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Old 07-13-2010, 01:55 PM    (permalink
dabears10
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I'll take production over traits any day
You mean how Howard averaged 19 and 13 while Gasol averaged 18 and 11?
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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I would love to run into a drunk Nash and Dirk at a bar, especially back then when people outside of Mavs fans had no idea who they were.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Dwight produces plenty....

And he's 10X the defender and rebounder Pau is. He gives you similar offensive production, which infinitely better defense.

Imagine what Dwight could do with Kobe on the perimeter? He's clearly a better big than Pau is.
Pau Gasol out rebounded Howard in the playoffs. 10x? he actually out rebounded Pau Gasol by an average of 2. Pau Gasol did an excellent job against KG and the bigs of Boston, something Dwight and Magic could not do.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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You mean how Howard averaged 19 and 13 while Gasol averaged 18 and 11?
I mean production when it matters the most. Gasol did twice already.. one even against Dwight and the Magic
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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Pau Gasol out rebounded Howard in the playoffs. 10x? he actually out rebounded Pau Gasol by an average of 2. Pau Gasol did an excellent job against KG and the bigs of Boston, something Dwight and Magic could not do.
I will rephrase that. Something Pau Gasol and the Lakers were able to do, and Dwight was not able to do all alone.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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Pau Gasol out rebounded Howard in the playoffs. 10x? he actually out rebounded Pau Gasol by an average of 2. Pau Gasol did an excellent job against KG and the bigs of Boston, something Dwight and Magic could not do.
You're honestly telling me that Pau Gasol is just as good of a defender as Dwight Howard?

Really?

Come on bro. I'm not saying Pau is a horrible big man by any means, but he's definitely not the best big in the league.
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Old 07-13-2010, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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I'm not gonna argue either way because I don't think you can go wrong with any but I love how Dwight Howard doesn't get injured or miss any time. In 6 seasons he's missed 3 games. That's a rarity with today's bigs.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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Dwight will put up similar points but slightly lower than Pau. You ask me who I am taking now to start a team it is Dwight because the only thing Pau does better which doesn't weigh much imo is how he gets his points. Sure he is smarter around the rim and pretty crafty but defending a big like Howard is damn near impossible. Pau is a better passer as well but cmon I don't look for a dish man in a 7 footer. Defensively Dwight can control the entire paint by himself no matter how offensively challenged he is but he will get his 15-17 points, where as Pau will get 17-19.. but won't be grabbing 15 boards and 3 blocks
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Dwight produces plenty....

And he's 10X the defender and rebounder Pau is. He gives you similar offensive production, which infinitely better defense.

Imagine what Dwight could do with Kobe on the perimeter? He's clearly a better big than Pau is.
While Dwight doesn't have a creator like Kobe to work with, the system he's in allows him plenty of room to work with inside. I've always felt like Orlando ran a tamed-down Suns offense. Lots of high pick-and-rolls and lots of pure shooters on the court to stretch the floor. They get a little three-happy, but it's definitely not a system that limits his production by any means.

I agree that Dwight and Kobe could be be just as good of a tandem as Pau and Kobe. Remember, though, that Pau is a C/PF swingman, while Dwight is strictly a C. Pau does things that fit the triangle better in theory, but Phil would have no problems tweaking the offense to fit his personnel.

Pau is to the triangle what a guy like Joe Montana is to the WCO (not saying Pau is on that level of greatness. I'm just talking on a theoretical/schematic level). If a QB is good enough, he can fit in the WCO just by simply being good enough. However, Joe possessed the skillset that the WCO QB was built upon: elusiveness and mobility, field vision, excellent short-to-medium range accuracy, and ability to throw on the run. In the same way, Pau fits the triangle because of his intelligence (it's a read-and-react scheme, after all), passing ability, footwork in the post, and ability to hit the corner jumper to force the bigs out to him. Theoretically, that is your ideal man (offensively) as a PF in the triangle.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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I mean production when it matters the most. Gasol did twice already.. one even against Dwight and the Magic
You brought up how Howard was slowed against the Celtics but Gasol was not. You failed to mention that the Celtics centered on shutting down Howard and then against the Lakers focused on shutting down Kobe, not Gasol.

No one is arguing that the Lakers are not the better team, they are, but Howard is better than Gasol and it is not a contest. I have a feeling if Howard was on the Lakers your argument may be different.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Pau Gasol out rebounded Howard in the playoffs. 10x? he actually out rebounded Pau Gasol by an average of 2. Pau Gasol did an excellent job against KG and the bigs of Boston, something Dwight and Magic could not do.
I wouldn't call Pau's performance against the Celtics excellent. Pau got the better of KG in the first two games, but got handled pretty badly in when the series moved to Boston's court. Perkins wasn't there for game 7, which incidentally was Pau's best rebounding night.

if you want to simply look at numbers against the Celtics:

Pau 18.6 PPG 11.6 RPG 48% FG 3.7 APG 2.6 BPG 1.9 TO
Dwight 21.8 PPG 10.8 RPG 57% FG 0.7 APG 3.0 BPG 3.5 TO

Nothing there screams "Pau did excellent but Dwight didn't" to me.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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While Dwight doesn't have a creator like Kobe to work with, the system he's in allows him plenty of room to work with inside. I've always felt like Orlando ran a tamed-down Suns offense. Lots of high pick-and-rolls and lots of pure shooters on the court to stretch the floor. They get a little three-happy, but it's definitely not a system that limits his production by any means.

I agree that Dwight and Kobe could be be just as good of a tandem as Pau and Kobe. Remember, though, that Pau is a C/PF swingman, while Dwight is strictly a C. Pau does things that fit the triangle better in theory, but Phil would have no problems tweaking the offense to fit his personnel.

Pau is to the triangle what a guy like Joe Montana is to the WCO (not saying Pau is on that level of greatness. I'm just talking on a theoretical/schematic level). If a QB is good enough, he can fit in the WCO just by simply being good enough. However, Joe possessed the skillset that the WCO QB was built upon: elusiveness and mobility, field vision, excellent short-to-medium range accuracy, and ability to throw on the run. In the same way, Pau fits the triangle because of his intelligence (it's a read-and-react scheme, after all), passing ability, footwork in the post, and ability to hit the corner jumper to force the bigs out to him. Theoretically, that is your ideal man (offensively) as a PF in the triangle.
I'm not questioning how Pau fits the triangle, or how he's a good player.

I just disagree with the notion that he's the best big in the game. I also feel he's a bit soft, and you could replace him with a # of bigs who can get you roughly 20 and 10 and Kobe would still win rings with that guy.

They wouldn't do it exactly how they do it now, but I feel it would still get done one way or another.

If the Lakers could trade Pau for Bosh, or Dwight Howard, or Dirk Nowitzki, they'd do it in a heartbeat imo.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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You brought up how Howard was slowed against the Celtics but Gasol was not. You failed to mention that the Celtics centered on shutting down Howard and then against the Lakers focused on shutting down Kobe, not Gasol.

No one is arguing that the Lakers are not the better team, they are, but Howard is better than Gasol and it is not a contest. I have a feeling if Howard was on the Lakers your argument may be different.
Why wouldn't it be different? Howard would be on his way to a 3rd championship that he was a major part of. He'd have effectively shut down the Boston bigs and been revered as the REAL mvp of the 2009-10 finals series.

But he's not, its Pau Gasol.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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While Dwight doesn't have a creator like Kobe to work with, the system he's in allows him plenty of room to work with inside. I've always felt like Orlando ran a tamed-down Suns offense. Lots of high pick-and-rolls and lots of pure shooters on the court to stretch the floor. They get a little three-happy, but it's definitely not a system that limits his production by any means.
Lol yeah... The Magic's offense a lot of times was Dwight Howard down low and FOUR guys hovering around the 3pt line.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Why wouldn't it be different? Howard would be on his way to a 3rd championship that he was a major part of. He'd have effectively shut down the Boston bigs and been revered as the REAL mvp of the 2009-10 finals series.

But he's not, its Pau Gasol.
That is because basketball is a team sport, not an individual sport. You are using a team argument to determine who is the better individual play.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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That is because basketball is a team sport, not an individual sport. You are using a team argument to determine who is the better individual play.
I already argued the individual play. People are bringing up the traits that Dwight has over Pau but I'm bringing up the similar production. He can have all the traits in the world but the production is too similar to have a clear cut leader over another. But IMO, Pau Gasol is the best big man in the game.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I'm not questioning how Pau fits the triangle, or how he's a good player.

I just disagree with the notion that he's the best big in the game. I also feel he's a bit soft, and you could replace him with a # of bigs who can get you roughly 20 and 10 and Kobe would still win rings with that guy.

They wouldn't do it exactly how they do it now, but I feel it would still get done one way or another.

If the Lakers could trade Pau for Bosh, or Dwight Howard, or Dirk Nowitzki, they'd do it in a heartbeat imo.
I agree that there's a number of people they could do it with. Carlos Boozer's another guy (although his defense would get you killed inside).

Don't agree with Bosh and Dirk, though. Bosh doesn't do anything better than Gasol other than hit fadeaway jumpers. Dirk is essentially Pau with a three-pointer. I'll take Pau's offensive post-play, though. Dirk could be a great post player if he wanted to, but he prefers to do most of his work facing the basket. It's the biggest knock I have on him. All three (Bosh, Dirk, and Dwight) would be hugely successful with the Lakers though, no doubt.

It's interesting to see perception change over time, though. After the loss to the Celtics, people said what a mentally weak supporting cast Bynum, Gasol, and Odom were. People were legitimately asking, "Could you honestly ever see Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom holding a Championship trophy?" Now, perception is that they're far and away the best supporting cast in the league.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Brook Lopez>>>. Pau +Dwight Howard
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I already argued the individual play. People are bringing up the traits that Dwight has over Pau but I'm bringing up the similar production. He can have all the traits in the world but the production is too similar to have a clear cut leader over another. But IMO, Pau Gasol is the best big man in the game.
You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but I honestly don't think you'll find many if any who agree with you.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Wait YFS Kobe couldn't win a title with Bosh or Dirk?
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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I already argued the individual play. People are bringing up the traits that Dwight has over Pau but I'm bringing up the similar production. He can have all the traits in the world but the production is too similar to have a clear cut leader over another. But IMO, Pau Gasol is the best big man in the game.
So if Howard was on the Lakers and won back to back championships he would be better. Gasol then on the Magic and not winning would then change how good each player is?
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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So if Howard was on the Lakers and won back to back championships he would be better. Gasol then on the Magic and not winning would then change how good each player is?
Production when it matters
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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Wait YFS Kobe couldn't win a title with Bosh or Dirk?
Middle paragraph.

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Don't agree with Bosh and Dirk, though. Bosh doesn't do anything better than Gasol other than hit fadeaway jumpers. Dirk is essentially Pau with a three-pointer. I'll take Pau's offensive post-play, though. Dirk could be a great post player if he wanted to, but he prefers to do most of his work facing the basket. It's the biggest knock I have on him. All three (Bosh, Dirk, and Dwight) would be hugely successful with the Lakers though, no doubt.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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All this Magic talk without posts from MOTH or me? I can't have that! LOL.

The comparison between Gasol and Howard is neato, but one is a PF and the other is a C.

Anyways... I love Howard, but until he can hit his FTs, he will be limited offensively. I'm amazed at how he gets by as is, but he would turn into an all time great if he could simply hit a high percentage of his FTs. It limits his offensive game SOOOOOO much. There's a big reason why he hasn't developed a low post go to move that works effectively. That reason is because moves take time to perform. If he gets hacked the second he touches the ball, then he doesn't even have a CHANCE at working his feet/body/arms to make a move.

Right now it's - Get Dwight the ball - BAM! Foul! - Go to the line.

Or throw him a lob close enough to the rim where there is little time/space to hack him.

Once he becomes a threat at the line, THEN he will be able to manuever his way around the rim.


There are ways to work around this, but it requires having a PG who is an excellent ball distributor. Jameer will never be that.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but I honestly don't think you'll find many if any who agree with you.
I honestly dont care. I'm not here to change anyone's opinion. just defending my own
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