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Old 03-26-2013, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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For example, letís assume the Chiefs draft Joeckel. The Jaguars draft Geno. The Raiders draft Ansah. The Eagles draft Jordan. The Lions draft Milliner. The Browns are on the clock. The phone isnít ringing. Whose name is on the card?
If that happens you should likely have callers trying to grab Shariff Floyd no? I like your premise with Warmack and that line, that would be a studly line and why not build around Trent anyway until you get your QB.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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I've heard over and over that in this draft, the #5 pick has the same value that the #25 has, if true, I don't think you can pin down our pick, we could go in many directions and still get value. Just because mocks have settled into a pattern doesn't make it so. I think we have a lot of options, hopefully, we make the right choice.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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If that happens you should likely have callers trying to grab Shariff Floyd no? I like your premise with Warmack and that line, that would be a studly line and why not build around Trent anyway until you get your QB.
That's like going backwards in time. Draft a RB top 5 then compound that by taking a OG at #6 to build around him.

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Yeah I agree the offense needs talent and attention from the front office in a bad way compared to the defense, but really we are pretty young and have some talented pieces in place offensively. If there is a great TE or WR sitting there we should grab him, but at 6 the value isn't there. We would have to trade down to improve the offense and get good value - and considering the talent at 6 is about the same as the talent at 20, it's not gonna be easy to move down. We have Gordon, Little, Benjamin, Richardson, Cameron as some very young, very high upside, unproven skill position players. Really I think the only thing we really need badly offensively is a QB. If we had an elite QB our young skill players would look a lot better than they will if we have Weeden out there.

So if we're not gonna find a franchise QB at 6 (doubtful) then we best go BPA and that is probably Milliner or another front seven defender.
I think we'll see positional value is different now with the new CBA. It's more about how teams grade a guy and what's the best fit. I'm warming up more and more to Eifert with our first pick. Our pursuit of Fred Davis and interest in Cook points to how high they value the position and what they think of Cameron as a starter.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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[quote=Brown Leader;3313051]That's like going backwards in time. Draft a RB top 5 then compound that by taking a OG at #6 to build around him.

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Yeah, but they could consider that most team's defenses are built today to stop the pass and an excellent running attack just might have great success taking a lot of pressure off of Weeden. It would be interesting to see if it would work.]QUOTE]



I think we'll see positional value is different now with the new CBA. It's more about how teams grade a guy and what's the best fit. I'm warming up more and more to Eifert with our first pick. Our pursuit of Fred Davis and interest in Cook points to how high they value the position and what they think of Cameron as a starter.
However, the TE position in this year's draft is pretty deep in talent, so waiting a round or 2 might be advisable.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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I've heard over and over that in this draft, the #5 pick has the same value that the #25 has, if true, I don't think you can pin down our pick, we could go in many directions and still get value. Just because mocks have settled into a pattern doesn't make it so. I think we have a lot of options, hopefully, we make the right choice.
What's the right choice...?

I think Geno's a solid option.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Eifert is a nice prospect, but I don't think he's the class of tight end that warrants that high of a pick. The CBA is one thing, but taking a tight end - who doesn't exactly profile as a Jimmy Graham or Rob Gronkowski or Tony Gonzalez type elite playmaker who is basically a WR in a power forward's body - at #6 over good players at premium positions isn't a good idea. Get the high upside pass rusher who might be the next Aldon Smith or Jason Pierre-Paul with Jordan/Ansah, or get the top cornerback talent. Don't pigeonhole for need.

I agree with what Canadian says about our options being more open than people think. This is a year I could see some surprise picks all over the top 10/top 15. Kenny Vaccaro, Tyler Eifert, Tavon Austin, Sheldon Richardson, Barkevious Mingo - guys like that could shoot way up who knows?
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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I've heard over and over that in this draft, the #5 pick has the same value that the #25 has, if true, I don't think you can pin down our pick, we could go in many directions and still get value. Just because mocks have settled into a pattern doesn't make it so. I think we have a lot of options, hopefully, we make the right choice.
Bingo.

There are less than five prospects worth a top ten grade in the colloquial sense. The Browns are sitting at sixth. Itís an unenviable situation, but it is what it is. In all likelihood, when Cleveland gets put on the clock, weíre looking at a board of mid-first talent. In general, would I draft an offensive guard in the top ten? No, I wouldnít. But, in this particular draft for this particular team in this particular situation, I wouldnít dismiss it on principle alone. Itís not like we would be passing on an elite corner for an elite guard. We would be passing on a second-tier corner for an elite guard. And guard is an area of the team thatís primed for an upgrade.

Norvís brand of formation variation and versatile game-calling is what separates him from most offensive coordinators. Yes, heís been most successful with Dallas (Aikman) and San Diego (Rivers), but thereís a common thread between those two stops that isnít a quarterback. Both teams had foundational running games. Emmitt Smith was as good of a grinder as the NFL has ever seen. LaDainian Tomlinson was a well-rounded, All-Pro runner in his own right.

Norv will pass from run formations, run from pass formations, implement the same design across dozens of formations, and implement dozens of different designs within the same formation. A strong ground game is an asset to accomplishing those things. We can argue whether Richardson shouldíve been a top five pick or whether a guard should be a top ten pick, but both improve the offense. And widen windows for Weeden.

In the end, I wouldnít rule out a direction. If the staff loves Geno, itís impossible to argue the value of a quarterback. I wouldnít dump a project like Cordarrelle Patterson on first-time receiver coach Scott Turner, but his raw talent is evident. Keenan Allen is a smooth complement opposite Josh Gordon. Tavon Austin brings a ton of explosiveness and after-the-catch danger. Eifert shows big-time NFL talent and could be a true weapon for the offense. Chance Warmack is an enticing piece that could complete the best left side in the league. Dion Jordan is a versatile defender that a creative coordinator like Horton could use. Xavier Rhodes, Desmond Trufant, and even Dee Milliner (with some work) all profile as good number twos to Haden and address the biggest need. Thatís ten possibilities in the first that can impact the team.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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I'm definitely of the philosophy for upside. At 6, in any draft in today's NFL, you do not take a guard. You can find guys like Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, and Marshal Yanda in the middle rounds a LOT easier than you can find guys with the potential to be big time pass rushers or cover corners or quarterbacks, etc. We should take a shot at a high upside guy like Milliner, Jordan, Ansah, even Smith or Patterson or Austin over any guard. It's not like we're hurting on the Oline anyways, we have 3 really good Olinemen, we can put the finishing touches by finding a good guard elsewhere. I can't describe how stupid we would be for spending a top 6 pick on an OG a year after spending a top 3 pick and some change on a RB. This isn't 1965.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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I've been saying Austin for a while. They want to surround Weeden/QBx with talent. Austin is the best slot WR prospect... ever.

I personally think he's the best non-lineman in the draft.
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Old 03-27-2013, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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I'm definitely of the philosophy for upside. At 6, in any draft in today's NFL, you do not take a guard. You can find guys like Jahri Evans, Carl Nicks, and Marshal Yanda in the middle rounds a LOT easier than you can find guys with the potential to be big time pass rushers or cover corners or quarterbacks, etc. We should take a shot at a high upside guy like Milliner, Jordan, Ansah, even Smith or Patterson or Austin over any guard. It's not like we're hurting on the Oline anyways, we have 3 really good Olinemen, we can put the finishing touches by finding a good guard elsewhere. I can't describe how stupid we would be for spending a top 6 pick on an OG a year after spending a top 3 pick and some change on a RB. This isn't 1965.
Myself, I like Jordan if he is still there at #6. I see a lot of upside in his game and the potential to be a real star. However, I think they just might consider one of the OG's if they are determined to run the ball as the main feature of our offense. Yes, you can find great OG's later in the draft but teams often say, why not take the one you know is the best just like they do with RB's where 3 went round 1 last year.
Milliner is the last one I'd take as I think he will be solid but IMO, offense is our trouble spot not defense and I'd like to see more offense drafted.
I wouldn't touch Austin before picks 21-32, just too high an injury factor given his height and weight.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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I would take a guard in round one if he's as good as Warmack, just no where near #6 overall. That is a waste of value. You can get an all pro guard in round 2 or mid-late round one because that's where elite guard prospects go. Our offense is a trouble spot, but with Thomas-Mack-Schwartz as our young OLine foundation I'm not terrible worried about our line. We could use a power guard in there to help our running game, but our real problem is the QB and the guys catching the ball - not so much protection or the backs. Smashmouth football is more about a mindset and the numbers game in the NFL than it is about having a super stud OG.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Greg Little really started to come around during the second half of the season, Flash is awesome and Benjamin has talent which Shurmur had no idea how to utilize.

I think they could be really good, although I wouldn't be upset with Patterson and throwing Little in the slot.

In a trade down I love Warmack but like you said 6 just isn't really acceptable. If we cant swing a deal for a trade down Dion Jordan is a guy I have heavy interest in given his vast potential.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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I would take a guard in round one if he's as good as Warmack, just no where near #6 overall. That is a waste of value. You can get an all pro guard in round 2 or mid-late round one because that's where elite guard prospects go. Our offense is a trouble spot, but with Thomas-Mack-Schwartz as our young OLine foundation I'm not terrible worried about our line. We could use a power guard in there to help our running game, but our real problem is the QB and the guys catching the ball - not so much protection or the backs. Smashmouth football is more about a mindset and the numbers game in the NFL than it is about having a super stud OG.
Normally, I would completely agree that an OG at #6 is way too high but if the team is determined to run the ball as the main feature of our offense, then taking a stud OG just isn't out of the equation IMO. The team has to go with what will help the team win and if that is a great OL, so be it, after all, it won't hurt the passing attack either.
If Warmack or Cooper are as good as advertised then our OL will serve many purposes, allow the running attack to succeed which in its way, allows the defense to get a lot of rest thereby improving its overall performance, and assisting a weak passing game by giving Weeden superb protection.
There is a lot to say for drafting a real stud at OG. Of course trading back and then picking an OG is even better plus adding another pick or 2 would be great.
IMO, if our offense uses the run to control the game clock an awful lot of possibilities open up for our team and I just don't see any other scenario where another pick will have that effect. Having the odd ball team that wins through the run, just might prove successful against a league where team defenses are designed to stop the pass, it just might prove successful.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Just saying, drafting a stud CB or stud OLB will go a LOT farther in helping this team win than wasting a high pick on an OG. You can find pro bowl CBs and pass rushers in the first round early but rarely ever later in the draft unless you get super lucky. Quality starting OGs come out of the middle rounds every year. Play the percentages. Never EVER pass on a top 10 pick caliber cornerback for a guard when you have a huge giant gaping hole at cornerback like we do (yet 3 decent enough guards).
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Old 04-02-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Just saying, drafting a stud CB or stud OLB will go a LOT farther in helping this team win than wasting a high pick on an OG. You can find pro bowl CBs and pass rushers in the first round early but rarely ever later in the draft unless you get super lucky. Quality starting OGs come out of the middle rounds every year. Play the percentages. Never EVER pass on a top 10 pick caliber cornerback for a guard when you have a huge giant gaping hole at cornerback like we do (yet 3 decent enough guards).
Yeah, but offense is our Achilles heal, we cannot score and certainly don't scare anybody with it. Our defense, even after being on the field most of the game, still holds its own. Imagine if our OL was one of the best in the NFL and could control the game by running the ball, keeping our defense well rested.

If Richardson is to be our offense then why not give him the weapons to make that type of offense work. Warmack is one of the best OG's to come along in years and could be totally dominating in our offense.
Offense wins in today's NFL and it looks like our offense will be a solid running attack, so why not give it the best opportunity for success.

I agree, I doubt they do it, but the pick wouldn't be terrible in my eyes even if it is unconventional, after all, is Milliner or Jordan going to give us even 1 more win as long as our offense remains pitiful.
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Old 04-02-2013, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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I think our woes on offense have more to do with Weeden, the WRs, and even Richardson than they have to do with our OGs. With better QB play and Richardson becoming a more patient, decisive runner who doesn't dance around and uses his vision - I think the offense would be much improved. That's easier said than done, we haven't had good QB play in eons. I'm worried about our secondary and our skill positions a lot more than I am about our Oline. I could stand an upgrade at guard, but wasting the #6 pick on one is not an option.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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You could argue Richardson's tentativeness is derived from his playing a majority of the season with broken ribs.

I really don't see what's wrong with our receivers when Flash had the best rookies season, Little came around in the second half and Benjamin wasn't even utilized to his ability due to Shurmur's idiocy. It could be fine, I wouldn't mind Patterson or Allen I guess.

I agree our secondary outside of Haden flat out blows. I wont accept the claim Ward is good because he isn't. it's probably Milliner, Jordan or Geno Smith.
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Old 04-03-2013, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Well, I think Milliner will be our pick as Jordan is likely gone by #6 and IMO, Geo Smith wouldn't be much of an improvement over Weeden. There has to be a reason why so many of the QB hungrey teams went in a different direction, signing veterans vs drafting Smith, and I'd say Smith just isn't a top 10 talent, so I don't want to think we will use the #6 pick on him.

But, unlike Keylime, it wouldn't completely shock me if we drafted one of the 2 OG's, after all, it is extremely rare that OG's get talked about in the top 10, so you know they are extra special talents and we aren't a normal NFL offense at this point and might build to our strength, knowing running the ball is the only way we are going to win games.
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Old 04-04-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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I think Richardson's tentativeness might have been due to the ribs, it probably had something to do with his rushing average being lower than expected. Either way, point is I don't think it had much to do with our OG play. I mean, Hardesty looked fine, and on the goalline we had no problem getting push for Richardson. Oline as a whole was pretty darn good last year. It's one thing to talk about taking a guard round one, it's a whole different animal talking about spending the #6 overall pick on a player who can only play offensive guard without the versatility to be a tackle.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
I think Richardson's tentativeness might have been due to the ribs, it probably had something to do with his rushing average being lower than expected. Either way, point is I don't think it had much to do with our OG play. I mean, Hardesty looked fine, and on the goalline we had no problem getting push for Richardson. Oline as a whole was pretty darn good last year. It's one thing to talk about taking a guard round one, it's a whole different animal talking about spending the #6 overall pick on a player who can only play offensive guard without the versatility to be a tackle.
I'm not really disagreeing with you as I said I doubt we will draft an OG but it would have made our OL dominating not just good, and running the ball is what we are all about.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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It certainly would be interesting to see an Oline of Thomas, Schwartz, Mack, Cooper/Warmack. Personally I like Cooper a little more, I love watching highlights of him pulling and just taking guys out - not many OGs can run like that.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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It certainly would be interesting to see an Oline of Thomas, Schwartz, Mack, Cooper/Warmack. Personally I like Cooper a little more, I love watching highlights of him pulling and just taking guys out - not many OGs can run like that.
As a side note, in the ongoing mock forum draft, Pancake took Warmack at #6 for Cleveland.
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Old 04-15-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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As we get closer and closer to the draft, I get the feeling more and more that this trade down scenario to #11 or 12 or wherever is more realistic and not just a what-if deal. I would love to recoup a 2nd rounder and get a guy of similar value (b/c all the top 20 players are about the same type of value in this draft, much like in 2009). For instance we could land Xavier Rhodes or Kenny Vaccaro or whoever at #12 and then get another good player in the top 50 picks of round 2. Matt Elam, Johnathan Banks, Kyle Long, Jonathan Cyprien, Justin Pugh, Jamar Taylor are just a few possible names who come to mind. Not to mention that is where the value is at QB in this draft (EJ Manuel and Ryan Nassib).
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Old 04-15-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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As we get closer and closer to the draft, I get the feeling more and more that this trade down scenario to #11 or 12 or wherever is more realistic and not just a what-if deal. I would love to recoup a 2nd rounder and get a guy of similar value (b/c all the top 20 players are about the same type of value in this draft, much like in 2009). For instance we could land Xavier Rhodes or Kenny Vaccaro or whoever at #12 and then get another good player in the top 50 picks of round 2. Matt Elam, Johnathan Banks, Kyle Long, Jonathan Cyprien, Justin Pugh, Jamar Taylor are just a few possible names who come to mind. Not to mention that is where the value is at QB in this draft (EJ Manuel and Ryan Nassib).
I think you are dead on about the variances in rankings. I've heard 2 different scenarios, one where the 5th pick is pretty well the same as the 25th pick and another where the 8th pick is pretty well the same as the 28th pick, so of course, everybody but his mother's uncle wants to trade back in this type of draft.

The issue is finding a trading partner who is willing to give up picks knowing that each pick in this year's top 100 is potential gold for the team securing them. If the forum mocks I have taken part in are any indication, only LT's can secure a team extra picks, no other position is as inviting. In the mocks I took part in, KC, Jacksonville, Oakland and Philadelphia are all willing to trade down with other teams so they can secure one of the 3 LT's in this year's draft which would leave Cleveland out of the loop, completely.
I really hope we are approached for one of the LT's but I'm not holding my breath, we could easily get left out of this scenario.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, we are in the honey hole for a trade down. Joeckel and Fisher will be gone by pick #5, the Cardinals at #7 need a left tackle, and we have pick #6. San Diego and Miami want a LT bad and Miami in particular has two 2nd rounders. Buffalo could use a LT too, and Arizona might move up a spot to secure their guy like we did last year with TRich. Win-win for the Browns. Lane Johnson is gonna make the Browns a pick or two richer I think come draft day.
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