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Old 09-04-2007, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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yeah, Sydney Rice is going to be a stud.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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The problem is that you don't have any reason to say that Elam is better in coverage than Roy. You said that Elam could have been a better SS than Roy if given the opportunity. And why you said that? Because of two preseasons where Elam barely played outside of ST.
Elam, when he played - and he played against 3rd stringers, was late in the few passes that came his way.
This is the problem with you, you take something like 10 snaps and make a statement. Roy Williams played two quarters in the first three preseason games (I didn't see the last one), Keith Davis replaced him in the second half, and Elam played a few snaps in the fourth quarter. And still, he was late both in run support and in coverage. I don't want to go and watch the tapes again, but off the top of my head I don't remember a single play in which Elam did something.
So, how can you say that he could have been better than Roy Williams? Only because you dislike Roy.
Yes I do. I saw him play coverage. That is how I judge that he plays it better than Roy.

Just let it go. The best known secret in Pro Football is Roy Williams can't cover at all.

I hate Roy b/c he is a SS who can't cover and gives up big plays in the passing game.

Again, so simple.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Is a big deal looking better than Williamson?
You said that Rice should have contributed this year, with catching high balls in the endzone and give us a new dimension, or something like that. Do I remember it correctly?.
Yup. More or less. Plus he was going to be the second best in this draft after CJ.

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Redzone offense is the last thing we need. Owens, Barber, Witten, Crayton, Fasano, Glenn. We havea lot of guys that can score, Owens and Barber last year combined for over 30 TD's. So why we need another redzone threat?
We don't have an alley option in our O. TO does not have the hands and Glenn does not have the size. Regardless, Rice's size brings a dimension we do not have and I would love to have.

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We can find a better WR than Rice in next year's draft.
Don't think so and nothing so far to say otherwise. Time will tell on Rice and all the other alternatives.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Yes I do. I saw him play coverage. That is how I judge that he plays it better than Roy.

Just let it go. The best known secret in Pro Football is Roy Williams can't cover at all.

I hate Roy b/c he is a SS who can't cover and gives up big plays in the passing game.

Again, so simple.
You saw him plying against THIRD stringers. And still he didn't make any plays in coverage, probably because he played in like 20 snaps in all pre-season.

You hate Roy because he can't cover. Without Roy we should have lost the game againts Indianapolis last year. There are a lot of safeties who get burned deep, but there aren't a lot of safeties that makes game-changing plays like Roy does.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Yup. More or less. Plus he was going to be the second best in this draft after CJ.



We don't have an alley option in our O. TO does not have the hands and Glenn does not have the size. Regardless, Rice's size brings a dimension we do not have and I would love to have.



Don't think so and nothing so far to say otherwise. Time will tell on Rice and all the other alternatives.
TO does not have the hands, but the man has 33 TD's in his last 37 games. Give me a huge break! TO is one of the best redzone scorer in the league. Glenn does not have the size but he knows how to score in quick routes. Plus we have a stud called Marion Barber and a TE who is one of the best in the business. And you're trying to telling me that we need help in the redzone?!

By the way, there's no way Rice is better than Bennett, Doucet or Jackson. And they're guys we can pick in next year's draft.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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And you're trying to telling me that we need help in the redzone?!.
Yes, I am.

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By the way, there's no way Rice is better than Bennett, Doucet or Jackson. And they're guys we can pick in next year's draft.
We will see.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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We don't have an alley option in our O. TO does not have the hands and Glenn does not have the size. Regardless, Rice's size brings a dimension we do not have and I would love to have.
boy it just gets better with you, this is probably the most far fetched thing ive ever heard you say...oooo wow rice has size yay, its not like we dont have one of the best goal line backs in the NFL, one of the most complete TE's, and a WR who led the NFL in td receptions last yr...


but your right, we could always get better in the redzone, as well as LT could be just a little bit faster....smh, your getting out of hand with these bold opinions as if your opinion holds some sort of weight around here that merits it being credible
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Yes, I am.

why do we need 2 get better n the redzone, and please tell me whats an acceptable number of td's to score in a season, for us to be "fine" in the redzone, im just curious how many td's more we need to score this yr to not need help...because you know, what you say matters so much, and with your football knowledge its easy to see how you got a job on the field with a team, oh wait..
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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boy it just gets better with you, this is probably the most far fetched thing ive ever heard you say...oooo wow rice has size yay, its not like we dont have one of the best goal line backs in the NFL, one of the most complete TE's, and a WR who led the NFL in td receptions last yr...

but your right, we could always get better in the redzone, as well as LT could be just a little bit faster....smh, your getting out of hand with these bold opinions as if your opinion holds some sort of weight around here that merits it being credible
To say I would draft Rice just for 2007 Red Zone is once again a distortion of the position. Completely and totally misses the point.

To say, I think Rice could have contributed in 2007 in the red zone and developed in to a 1/2 in the coming years as TO and TG get old is a better way. Rice, Hurd, Austin is a nice 4,5,6 in 2007 and future 1/2/3.

But I can't expect individuals involved in hyper sensitive emotionalism would understand a nuanced arguement. They just prefer to not read, not understand, react and attack.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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boy it just gets better with you, this is probably the most far fetched thing ive ever heard you say...oooo wow rice has size yay, its not like we dont have one of the best goal line backs in the NFL, one of the most complete TE's, and a WR who led the NFL in td receptions last yr...


but your right, we could always get better in the redzone, as well as LT could be just a little bit faster....smh, your getting out of hand with these bold opinions as if your opinion holds some sort of weight around here that merits it being credible
Would you like to listen to a technical explanation to why a Rice type receiver would really help?

It is very much linked to Romo not being able to follow through on his release because of his height and natural side armish release.

** hint **
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Well, if you guys don't like Spears...i'll give you the Browns entire starting DL for him!!! I am positive he is better than those old farts. Plus, we play the NE style 3-4 which means the DL doesn't really need be great in pass rush department, since that seems to be the problem with spears.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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One of the reasons Tony does not step into his throws is his height and side arm release. He need the exta trajectory to avoid getting passes knocked down. Even with a passing lane, he seems to throw off his back foot (which is why I am upset with his progress).

Inside the 10, a five or seven step drop is not the best option and usually one uses 3 step drops. Particularly in the Zampese/Coryell system.

For Tony, a 3 step drop in the pocket inside the 10 means he is throwing toward the sidelines moreso than between the hashes. For Tony to throw between the hashes inside the 10 means an OL must open up throwing lanes for those slants and hook patterns.

Getting throwing lans inside the ten is very very hard. DEs typically are lining up in a 5/7. DT are 1/3. LBers are not taking deep drops and frequently blitz to create more pressure. To boot, DL tend to get their hands up lots more b/c they know the passes will have a lower trajectory.

**This is the one part of the field having a Carson Palmer is a huge advantage. At the point of release he probably has 6 inches over Tony (Height plus Arm Length plus over the top Release Point). A big differentiator.**

So, Tony has a few options with better chances of postive plays -- passes outside the has mark and roll outs........

Sidney Rice on a fade pattern is much more attractive than TO or Glenn. Particularly if you line up Rice on the narrow side of the field where lanes are tighter and maybe a TO on the wider side where a slant is still a possiblity.

To think Tony is going to zip in slants ala Aikman Irvin inside the 5 is not likely. Fact is Troy had that play taken away from him by 1995/6 when D's learned how to defend it. And Troy was tall with a text book release and great accuracy.

So, whatever. I am sure this is all baloney and Madden but figured I would try to explain a nuance of the game and why a Sidney Rice type for this team with a short QB and side arm release would be nice.

That alley oop pass in the end zone worked well for Brees in SD and NO .. but he has the horses for the play -- Gates, Jackson, etc

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Old 09-04-2007, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Well, if you guys don't like Spears...i'll give you the Browns entire starting DL for him!!! I am positive he is better than those old farts. Plus, we play the NE style 3-4 which means the DL doesn't really need be great in pass rush department, since that seems to be the problem with spears.
No, Spears has a problem in that NE 3-4 system... it's basically the same one Parcells ran. The Phillips 3-4 is an attacking style and that is what Spears has said fits him better. That is what we are all waiting to see... many have doubts. I hope he starts to show up on Sundays.
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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One of the reasons Tony does not step into his throws is his height and side arm release. He need the exta trajectory to avoid getting passes knocked down. Even with a passing lane, he seems to throw off his back foot (which is why I am upset with his progress).

Inside the 10, a five or seven step drop is not the best option and usually one uses 3 step drops. Particularly in the Zampese/Coryell system.

For Tony, a 3 step drop in the pocket inside the 10 means he is throwing toward the sidelines moreso than between the hashes. For Tony to throw between the hashes inside the 10 means an OL must open up throwing lanes for those slants and hook patterns.

Getting throwing lans inside the ten is very very hard. DEs typically are lining up in a 5/7. DT are 1/3. LBers are not taking deep drops and frequently blitz to create more pressure. To boot, DL tend to get their hands up lots more b/c they know the passes will have a lower trajectory.

**This is the one part of the field having a Carson Palmer is a huge advantage. At the point of release he probably has 6 inches over Tony (Height plus Arm Length plus over the top Release Point). A big differentiator.**

So, Tony has a few options with better chances of postive plays -- passes outside the has mark and roll outs........

Sidney Rice on a fade pattern is much more attractive than TO or Glenn. Particularly if you line up Rice on the narrow side of the field where lanes are tighter and maybe a TO on the wider side where a slant is still a possiblity.

To think Tony is going to zip in slants ala Aikman Irvin inside the 5 is not likely. Fact is Troy had that play taken away from him by 1995/6 when D's learned how to defend it. And Troy was tall with a text book release and great accuracy.

So, whatever. I am sure this is all baloney and Madden but figured I would try to explain a nuance of the game and why a Sidney Rice type for this team with a short QB and side arm release would be nice.

That alley oop pass in the end zone worked well for Brees in SD and NO .. but he has the horses for the play -- Gates, Jackson, etc


saying sidney rice would of been nice for the team is one thing, saying we need help in the redzone is another, which is the phrase you chose to use, and was definately the wrong one...

i like sidney rice, would of liked the pick, but seeing as how wr is probably one of our deepest positions this yr it was necessary, but would i of welcomed him yes. would he of made in an impact at some point, probably...but i know your not proclaiming a rookie wr who has yet to play a real game yet the next great thing...and whether or not we took him, he's not the last good wr that will come out of the draft, and you cant get too much better then we were in the redzone...


But your term "we need help in the redzone" has nothing to do with your man crush for Rice, i know its fun for you to twist everyone's thoughts around to make you the bad guy like we dont listen to you, but half of the things you say are for reaction
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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Rice will be better than doucet and bennet. That is fact.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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But your term "we need help in the redzone" has nothing to do with your man crush for Rice, i know its fun for you to twist everyone's thoughts around to make you the bad guy like we dont listen to you, but half of the things you say are for reaction
Not sure I wrote those words "need help in the redzone" but maybe ....

regardless the bigger point is ..... we could very much use a tall receiver with ball skills for 2007. It is a big help in the red zone, particularly for Tony. Rice could have been a contributor in 2007 and beyond.

But let us argue specifics without conceding broader points No comment over the analysis?
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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Not sure I wrote those words "need help in the redzone" but maybe ....
Post #31

it seems as if you're trying to pick fights, and while you do have some good points, whenever I read them its like somebody is yelling at me.
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Old 09-05-2007, 04:02 AM    (permalink
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That alley oop pass in the end zone worked well for Brees in SD and NO .. but he has the horses for the play -- Gates, Jackson, etc
You kidding, right? Brees didn't have Jackson, Jackson caught 3 passes (and 0 TD's) while Brees was in San Diego. Gates is 6-4 while Witten is 6-5. Brees had McCardell (6-1) and Eric Parker (6-0). I don't know how you get this "Brees had the horses for this play in San Diego".
The fact is, last year Romo and our offense were very good in the redzone. The only times Romo made mistakes in the endzone was because he tried to do too much.
Last year we scored 425 points (4th in the NFL and behind only San Diego, Chicago and Indianapolis), we scored 26 TD's through the air (5th in the NFL), even with Bledsoe starting the first games of the season.
But still you think that Romo's height combined with his realease etc it's a problem in the redzone and we need a Sidney Rice type of receiver.
Looking at last year, this is simply not true. Even if your right about Romo, we still did't have problems scoring. We don't need to improve our scoring, we were one of the best team in scoring last year, and Romo was in his first season as a starter.
Romo doesn't need that type of receiver, he didn't have that type of receiver last year. Your argument could make sense if he had troubles finding his men in the endzone, or if our team had troubles trying to score. But we were one of the better team in scoring, both through the ground and throug the air.
And TO is money in the redzone, he is so physical that is very hard for a DB to not allow him to make a catch in the corner of the endzone. I think this is the play you call "alley oop pass", and TO was very effective for all his career in this type of passes.
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Old 09-05-2007, 04:26 AM    (permalink
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I would be all for Spears moving to NT, since he has shown nothing since getting drafted.

And sorry, bro....

Elam is not better at anything football related than Roy Williams.

I dont want to get into the middle of anyone's feud...but I can not think of anyone that I would consider football savy that would agree with Elam being better than Roy.

Not one.
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Old 09-05-2007, 04:38 AM    (permalink
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By the way, I love the title to this thread. Spears WEARS ME OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-05-2007, 09:38 AM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd View Post
Not sure I wrote those words "need help in the redzone" but maybe ....

regardless the bigger point is ..... we could very much use a tall receiver with ball skills for 2007. It is a big help in the red zone, particularly for Tony. Rice could have been a contributor in 2007 and beyond.

But let us argue specifics without conceding broader points No comment over the analysis?

well you did, go back and re-read, I know you probably think it sounds crazy thinking about it but thats how alot of the things you say sound...post #31


and my comment over the analysis? you claim we need help in the redzone, which is downright outlandish to say the least...we were 2nd in the NFL in td's last yr, 21 rushing and 26 receiving, yet you think an unproven rookie who hasnt played a real NFL game would help us out and make us that much better...the only team we were behind was the chargers, but hey its always room for improvement huh?

and what hogs did brees have in SD for this type of redzone scoring your referring to, that we dont have here right now? do you realize how off base that sounds? please tell me how much sidney rice would of helped our already effective scoring offense, yes he's tall, yes he can play jump ball in the endzone, but really how much better was that going to make us?

just because you fell in love with him doesnt mean he's the only player who will/was going to make an impact somewhere on our team
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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well you did, go back and re-read, I know you probably think it sounds crazy thinking about it but thats how alot of the things you say sound...post #31


and my comment over the analysis? you claim we need help in the redzone, which is downright outlandish to say the least...we were 2nd in the NFL in td's last yr, 21 rushing and 26 receiving, yet you think an unproven rookie who hasnt played a real NFL game would help us out and make us that much better...the only team we were behind was the chargers, but hey its always room for improvement huh?

and what hogs did brees have in SD for this type of redzone scoring your referring to, that we dont have here right now? do you realize how off base that sounds? please tell me how much sidney rice would of helped our already effective scoring offense, yes he's tall, yes he can play jump ball in the endzone, but really how much better was that going to make us?

just because you fell in love with him doesnt mean he's the only player who will/was going to make an impact somewhere on our team
That's what I've tried to say, too. If you read my post you'll see we are on the same page. I think robert's argument doesn't make any sense.
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Old 09-05-2007, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I would be all for Spears moving to NT, since he has shown nothing since getting drafted.

And sorry, bro....

Elam is not better at anything football related than Roy Williams.

I dont want to get into the middle of anyone's feud...but I can not think of anyone that I would consider football savy that would agree with Elam being better than Roy.

Not one.
In coverage. Elam is better in coverage. That was about all I said on this issue bro.

Maybe I say this b/c Roy is so damn bad and not that Elam is so damn good.

Example, Stalin was nicer than Adolph Hitler..... c what I sayin bro'
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Old 09-05-2007, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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You kidding, right? Brees didn't have Jackson, Jackson caught 3 passes (and 0 TD's) while Brees was in San Diego. Gates is 6-4 while Witten is 6-5. Brees had McCardell (6-1) and Eric Parker (6-0). I don't know how you get this "Brees had the horses for this play in San Diego".
The fact is, last year Romo and our offense were very good in the redzone. The only times Romo made mistakes in the endzone was because he tried to do too much.
Last year we scored 425 points (4th in the NFL and behind only San Diego, Chicago and Indianapolis), we scored 26 TD's through the air (5th in the NFL), even with Bledsoe starting the first games of the season.
But still you think that Romo's height combined with his realease etc it's a problem in the redzone and we need a Sidney Rice type of receiver.
Looking at last year, this is simply not true. Even if your right about Romo, we still did't have problems scoring. We don't need to improve our scoring, we were one of the best team in scoring last year, and Romo was in his first season as a starter.
Romo doesn't need that type of receiver, he didn't have that type of receiver last year. Your argument could make sense if he had troubles finding his men in the endzone, or if our team had troubles trying to score. But we were one of the better team in scoring, both through the ground and throug the air.
And TO is money in the redzone, he is so physical that is very hard for a DB to not allow him to make a catch in the corner of the endzone. I think this is the play you call "alley oop pass", and TO was very effective for all his career in this type of passes.
Okay, you win.

We don't need better red zone WR to help Romo become better. Sidney Rice is not very good and any other WR in the 2008 draft will do. Stanback is great. We have the best red zone offense in the NFL. Barber is the best RB inside the 5 yard line. TO is the best. Witten is the best. Our OL is best. Tony is the next Joe Montana.

Let us talk at the end of the season. Results usually help validate my forecasts.

OT, all this writing over the obvious is starting to irritate me, just one homer after another not looking at how we can get better but talking up the team and how great it is. Insufferable optimism.

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Old 09-05-2007, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Okay, you win. We don't need better red zone WR to help Romo become better.

We have the best red zone offense. barber is the best, TO is the best, Witten is the best, our OL is best, and Tony is the next Joe Montana.

Let us talk at the end of the season. Results usually help validate my forecasts.

OT, all this writing over the obvious is starting to irritate me, just one homer after another not looking at how we can get better but talking up the team and how great it is.
And this reply just showed me that you're a baby.
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