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Old 01-04-2009, 09:23 PM    (permalink
Flippityskip91
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I've been reading all the same stuff. I don't know all too much about Kokinis, just some brief bio skimming, but I like Mangini...and that harmony you mentioned would've likely saved us a lot of trouble last time around.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Personally I think we are in for a long overhaul before we are a winning team again. Lerner simply is an owner who interfers with the football side of the organization and that rarely makes for a successful franchise. He looks to me like an owner who is too concerned with pleasing the fans and not enough concerned with building a franchise the right way.
He hired Crennel before he hired Savage and yet he fired Savage because Crennel failed to deliver. That makes no sense to me and now I hear the rumor that he might take it upon himself to hire the next HC instead of leaving it to his new GM. More and more I see an owner who cannot stay out of team's decision making and who thinks he can throw money at the situation and everything will turnout fine, hence the Cowher attempt.
I'm getting this gut feeling that this team is going nowhere for the time being and maybe for a long time. The simple fact is, owners like Lerner rarely produce winning franchises and we are stuck with him.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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With how the NFL works I think we'll win 10 games again next season. We have a lot of talent on offense and an easy schedule next year, I think with a small tweaking on O that we'll have a great unit there again next year with Quinn at the helm this time.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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Looks like Lerner's trying to pass the time by looking busy. He'll be interviewing Tom Heckert according to the Plain Dealer...although whoever wrote it said they didn't know when it would happen.

I'm definitely more familiar with Heckert than Kokinis...and I would feel better with his experience running the personnel department. Any thoughts?
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Looks like Lerner's trying to pass the time by looking busy. He'll be interviewing Tom Heckert according to the Plain Dealer...although whoever wrote it said they didn't know when it would happen.

I'm definitely more familiar with Heckert than Kokinis...and I would feel better with his experience running the personnel department. Any thoughts?
Heckert doesn't make the call Andy Reid does and I don't like that because that means no one knows how good he is at evaluating talent that translates to the pros.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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Heckert doesn't make the call Andy Reid does and I don't like that because that means no one knows how good he is at evaluating talent that translates to the pros.
Well Reid may make the final call, but Heckert still manages the personnel department...which is more than can be said for Kokinis. Neither of them are sure things as they've never been the guy who makes the final choice.

However if I were going to pick between them I would be leaning toward Heckert as he has held a bigger responsibility than Kokinis. I have been wanting them to interview Floyd Reese for a while now, but that doesn't seem likely. Odds are Mangini becomes coach, Kokinis is the GM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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As usual Lerner decides who will be his HC without waiting for the new GM to pick his own man. I'll say it again, this is not the way to build a franchise. What does Lerner know about hiring football people, nothing and this team will continue to flounder under his leadership.
Owners are suppost to hire solid GM's who in turn have the ability to find great HC's. The only 2 owners I know who pick their own HC is Al Davis in Oakland and Jerry Jones in Dallas and last I looked neither of them made the playoffs for awhile.
It raises again the strong possibility that our GM and HC won't be on the same page. Lerner thinks he can himself solve all our problems by throwing money at it, but IMO, this is a road to disaster.
I could see another 4 to 6 win season. This organization is on shaky ground with "I know what is best owner'. He doesn't believe in the people he hires and has no faith in their decisions. As I said previously, this is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, I think having the GM first is the proper way, but in all likelihood it's going to be Kokinis. So we're still going to have the two on the same page as the two want to work with each other.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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As usual Lerner decides who will be his HC without waiting for the new GM to pick his own man. I'll say it again, this is not the way to build a franchise. What does Lerner know about hiring football people, nothing and this team will continue to flounder under his leadership.
Owners are suppost to hire solid GM's who in turn have the ability to find great HC's. The only 2 owners I know who pick their own HC is Al Davis in Oakland and Jerry Jones in Dallas and last I looked neither of them made the playoffs for awhile.
It raises again the strong possibility that our GM and HC won't be on the same page. Lerner thinks he can himself solve all our problems by throwing money at it, but IMO, this is a road to disaster.
I could see another 4 to 6 win season. This organization is on shaky ground with "I know what is best owner'. He doesn't believe in the people he hires and has no faith in their decisions. As I said previously, this is a recipe for disaster.
QFT!! you, my friend, could not be more right! i dont know WTF Lerner is doing, but its not good. Mangina has made one good move so far, though. Its said that Rob Ryan, the son of Buddy Ryan and twin brother of Rex Ryan, will be the DC.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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My deepest regrets
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Rob Ryan is a good football coach he need a fresh start and now he has with the Browns. I wish him the best of luck.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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If Lerner doesn't know crap about football people then how would he be able to make a good decision in hiring a GM anymore than in hiring a head coach? I don't think it matters if he hires the GM or HC first if he doesn't know how to hire a good football guy. Most teams who have success have a great coach not necessarily GM. Lots of really good teams like Philadelphia, Seattle, New England, etc. don't even have that much power invested in their general managers but have great head coaches who make most decisions. I think having a GM and HC who are on the same page is most important right now, and I know Kokinis isn't a pushover either, he's a legit rising star on the GM candidate front. We have more talent that when we last hired a new Gm and HC, so hopefully it works this time around. I really think we would've won more games if Savage and Romeo didn't have such disconnect.

Rob Ryan = next guy to leave Oakland and resurrect his career :)
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:17 AM    (permalink
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If Lerner doesn't know crap about football people then how would he be able to make a good decision in hiring a GM anymore than in hiring a head coach? I don't think it matters if he hires the GM or HC first if he doesn't know how to hire a good football guy. Most teams who have success have a great coach not necessarily GM. Lots of really good teams like Philadelphia, Seattle, New England, etc. don't even have that much power invested in their general managers but have great head coaches who make most decisions. I think having a GM and HC who are on the same page is most important right now, and I know Kokinis isn't a pushover either, he's a legit rising star on the GM candidate front. We have more talent that when we last hired a new Gm and HC, so hopefully it works this time around. I really think we would've won more games if Savage and Romeo didn't have such disconnect.

Rob Ryan = next guy to leave Oakland and resurrect his career :)
Well Lerner's first 2 hires as a GM were terrible flops from the Butch Davis era. He seemed to have made a far better choice in Savage but didn't have the patience to see it through in my opinion. Even then he hired Crennel without consulting Savage and the wheels were set in motion for discontent down the road. Lerner didn't learn from his mistakes, instead he repeats the same process that brought Savage and Crennel on board.
Lerner's message is clear, win at all costs or I'll fire you if you have an off season. Does anybody here realize what that does to the new GM. His experience may tell him to draft a certain player who he believes can be a stud down the road and become a real impact player but it may take 3 years before that happens or does he just draft an average player who will start and maybe provide you with an extra win a year but will never be the impact player who can lead you to a SB. If I'm the new GM looking at Lerner's past actions, I probably realize I have to win now and draft the mundane player over a guy with high potential. What good is a player to a GM who is on the hot seat needing to produce now or else.
Lerner has set this franchise up to be a loser IMO. I'm predicting a complete disaster for this franchise. There will be no move forward especially now that we have 2 new men who owe their loyalty to Lerner alone. They won't be on the same page and building a championship team under these conditions just isn't going to happen. In fact I'm beginning to see some WCF in Lerner's methods and I could see us having a 50 year run at mediocrity similar to Detroit's. That is what happens when your owner is clueless about how to build an organization.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:50 AM    (permalink
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I'm not so pessimistic, I think the difference here is that Kokinis and Mangini want to work together. Crennel and Savage didn't have that. I know that Mangini had a GM in NY that he was personal friends with and that it spoiled, but at the same time, Mangini took the fall for Favre and company blowing the end of the year. Savage/Crennel had 4 years to put the team together and supposedly there was a 5 year plan, the team regressed with inflated stats the year earlier, the toughest schedule in the NFL, and of course injuries caused this season to be a disaster and I agree that Crennel took the fall for it. If we're just going off of how things went the first time around, then Kokinis and Mangini will have at least 4 years to produce a winning product with much more talent than that last regime did.

I like Mangini and Kokinis sounds like another Savage clone, a GM star in the making that will have full control but the difference is Kokinis and Mangini want to work together. Maybe this time around a gm will listen to the Head Coach and draft players that fits the system [Bell? Jackson? Wimbley over Ngata when you know a NT is the anchor for a 3-4?] and go grab some veterans like the HC requests [Crennel wanted to grab Law, and other veterns as stop gaps for a season or two and Savage decided otherwise].
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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I like Mangini and Kokinis sounds like another Savage clone, a GM star in the making that will have full control but the difference is Kokinis and Mangini want to work together. Maybe this time around a gm will listen to the Head Coach and draft players that fits the system [Bell? Jackson? Wimbley over Ngata when you know a NT is the anchor for a 3-4?] and go grab some veterans like the HC requests [Crennel wanted to grab Law, and other veterns as stop gaps for a season or two and Savage decided otherwise].[/quote]

Here I have to disagree with you completely. The GM using his scouting department makes decisions on acquiring new talent. The HC uses that talent to win. Few winning franchises give their HC's any more than a superficial input into the draft or acquiring FA's. Having both jobs generally results in a disaster. It destroyed Shanahan in Denver and Nolan in San Fran and Butch Davis here.
Few solid GM's ever give their HC's input into player acquisitions other than requesting a wish list which may or may not be obtainable.
Savage had every right to turn down Crennel's requests for certain players if he felt it would destroy his overall plan for the team. That was solid management and not a weakness. HC's have short term plans because they know the weaknesses on their team. They consistently draft for need over talent to fill immediate holes and as Shanahan found out, it turned out to be a disaster to his once successful franchise.
Savage was fired because Lerner has no patience and wants to win now not later. He knows it will please the foolish fans who always think their team is better than it actually is. It will continue the sellouts of tickets and keep his fan base happy. However a quick look at the NFL and you don't find owners choosing their HC, that is left to their GM and the HC should control the hiring of his assistant coaches.
I'll say it again, since Lerner hired both Mangini and our new GM, they both will owe their careers to Lerner. What if our new GM doesn't believe in Mangini after 1 season, is he free to fire him, you had better believe under Lerner he won't have that power. He is stuck with Mangini until Lerner decides to fire him, really our GM has little say in the process.
This just isn't how successful franchises are run. Successful franchises have a chain of command that is respected throughout their organization. This chain of command doesn't exist in Cleveland. Everybody is forced to go through Lerner and this stagnates organizations. People who work for the Browns will now know that if you are on Lerner's good side you are safe from the team's GM and this inevitably leads to taking sides within an organization and the results are seen every year by the weaker teams in the NFL.
Lerner simply doesn't learn by his mistakes, he follows the same pattern every time he hires someone and it is a pattern that simply cannot work.
I think we are looking at the demise of the football fortunes for Cleveland. If this is how Lerner intends to operate, this team is going no where fast.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde..._skeptics.html

This is a link to an article that made me feel much better about Kokonis
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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http://www.cleveland.com/browns/inde..._skeptics.html

This is a link to an article that made me feel much better about Kokonis
According to NFL Network, Mangini will call all the shots for Cleveland and our GM will have only minimal power. Gee wiz, we are back to the Butch Davis era.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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That means Kokinis won't be the GM, he can only leave with full authority.
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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Whether or not they give Kokinis full power, the decisions on personnel are all gonna go through Mangini and Kokinis both. Mangini doesn't have the same power Davis had, Davis was double timing and didn't put his full effort into being the GM like Kokinis will.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Whether or not they give Kokinis full power, the decisions on personnel are all gonna go through Mangini and Kokinis both. Mangini doesn't have the same power Davis had, Davis was double timing and didn't put his full effort into being the GM like Kokinis will.
I don't know if it is true or not but NFL Network said Mangini has full power over personnel and that is why he was hired first. Apparantly, our new GM will just handle the things Mangini cannot take care of and the business side of the job.
I tend to believe it is true because Lerner tried it before but only time will tell.
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Old 01-11-2009, 03:56 AM    (permalink
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As unlikely as I think it is, the Canton Repository printed an article about Pioli still being in the GM race.

http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/brow...-Browns-GM-yet
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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Don't know if anyone else has read it yet, but the ravens are blocking us from Kokinis again. The interview was supposed to be yesterday but they can do that as long as they're in the playoffs.

I'm hoping that Lerner hatches a brain wave and at least interviews a few other people this week. There are some decent options who have had success before.

I think in the Plain Dealer a few days ago they mentioned that we had "expressed interest" in Charlie Casserly(everyone here knows who he is) and Chris Polian(Bill Polian's son).
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Kokinis interviewed with the Browns yesterday, but we can't hire him until they lose. Just like the Romeo Crennel situation in 2005, we interviewed him during the playoffs, but he didn't get offered the job until right after the Patriots won the superbowl. So when Baltimore loses (to pittsburgh hopefully) look for the hiring soon thereafter.

BTW the only way I might root for Baltimore to win the superbowl is if Flacco gets hurt and Troy Smith is the starting QB. Even then I probably might not want them to win.
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
BTW the only way I might root for Baltimore to win the superbowl is if Flacco gets hurt and Troy Smith is the starting QB. Even then I probably might not want them to win.
Go Cardinals
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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I'll be rooting for the Eagles for one reason. Mcnabb takes way too much crap all the time and he deserves a championship.

Anyways, I read about the interview a couple minutes ago. And you are correct, I would be expecting him to be hired pretty much as soon as Baltimore loses.
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