Cleveland Browns General Discussion - Page 81

Thumper · 04-02-2010, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

I looked in on Gocong in 08 and can say he's about as good as Wimbley. Kam plays the run better but I'll wager Chris will be a better rusher and overall athlete in space-a better tackler.

Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

keylime_5 · 04-02-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morton

Say Sheldon Brown plays well for, um, 3 years. That is being incredibly optimistic.

The Browns are still not going to make the playoffs in a division with the Ravens and Steelers in that timeframe if they are starting Jake Delhomme and Seneca Wallace. Even IF they draft a quarterback in 2010, it's going to be another 2 years minimum before he can develop into a playoff caliber player.

So basically speaking, Sheldon Brown will be cut long before he even has a chance to play in another playoff game.

yeah, what's the point in brining in good veteran players, we should only bring in young guys or ****** veterans b/c we won't be good in a long time.

the way our defense played at the end of last year and how good our run game was on offense (you know we won 4 in a row to finish the year after starting 1-11), and considering we upgraded at QB, OL, TE, LB, and now CB if we bring in an impact player or two via the draft then we have a chance to be good. No one thought Cincinnati was gonna win the division last year after being the worst team in the AFC North in 2008, everyone thought the Dolphins were a good three years away from a winning season after going 1-15 in 2007, yet they went to the playoffs in 2008 after winning a division title. It's the NFL, teams can get good or bad overnight. You can't build your roster assuming that you are going to be terrible and that you're years away from success.

thank you for coming into my forum though, we always welcome fans of other teams here and their input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

you know this already, but for those who don't Mangini and Heckert really love Gocong and think he'll do better in our system. He'll compete with David Bowens and Marcus Benard for playing time and a starting spot even at LOLB this year. We'll be good there either way. Gocong needed a fresh start in a new system, there's more hope that he'll have success for us than there was for Alex Hall to make an impact.

Brown Leader · 04-02-2010, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

Gocong is a terrible blitzer and he isn't good in coverage, his best asset is his ability to stop the run. He has no pass rush moves, no technique, no first step and he can't disengage once an offensive lineman gets his hands on him. Gocong is garbage, I'm telling you guys, he sucks.

Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

Edit-His best asset is playing the run yet he can't disengage from blocks? Sounds like he was filling lanes then? Penetrating-I'm assuming this was at or behind los?

wonderbredd24 · 04-02-2010, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

He was benched 11 games into the season

Thumper · 04-02-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

Wow. I thought I remember him flying up-field play after play? Out of control, but I felt he was disruptive. He was a starter right? sounds like your talking about Hall.

Edit-His best asset is playing the run yet he can't disengage from blocks? Sounds like he was filling lanes then? Penetrating-I'm assuming this was at or behind los?

He is at his best when he is filling the lanes, that is right, if you want to see Gocong's ceiling pop in the playoff games against the Giants and Vikings where he was really good at stuffing the run. If you want to see how terrible he is, just pop in any game this season. He is big and strong with limited range but he is good at standing up offensive lineman and filling gaps, that is why his tackle numbers are always low. Gocong is anything but disruptive. If he had anything symbolizing instincts I would say he would be a good TED linebacker, but he completely sucked at MLB for the Eagles, the Chargers ran up the middle all day.

And Gocong was benched in favor of Moses Fokou, a 7th round draft pick who is really raw.

Brown Leader · 04-02-2010, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thumper

He is at his best when he is filling the lanes, that is right, if you want to see Gocong's ceiling pop in the playoff games against the Giants and Vikings where he was really good at stuffing the run. If you want to see how terrible he is, just pop in any game this season. He is big and strong with limited range but he is good at standing up offensive lineman and filling gaps, that is why his tackle numbers are always low. Gocong is anything but disruptive. If he had anything symbolizing instincts I would say he would be a good TED linebacker, but he completely sucked at MLB for the Eagles, the Chargers ran up the middle all day.

And Gocong was benched in favor of Moses Fokou, a 7th round draft pick who is really raw.

I'll still take him over Hall but I guess even trade.

Brown Leader · 04-02-2010, 07:21 PM

Last point-I know Gocong was benched last season but he had earned a start before that. Hall is not worthy of a start now or maby even in the near future-still raw athlete after 3 seasons. Pfw had Fokou rated as a 4-5th rd prospect whereas Marcus Bernard, who beat out Hall, was almost complete off the radar.

Morton · 04-02-2010, 09:07 PM

Here's the deal:

You only should bring in 30+ year old veterans if you are primed to make a playoff run NOW.

The Browns are a TERRIBLE team with many, many holes, and zero stability at the QB position. Adding an aging, solid CB will not matter because he will only be an starter for 3 years tops, and there is nothing to indicate a playoff caliber team within that time frame. Again, you underestimate the importance of a QB.

Unless Jake Delhomme or Seneca Wallace magically turn into Peyton Manning overnight, or they draft Jimmy Clausen and he turns into Tom Brady within the next 2 years, this move really does make zero sense because a team like the Browns with so many holes and so few chances to be a playoff team should not be trading for aging veterans, and instead should be stockpiling draft picks to rebuild their roster into a talented young core.

Morton · 04-02-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keylime_5

yeah, what's the point in brining in good veteran players, we should only bring in young guys or ****** veterans b/c we won't be good in a long time.

It only makes sense to bring in aging veterans who will play for 2-3 years if your team is good enough to take advantage of their skills within that time frame. Otherwise, a team should be building through the draft if it has alot of holes on the roster.

Quote:

the way our defense played at the end of last year and how good our run game was on offense (you know we won 4 in a row to finish the year after starting 1-11), and considering we upgraded at QB, OL, TE, LB, and now CB if we bring in an impact player or two via the draft then we have a chance to be good. No one thought Cincinnati was gonna win the division last year after being the worst team in the AFC North in 2008, everyone thought the Dolphins were a good three years away from a winning season after going 1-15 in 2007, yet they went to the playoffs in 2008 after winning a division title. It's the NFL, teams can get good or bad overnight. You can't build your roster assuming that you are going to be terrible and that you're years away from success.

Newsflash: you need a solid QB to win in the NFL.

2009 Cincinatti: Carson Palmer
2008 Miami: Chad Pennington

Jake Delhomme is toast. He never was a great QB, but now he throws more interceptions than completions. Seneca Wallace is a career backup QB.

The Browns are going nowhere until they get a franchise QB. And if they draft one in 2010 (which is highly likely), it will take at least 2 years to fully develop into a starter. Again, by that time, Sheldon Brown will be gone.

So this deal, actually, was pretty pointless for the Browns. The Eagles didn't fleece them, but a bad team like the Browns could really use all of the draft picks it can get its hands on and shouldn't be trading them away for old veterans who won't be around for too long.

The only thing that will salvage this deal for the Browns is if Gocong turns into a great rush OLB who you can build a defense around for the next 5+ years, but I don't really see that happening.

keylime_5 · 04-02-2010, 09:13 PM

if you can get a 31 year old pro bowl corner (who becomes the best player in your secondary immediately) and a potential starting OLB for a 4th and 5th round pick you make that trade...especially if your secondary is as bad as our's is. You don't bulid a team by neglecting good veteran players. Having Brown here to start and form a very good duo with Eric Wright while we develop a young rookie corner (say a 3rd round pick for instance) then that is better than throwing him into the fire right away and having to go through growing pains. You act like we have something to lose by acquiring Brown. A midround pick, so what, we have 3 3rds and 3 5ths. Very good deal.

Morton · 04-02-2010, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keylime_5

if you can get a 31 year old pro bowl corner (who becomes the best player in your secondary immediately) and a potential starting OLB for a 4th and 5th round pick you make that trade...especially if your secondary is as bad as our's is. You don't bulid a team by neglecting good veteran players. Having Brown here to start and form a very good duo with Eric Wright while we develop a young rookie corner (say a 3rd round pick for instance) then that is better than throwing him into the fire right away and having to go through growing pains. You act like we have something to lose by acquiring Brown. A midround pick, so what? Very good deal.

Any and all picks that you can keep, even if they are in the 4th and 5th rounds, are valuable to a team as bad as the Browns that needs as many young players as it can get its hands on.

You fail to understand that getting a 31 year old CB is simply pointless. He's going to be off the roster before the Browns can make a potential playoff run. It's just a complete waste, unless they can magically get a solid quarterback within the next 2 years.

keylime_5 · 04-02-2010, 09:24 PM

yeah, bringing in a good veteran leader who can solidify our secondary even if for a few years is totally worthless if there's no way you can win a title in that time. If we can get Charles Woodson for a mid round pick we should turn it down b/c of the small chance that that player becomes something worthwhile. We have 10 picks after having 12 before the trade, we can afford to bring in a veteran pro bowler or two.

We're the freakin' browns anyway, we need to have as many winning seasons as we can even if we don't get to the playoffs just to get out of the dumpster of the NFL and we aren't gonna do that by not improving the talent on our roster.

Morton · 04-02-2010, 09:37 PM

I guarantee you the Browns will not have a winning season for the next 3 years, minimum.

Enjoy your suckitude.

keylime_5 · 04-02-2010, 09:39 PM

that means a lot to us coming from what looks like the #1 browns hater on the board. we managed a 10-6 record in 2007, I'm sure we'll be a decent franchise again now that we have real NFL people running the team in Holmgren and Heckert. Brown is beautiful and deep down you know it :)

PickedOffTwice · 04-03-2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morton

Any and all picks that you can keep, even if they are in the 4th and 5th rounds, are valuable to a team as bad as the Browns that needs as many young players as it can get its hands on.

You fail to understand that getting a 31 year old CB is simply pointless. He's going to be off the roster before the Browns can make a potential playoff run. It's just a complete waste, unless they can magically get a solid quarterback within the next 2 years.

So it's pointless to try to upgrade your team and put them in the best spot possible for the next season? With the only exception that you can make a "playoff run", aka see a chance to win it all?

No point in trying to win as many games as possible, EXCEPT for the few superbowl contenders.

about 25 teams should just give it up then. What's the point anyway?

keylime_5 · 04-03-2010, 10:24 AM

just an informative look at Holmgren's QB history, especially in regards to the draft. Notice that all the QBs he's ever picked were in round 3 or later, and that almost all of the ones who found success were taken in round 5 or 6 or so.

QBs drafted by Mike Holmgren with Green Bay Packers:

Ty Detmer-1992-RD 9
Mark Brunell-1993-RD 5
Jay Barker-1995-RD 5
Kyle Wachholtz-1996-RD 7
Matt Hasselbeck-1998-RD 6

QBs drafted by Mike Holmgren with Seattle Seahawks:

Brock Huard-1999-RD 3
Josh Booty-2001-RD 6
Jeff Kelly-2002-RD 7
Seneca Wallace-2003-RD 4
David Greene-2005-RD 3

Other QBs tutored by Holmgren in Green Bay, Seattle, as the 49ers' OC/QB coach, or at BYU:

Brett Favre
Steve Young
John Paye
Joe Montana

BJJ3rd · 04-03-2010, 01:40 PM

Hey guys,

Just a quick question for you...

With the recent trade you guys completed, do you still see Haden as a possibility at 7 for the Browns? I mean of course its a possibility as anything is possible, but do you think its all that likely??

Thanks

wonderbredd24 · 04-03-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BJJ3rd

Hey guys,

Just a quick question for you...

With the recent trade you guys completed, do you still see Haden as a possibility at 7 for the Browns? I mean of course its a possibility as anything is possible, but do you think its all that likely??

Thanks

Absolutely still possible. I think Berry is the preference, but Haden or JPP or trading down would be the next set of choices

BJJ3rd · 04-03-2010, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderbredd24

Absolutely still possible. I think Berry is the preference, but Haden or JPP or trading down would be the next set of choices

alright thanks for the quick response.

as a steelers fan, i'm just hoping he slides within range that we could maybe trade up. haha unrealistic but i can dream. but yeah thank you.

keylime_5 · 04-03-2010, 02:54 PM

Haden definitely still in play. I think it's more likely we take a DB (Berry or Haden) than anything else at #7.

BJJ3rd · 04-03-2010, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keylime_5

Haden definitely still in play. I think it's more likely we take a DB (Berry or Haden) than anything else at #7.

thanks for the help

Brown Leader · 04-03-2010, 04:48 PM

I disagree. Haden is no longer in play. Draft is deep with good CB prospects.

Safety is the #1 need for sure. Berry or Thomas is a strong possibility, then I'd say WR-Bryant then OL/DL, then LB.

JPP? He's a risky top ten but even more so as a OLB. Loving the possibility of a trade down, but who would want to come to #7 and for who? Guess this ought to go in the draft thread.

wonderbredd24 · 04-03-2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Leader

I disagree. Haden is no longer in play. Draft is deep with good CB prospects.

Safety is the #1 need for sure. Berry or Thomas is a strong possibility, then I'd say WR-Bryant then OL/DL, then LB.

JPP? He's a risky top ten but even more so as a OLB. Loving the possibility of a trade down, but who would want to come to #7 and for who? Guess this ought to go in the draft thread.

You think this front office is going to take Dez Bryant? The guy is a moron, he needs a handler, and he still couldn't remember something as simple as his cleats.

I will be pissed if we take that ******, no matter how talented he might be.

keylime_5 · 04-03-2010, 07:47 PM

I think we take whoever is sitting on top of our draft board when we are on the clock (assuming we don't make a trade), which I think will be either Berry or Haden. I suppose a guy like Spiller or Williams could be that guy, but the positional value would be bad.

Brown Leader · 04-04-2010, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderbredd24

You think this front office is going to take Dez Bryant? The guy is a moron, he needs a handler, and he still couldn't remember something as simple as his cleats.

I will be pissed if we take that ******, no matter how talented he might be.

Yeah he'll def need a strong vet who can take him under his wing....we don't have that. But I don't doubt that Holmgren likes him.