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Old 12-27-2007, 06:41 PM    (permalink
regoob2
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I'm always game for a trade down but I don't see it being very likely the price to trade us is high and no one in this class is a can't miss that someone would want to trade up for.
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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The general trade scenario that I could see right now is if the OT class drops a bit and Angelo is wary of taking someone (Otah/Clady). I think Angelo would take Long in a heartbeat. Another possibility is if we are in position to nab Phillips and someone gets aggressive and moves up for him. Well, I guess there's a 3rd possibility. If the CB class doesn't start coming off until the teens, which is possible, and a team wants to nab their guy like the Jets did with Darrelle Revis last year. There might be a couple others as things develop, but for now, those are the two situations, with the rest falling under the "another team fell in love with a guy" type move, which really can't be predicted at this stage.
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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Turner will get a nice payday, but I don't see him getting this huge deal some are expecting... after all, he hasn't proven a whole lot in the NFL besides being a really good backup RB while filling in for LT...
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Crayton got a 4yr 14million deal. I think Berrian can be had for under 20
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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You make some valid points toons. I can see your concern with all of the suggestions I made. Here's my take on it.


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McNabb or Anderson will be costly. Such a move would be a win now move in many respects, despite their ages (particularly on Anderson). In McNabb's case, we'd probably have to pony up this year's first, perhaps next year's first, and another pick or two. In Anderson's case, I think they'd hold firm on this year's first at the very least. I'm just not sure we are in a position to do such a move. If the cost is less than expected, yes, I ponder a move for eithe rone. But I'm not sold it'll be.
If Philly doesn't cut McNabb..chances are they're going to ask for the barn if anyone wants to snag him. My bet is Philly wants to move in another direction. If they plan on hoarding him and allowing the highest bidder to take him then I agree with you totally. If he's cut or McNabb demands a trade with a team he feels he can win with then we may still have high chance. This is the only way i'd consider him. Anderson could very well be costly as you said. If the price is right I'd definatelly say pull the trigger on him. I'd personally rather use a 1st rnd pick on a proven qb then one in the draft. The guy is only 24yrs old and has many years of improvement. This would be a very smart choice for a qb that is 6'6 229 and has a tremendus upside. Lets not mention he's had seasoning in the pro's already. If Cleveland demands multiple picks I'd probably pass which is highly likely.

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On TE's - I wouldn't move Desmond Clark unless we got something decent. If not, I'd rather keep them. But a first 3 round pick, and I pull the trigger, I think. Even a 4th rounder I'd ponder as well. I'm not in a rush to dump Clark, but if we can get assets, I'd consider it. The staff was intrigued enough with Mines, and Mines holds some similarities to Clark at the same age (although less developed). But that's me.
Given what our receiving core has showed I wouldn't move Clark at all. Both him and Olsen have been safety nets for us. True we could get something for him but to me a 4th rnder is not worth what he gives to this team. I'd look at this no different than getting that 3rd rnder for TJ. I think it will turn around and haunt us. JMO though.

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DT - I'd like to add a DT as well. I'm just not sure we have the money so splurge on a 2nd DT like Corey Williams. Corey's going to be awfully expensive and we'll have to pay Tommie Harris soon. That's a lot of money tied up inside. It's doable, particularly if we let Ricky Manning Jr. and Lance Briggs go, but do we really spend that much? I'd much rather draft a DT than spend big on one. A cheaper guy, someone like Starks, would be fine, but in that situation, it's also arguable if the player would be an upgrade over our depth.
If Corey Williams demands major money then I'd say pass. If we can get him for a similar contract we set up for Darwin Walker then I'd say definatelly go for it. We need depth and I'm not sold on guys who cannot stay healthy (a.k.a. Dvoracek who plays great as long as he's not on the sidelines.) The loss of Boone, Scott, and Tank have definatelly taken a toll on this group. We need solid depth here bad.

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RB - I'd rather spend big on a RB than spend big on a DT, to be honest. That said, I'm not too enthused with spending big on a RB. But the thing is, unless we go RB early (and the first is very, very unlikely), I'm not in love with the 2nd tier and later on RB's. Someone will emerge, but who and will that someone fit in the context of what we need? A lot of it depends on which juniors come out. But I'd rather pick a safety early than a RB, and if we fail to add QB, then that goes ahead in the queue. And there's OL as well.
Given the amt of money Benson makes I'd say no to that. While Dvoracek proves to be very good when healthy he hasn't proven longevity 4 2 consecutive seasons. Currently we only have 1 proven starter that can stay somewhat healthy and thats Tommie Harris. I'd personally rather spend the money (and I don't me a ton) on a DT that will start than a RB that will start while Benson kills our cap and benches yet another season when he should be casted to the wolves. lol The only way I wouldn't mind us spending money on a RB is if we give Benson the boot. (i would honestly love to see this). This is why I say looking into the draft would be the best decision because we won't have to fork out as much. There are a lot of talented Jr. RB's that could emerge in this draft. Nobody speaks of Kevin Smith. Rashard Mendenhall could also be a possibility. If many of these top end Jr. rb's decide to go pro we could have a huge group to chose from and I don't see it out of the norm to get one of them in the 2nd given all the teams that already have solid starting backs.

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S - I'm not in love with this safety class to feel comfortable about simply depending on the draft for filling our needs. I'd like to get at least on safety, if not two, in FA to bring in and compete. I like guys like Payne/McGowan/Manning, but they haven't proven enough and this draft class just doesn't impress unless we go after Phillips which.
Your love with the safety class in the draft is probably the same as my love for FA safeties that are available in FA. I don't see any quality players here..only bandaids. None of the current FA's for this position will be long term fixes. While there doesn't seem to be a ton of rookies that suit the bill I have faith in Angelo's ability to find a gem. This I can give him credit for and I'm sure he can find some top end Safeties in mid to later rnds as he has all throughout his career here. I see getting a FA Safety as a waste of cap space personally. Again, this is just my opinion.

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OL - If we land one or two OL talents, this does create the opening to go after Phillips in round 1 if we so desired. I think Gross is too costly, and I still don't love Wharton as an OT. I think Starks is still the preference here in turns of cost and ability meshing the best. Stacey Andrews may be up there as well, as he's a solid RT option. Didn't realize he'd done so well at tackle for them this year. More I think about it, if we miss on someone, I'd make an aggressive bid for David Stewart. Solid, proven young starter for a 4th rounder? I'd do it. I'd like to get beefier inside if possible, which is what makes me wary on the Colts OG's, Jacob Bell, and the ilk. Add in that, while this OG class is weak, there will be some solid starters in the middle stanzas. Don't get me wrong, if we can grab a starting OG and OT in FA, then heck yeah. If not, though, I'm fine waiting on OG until the draft. If we go, say, Brian Brohm, in round 1 (which I'd be wary of), and Max Starks in FA, someone like Mike McGlynn in the 2nd would be intriguing (granted, I'd like to trade down, as I think he's more mid-late 2nd than early). A Schuening/Felton/Radovich/Thomas in the 3rd/4th would be fine. There's some others, too lazy to think right now.
This would be a solid solution. I think its fair to say we both agree that FA and the draft is necessary for this position. I'd be estatic to get Starks and a drafted Guard. I'd also be estatic if they selected any of the others and drafted day 1 or rnd 3(at the latest) another position. Metcalf/Brown, and Fred Miller need to be replaced. Thats all it comes down to. It's apparent 2 top end players need to come to this team to address it. Both the running game and the passing game have suffered greatly from it. This is stuff you already know though so I won't kick the dead horse anymore. :)
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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Turner will get a nice payday, but I don't see him getting this huge deal some are expecting... after all, he hasn't proven a whole lot in the NFL besides being a really good backup RB while filling in for LT...
Is there anyway we can pry Chester Taylor from the Vikings? lol
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Old 12-28-2007, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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I think it's almost a guarantee that free agents will get more than we expect. It happens every single year.

I would personally rather not sign Starks. Right Tackles are easy enough to draft, and Starks has almost no ability to play on the left side (not to mention that would tie our ability to do much with Tait longterm).
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:00 AM    (permalink
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Well

1) I'm not sold that Starks can't be a passable LT for a year or two. The quality of LT play isn't all that great these days.

2) Tait's contract is up after 09-10. If we sign a RT (whether it be Andrews/Starks or someone else), we'd draft a kid to develop, either this year or next. Maybe a Rinehart in the 3rd this year is a possible look. Or Carl Nicks, although he's looking like a potential 2nd rounder. Obviously, other possibilities. The guy would get a couple years to develop, during which he could be plugged in at guard. I didn't realize Tait's contract was so close to ending, and as such, I'm more okay with drafting a RT than I was earlier in the year because the chances of a guy coming in and being better than Tait at LT in the next year or two is probably marginal (definitely slim chance for 08-09, and average chance in 09-10). The preference is still to land a LT, but we could give ourselves a lot more flexibility to simply take the best guys rather than fitting for need.

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Safeties in FA (based on draftdaddy's list) - I'm not sure that there aren't long term guys in the FA safety class. Madieu Williams has all the worlds talent. Playing in a simpler scheme may help him maximize that. Ken Hamlin could be a solid starter seeking more money. I'm not big on either of the Wilson's (Eugene or Gibril) but both have been decent-solid starters. That said, I would definitely pass on Eugene as I think he'll be way too costly for the performance. I'd consider Gibril, though. The RFA class holds some intrigue, although a lot won't be let go. I think OJ Atogwe gets a medium-high tender, so that'll strike him down. James Butler is an intriguing option. I'm not sure it makes sense for the Giants to put more than a low tender on him, but it's possible. If he's simply a low tender, I'd take a look because at that point, it would only cost money, as he was a UDFA. I have a hard time seeing the Titans put more than a low tender on Vincent Fuller, and if the price is right, I'd consider it for a 4th rounder. He has the desirable range and has shown flashes. Keeping McGowan would be nice for us. Someone like Jerome Carter or Gerald Sensabaugh is probably worth a look if the price is right, and depending on which tender they get.

RB Class - Obviously, a lot depends on which juniors come out. But if you accept the rumors and talk that's out there, Felix Jones/Kevin Smith/Steve Slaton all will stay. I'm a big fan of Kevin Smith and think he's a tad underrated. That said, he supposedly was told anywhere from the 2nd-4th this year and that led him to decide to stay. McFadden will be gone, and Mendenhall/Stewart look like potential first rounders, at best, early, early 2nd. if Jamaal Charles comes out (and rumors seem to point to him going back to school) or James Davis (rumors point to him going back to school, but with several junior RB's rumored to be staying, I wonder if he changes his mind), those are guys I'd look at in the 2nd. But there's a chance both go back to school, and then we are talking about Chris Johnson (I like him, but not really a Ron Turner fit, would Turner use him anymore than Garrett Wolfe?), Ray Rice (eh ... good back, but not in love with him to take him in the 2nd for us, which is where he'll likely go), Mike Hart (eh ... ), and a few others (Louis Rankin is a bit underrated, Matt Forte may be intriguing, Kalvin McRae could be worth a look, but all the rest are midround guys). Someone will emerge, but the pickings seem slim, depending on what the junior RB's do. Only time will tell on that front.
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Btw, not sure what I was thinking earlier when I was typing. A lot of those RFA's will get medium to high tenders. I just blanked when I looked at the draftdaddy list and was typing the other night. David Stewart is likely to at least get a first round tender, if not the first/3rd tender. I can see Elton Brown with a low tender, but I could also see them slap a medium one on. Jason Brown probably gets a 1st round tender.

Actually, Geoff Hangartner might be a low tender guy and that's something I'd look at. Was a solid starter last year, and if he's a low tender, if we can nab him for a 5th rounder (and in this case, it'd be Carolina's 5th), I'd take a look at him as an interior option.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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I could see us signing Chris Brown... we almost did this offseason...
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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I could see it too, but dang if it doesn't excite me. If I was certain he'd stay healthy, sure. But eh ... just not sold on it.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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I still have faith in Benson, but you're not sold on him... I think Brown could be a very good backup and someone to push Benson. And I think with him being in a bit of a reduced role, he can stay healthy for at least the majority of the season.
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sold on Andersen at all. The guy has some serious weapons around him. People talk like he has no talent around him.

Edwards is a superstar. Winslow is one of the more under rated players in the league. He is a huge weapon.

And the OL is a lot better than advertised. I would not shell out a first round pick for Anderson. I would happily give up the 2nd though.

Draft an OL in round 1; trade the 2nd for Anderson.
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Old 12-28-2007, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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It's not whether or not I'm sold on Benson. It's more, if Benson is hurt or struggles, will Brown be able to push him and step in? I have high doubts about that.

As for Derek Anderson, the Browns hold all the cards on that due to his RFA status. I'd be surprised if they didn't hold firm. Now ... I could see a situation where, if Crennel leaves and Savage gets to pick another coach, maybe they cave and take a 2nd this year instead of a first this year, but it would likely require high future assets, perhaps a future 1st.

That said, all speculation on my part, though.
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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If Courtney Greene comes out I wouldn't mind him in the 2nd or 3rd... either him or Josh Barrett are the best options at SS in the draft for us, IMO.
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Old 12-28-2007, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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I think this is a bad year to need a safety in the draft...
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BeerBaron View Post
I think this is a bad year to need a safety in the draft...
It's a good thing we don't need a safety in the draft
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I don't care...
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by toonsterwu View Post
I could see it too, but dang if it doesn't excite me. If I was certain he'd stay healthy, sure. But eh ... just not sold on it.
I've been saying the exact same thing. He's great when he's healthy. They key word is WHEN. Wasting money on another guy who hasn't been healthy 1 full season is a waste. If he could stay healthy I'd be estatic. He's not and this worries me given our current injury prone runningback who lacks motivation.
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
I still have faith in Benson, but you're not sold on him... I think Brown could be a very good backup and someone to push Benson. And I think with him being in a bit of a reduced role, he can stay healthy for at least the majority of the season.
Smokey he can't even stay healthy backing up Lendale White. What makes you think this is going to change with Benson? He's never been healthy his entire career. He even had injury concerns in college.
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
I think Briggs is worth the money to stay, but I can see why we let him go... if we're lucky maybe he doesn't reach 75% of his snaps and we can franchise him and trade him.
Briggs hit that mark not too long ago, actually.

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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Jerry held a conference recently and said that they being more dynamic on offense was their #1 goal in the offseason, that indicates to me that Berrian, and likely Grossman, will be brought back.
If I were Angelo, I'd be more concerned with making my offense more consistent and effective than "more dynamic." Heck, the Bengals offense and Lions offense are dynamic, doesn't mean they're all that good.
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Old 12-29-2007, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Which of these SS prospects would be best for us?

Nic Harris
William Moore
Courtney Greene
Craig Steltz
Jamar Adams
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Old 12-29-2007, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Nic Harris has a ton of upside and the OU ties are there.
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Old 12-29-2007, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Because, you know, Grossman makes the offense more dynamic.

By that JA quote I hope that means Turner is gone.
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Old 12-29-2007, 08:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BUSTKUNTLAWL View Post
Because, you know, Grossman makes the offense more dynamic.

By that JA quote I hope that means Turner is gone.
How does he not? There's a difference between good and dynamic. There are things that Grossman can do that Griese or Orton cannot. There's no question about that.
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Old 12-29-2007, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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i was j/w how many of u guys outright want turner gone and how many of u like the idea of getting mike martz with the rumors detroit will let him go?
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Old 12-29-2007, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DaBear89 View Post
i was j/w how many of u guys outright want turner gone and how many of u like the idea of getting mike martz with the rumors detroit will let him go?
I like the idea, we want dynamic offense, he can give us one. My only thing is that unless we have a QB that makes minimal mistakes, we will have the same problems that the Lions had.
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who retires first: brett favre or aaron rodgers?
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