Get outta here with all your ridiculous homerism saying Mike Bell had a batter rookie year. Bush piled up 1300 all purpose yards, same as Maurice Drew, almost double Mike Bell. And he was the centerpiece of one of the best offenses in the NFL for a team that was the surprise team of the year based on the strength of that. He completely took over a number of games and down the stretch he was looking scary and averaged 5.1 y/c in december. Where people get the idea Bush didnt have an outstanding rookie season I have no clue, because he was spectacular.
First of all, Bush didn't have more all-purpose yards then Joseph Addai, who combined for over 1400 rushing/receiving yards, so why isn't he in this argument, if 1300 is such an indicator he's going to break out just as well. Reggie's 700 receiving yards inidicate he's not as great a running back as he is a receiver. Which means some of the things being said, like him getting 1200 rushing yards with 1500 receiving yards are hard to imagine just now, and in alll likelihood, will never happen. That's great that he averaged 5.1 y/c in december. What did he do the rest of the time, like the first half of the season? You can't jus disregard half of the season because it wasn't as recent.

There's absolutley zero reason right now to believe that Bush could do some of the things you said he could. Everytime there's an argument over Bush, his supporters feel like if you're not saying he's gonna re-write record books your "hating". Reggie Bush will be a good weapon, but he's not going to re-write records. He's not going to receiver for 1500 yards a year, and he probably won't rush for it either. 88 catches is already a lot, and even if you expect him to improve upon it, he needs about 156 cathces, using his ypc from last season, to hit 1300 yards, that in addition to enough work to get 1200 yards rushing as well. It's just not going to happen.

He looked good his rookie year. But he wasn't a God.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Okay, let's not get things too twisted here. Bush is far more than just a runningback, period. Hell, his other aspects that he brings EXCEED what he brings to the table as a runningback at this point in his career -- but he IS a weapon that has to be accounted for every time he's on the field. If he was merely a "runningback" he wouldn't have went #2 overall in the draft -- he went so highly because he's a threat to take it to the house every time he touches the football whether it be on an off-tackle play, lined up in the slot, or as a punt returner. Hell, I'm willing to bet money that if Bush was merely just a WR prospect he still would have went in the first round. So, to just pigeon-hold him into just the position of "runningback" is silly and it takes away from what he does on the field. When he learns to take what the defense gives him on running plays and just get 2-3 yards instead of negative 5 yards (which he has worked diligently on this offseason), he'll become a complete weapon.
I would say he's far less then just a running back, and far more a wide receiver. Just because he's not good at running the ball, and has talents recieving it, doesn't mean he's more then a running back, it means he's better suited in other roles. And why do you think he would'nt have been drafted so high if he was "just a running back". There have been plenty of running backs drafted in the numbe two spot, who were just running backs. Reggie Bush, right now, is an average runner, and an above average receiver. But to say he's more then a runningback would imply he already has mastered being a running back, which he hasn't.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Okay, let's not get things too twisted here. Bush is far more than just a runningback, period. Hell, his other aspects that he brings EXCEED what he brings to the table as a runningback at this point in his career -- but he IS a weapon that has to be accounted for every time he's on the field. If he was merely a "runningback" he wouldn't have went #2 overall in the draft -- he went so highly because he's a threat to take it to the house every time he touches the football whether it be on an off-tackle play, lined up in the slot, or as a punt returner. Hell, I'm willing to bet money that if Bush was merely just a WR prospect he still would have went in the first round. So, to just pigeon-hold him into just the position of "runningback" is silly and it takes away from what he does on the field. When he learns to take what the defense gives him on running plays and just get 2-3 yards instead of negative 5 yards (which he has worked diligently on this offseason), he'll become a complete weapon.
Reggie Bush is not a natural running back. He's a wide receiver playing running back. Reggie Bush got by an athletic ability in college. The holes his lineman created were open longer than in the NFL and once he got to the safeties, he was gone. In the NFL, as we habe all seen, you can't get by on just athletic ability.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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I would say he's far less then just a running back, and far more a wide receiver. Just because he's not good at running the ball, and has talents recieving it, doesn't mean he's more then a running back, it means he's better suited in other roles. And why do you think he would'nt have been drafted so high if he was "just a running back". There have been plenty of running backs drafted in the numbe two spot, who were just running backs. Reggie Bush, right now, is an average runner, and an above average receiver. But to say he's more then a runningback would imply he already has mastered being a running back, which he hasn't.
Okay, you're completely acting like Bush in entirely INCAPABLE of running the football at all which is not true. He's by far not one of the best of running the ball through the tackles in the league, but you're acting like he's some chump lined in the backfield. He had a decent game against the Giants being merely a "runningback". I'm not acting like he's mastered the position of being a runningback which is obviously false, but he does have the capability of playing that position even if it isn't his strong suit.

You bring up the fact of other runningbacks being soley picked at #2 -- that also has a lot to do with the prospects in the draft. Ronnie Brown was also picked #2 overall... had Brown & Bush been in the same draft, I would be willing to bet that Bush would have been higher than Brown because he IS more than a runningback.

You know what "label" fits Bush the best? Weapon.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Okay, you're completely acting like Bush in entirely INCAPABLE of running the football at all which is not true. He's by far not one of the best of running the ball through the tackles in the league, but you're acting like he's some chump lined in the backfield. He had a decent game against the Giants being merely a "runningback". I'm not acting like he's mastered the position of being a runningback which is obviously false, but he does have the capability of playing that position even if it isn't his strong suit.

You bring up the fact of other runningbacks being soley picked at #2 -- that also has a lot to do with the prospects in the draft. Ronnie Brown was also picked #2 overall... had Brown & Bush been in the same draft, I would be willing to bet that Bush would have been higher than Brown because he IS more than a runningback.
I didn't say he's incapable I said he's average as a runningback, which I don't think you can doubt. By runningback I mean purely running the ball. I know, trust me I know, that's not the only way to judge him, because it eliminates a lot of what he does, but when it comes to just being a running back, he's average, at best.

When it comes to receiving the ball, yes it makes him a better player of course. But its misleading to say he's more then a running back, when he's barely a running back at all. How many running backs typically get 88 catches in their rookie years? Not many, and there are two reasons he gets so many passes. The first is it plays to his strengths, and the second is, he can't be effective from the running back position, running the ball, as well as other people can. Which is why he's not "more then a running back", but just a mixture of an average running back, and a good receiver. He probably would have been drafted higher then Ronnie Brown, look at the prospect he was, there's no denying his athletic ability, but like its been said, that won't always translate, and he's limited in terms of running the ball because he's relied on his pure athletic abilities for so long.

EDIT: I missed the part about WEAPON, in your post, it didn't quote. I'd definitely agree with that, which is kinda what I'm trying to say. That he can't be lumped as more then a running back, or less then a wide receiver. Weapon is more fitting. But he's not a weapon whose gonna get 2500 total yards he just won't. He'll be explosive yeah, but he's not there yet.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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"EDIT: I missed the part about WEAPON, in your post, it didn't quote. I'd definitely agree with that, which is kinda what I'm trying to say. That he can't be lumped as more then a running back, or less then a wide receiver. Weapon is more fitting. But he's not a weapon whose gonna get 2500 total yards he just won't. He'll be explosive yeah, but he's not there yet."

Yeah, it hit me at the very end so I edited it. I never mentioned that I thought Bush could get 2500 yards, but yeah, I guess we came to a mutual ground of the discussion.
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Old 08-14-2007, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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"EDIT: I missed the part about WEAPON, in your post, it didn't quote. I'd definitely agree with that, which is kinda what I'm trying to say. That he can't be lumped as more then a running back, or less then a wide receiver. Weapon is more fitting. But he's not a weapon whose gonna get 2500 total yards he just won't. He'll be explosive yeah, but he's not there yet."

Yeah, it hit me at the very end so I edited it. I never mentioned that I thought Bush could get 2500 yards, but yeah, I guess we came to a mutual ground of the discussion.
Yeah, the 2500 yard part was more directed at the posts of other people, not so much yours. Mutual ground should be fine for now.
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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no way he does it with brian leonard on the team now, id say 1400 - 1500 yards rushing and 500 - 600 yards recieving for jackson

and brain gets about 400 - 500 yards rushing and 300 - 400 recieving
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Old 08-14-2007, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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This thread is no longer worth my commentary. As far any Reggie Bush discussion, I will see you all in January.
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