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View Poll Results: Who will win the NBA Championship in 2013?
Miami Heat 15 26.79%
Miami Heat 3 5.36%
Miami Heat 31 55.36%
Miami Heat 6 10.71%
Miami Heat 1 1.79%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-16-2010, 12:04 AM    (permalink
Shiver
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As if the stats don't have any correlation. Michael Jordan was the best player in the universe, the stats bore that out. LeBron James is a better player than Dwyane Wade, the stats bear that out. He is the reigning two-time MVP, the most famous basketball player, the most amazing physical talent we've ever seen. If Wade outplays him, so be it, but nothing we've seen would indicate that. I like arguments based on empirical evidence, not on who 'feels' like they will be 'the guy' or whatever that means.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Right. It's fine to say that Lebron will be the MJ, and Wade will be the Pippen, or vice versa. You can say MJ had better stats than Pippen, and Lebron will have better stats than Wade, therefore, Lebron will be MJ and Wade will be Pippen, and that's legitimate.

But what I meant was, no one is saying Lebron will put up numbers like Pippen did, or comparing him to Pippen's production or talent in any way. They are taking Lebron and Wade, and discussing who will play the role of MJ and who will play the role of Pippen. Or more simply, who will be the mega producing leader, and who will be the side kick.

Bring up Pippen's stats and saying Lebron will never produce that low is completely irrelevant to the discussion, because no one is comparing Lebron to Pippen. They are comparing roles, not stats.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:11 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by yo123 View Post
Holy **** is this board starting to overrate Dwayne Wade. He is not as good as Lebron James. Lebron/Wade/Bosh is the clear pecking order in Miami.
It might be "Wade's team," but Lebron is by far th best player (in the league, **** you Kobe). Lebron might be taking the easy road by joining Miami, but the reason they are favorites and will win the championship is because of Lebron's all-around game.

Look at Bill Simmons' "42" stat. Stats may be overrated and yeah Simmons' is a joke at times, but it's hard to deny this number. No player combining their ppg/rebounds/assists has recently reached the number 42 anywhere near the amount of times James has...It's remarkable. He's more Magic than Kobe could ever dream to be.

I suppose the argument will always come back to winning though, so I'm defeating my own argument.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Magic match offer for Redick. Wow.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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And supposedly it puts the Magic into the luxury tax? Impressive.

Ronnie Brewer, congrats on becoming the new starting SG for the Chicago Bulls.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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I know the Hawks won't win a title because of Shaq, but he sure makes them more interesting than boring ass Marvin Williams. I hope they are swapped. Atlanta would hopefully be able to keep Shaq fresh for the postseason.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
As if the stats don't have any correlation. Michael Jordan was the best player in the universe, the stats bore that out. LeBron James is a better player than Dwyane Wade, the stats bear that out. He is the reigning two-time MVP, the most famous basketball player, the most amazing physical talent we've ever seen. If Wade outplays him, so be it, but nothing we've seen would indicate that. I like arguments based on empirical evidence, not on who 'feels' like they will be 'the guy' or whatever that means.
There's a big difference though... Wade already won a title with Miami. He won over their loyalty.

The bulls fans' loyalty was always to Michael. Michael was there first.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
As if the stats don't have any correlation. Michael Jordan was the best player in the universe, the stats bore that out. LeBron James is a better player than Dwyane Wade, the stats bear that out. He is the reigning two-time MVP, the most famous basketball player, the most amazing physical talent we've ever seen. If Wade outplays him, so be it, but nothing we've seen would indicate that. I like arguments based on empirical evidence, not on who 'feels' like they will be 'the guy' or whatever that means.
I think Kobe's espy last night makes me believe that he may be the most famous right now....

...thats mainly due to the fact that i believe espys are just fans voting for their favorite player. thats why i say that.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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I really don't think it's as simple as "so and so is the better player, therefore it's his team." Like soybean said, Miami worships Wade. LeBron is the better player, but right now it is not his team. For the time being he'll have to take a backseat to Wade. Eventually it'll probably become LeBron's team, but he may have to wait a while for that to happen because Wade still has a few more elite years left in the tank.

If LeBron is happy playing the "Magic" role then this team is going to dominate. After all his campaign slogans and nicknames though, I never would've expected him to settle for being #2. Wade has more Michael/Kobe in him than LeBron does.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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If LeBron is happy playing the "Magic" role then this team is going to dominate. After all his campaign slogans and nicknames though, I never would've expected him to settle for being #2. Wade has more Michael/Kobe in him than LeBron does.
Woah, I've never agreed and disagreed more in a single paragraph in my life. If and when Lebron embraces the role of all-around Magic-type player for the Heat, they will dominate the competition.

Lebron took Cleveland from 200 mil, to more than twice that, he took them from 17 wins, to averaging 60, he's putting up MVP numbers that haven't been matched in a long, long time. Just because he had a rough 2010 postseason, I refuse to accept the idea that Lebron isn't a "killer."
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:50 AM    (permalink
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Why the **** does it matter who the fans support? Do you think Lebron is going to have the ball ready to take the game deciding shot and think "****, I might be the best player on the team but I think the fans like Dwayne better, I better give him the ball." It makes no difference who has been there longer. The thing is these guys all chose to play together, meaning there is no possible way they can all expect to have the ball as much as they did where they were playing before. And if they do they deserve to have this whole thing blow up in their faces.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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Woah, I've never agreed and disagreed more in a single paragraph in my life. If and when Lebron embraces the role of all-around Magic-type player for the Heat, they will dominate the competition.

Lebron took Cleveland from 200 mil, to more than twice that, he took them from 17 wins, to averaging 60, he's putting up MVP numbers that haven't been matched in a long, long time. Just because he had a rough 2010 postseason, I refuse to accept the idea that Lebron isn't a "killer."
LeBron James, by himself, took Cleveland from a 17 win team to a 60 win team? Yeah, ok. That 2002 Cleveland team was terrible.

PG: Milt Palacio/Smush Parker
SG: Ricky Davis
SF: Darius Miles
PF: Carlos Boozer
C: Big Z

After James was drafted in 2003, they went from a 17 win team to a 35 win team. Then they increased to 42 wins, then to 50, again to 50, then to 66, finally to 61. During that time he went from having Milt Palacio to Mo Williams running the point, Ricky Davis to Delonte West, Carlos Boozer to Antwan Jamison, and Big Z to Shaq.

It's more than just LeBron that brought them to those wins. He helped, of course, but he has also hasn't been great in most of the playoff games he has played in. You saw in the series with Boston that he was frustrated and tired of having the burden to carry the team. Why else would he throw off his jersey in disgust? Or fake a finger injury?

From winning a championship to being a monster during the regular season and almost single handily beating the Boston Celtics, Dwyane Wade has proved to be a killer. He has that instinct, that spark, that drive. Whatever it takes, he has. Why else would he recruit players to play for his team. He didn't want to go anywhere much like MJ, Bird, and Magic didn't want to leave their teams either. While LeBron may be touted as the best player in the league, Wade will be the leader as he has proven over and over again while in Miami. He doesn't mind have that weight on him. He actually seems to thrive with that responsibility. LeBron cracked under pressure. Its not a knock to say that LeBron will have a Pippen type role because if he's happy dishing out assists and being the second option then great. But it is Wade's team, the fans love him, he has already won a championship for that city, and while LeBron's stats may be better than Wade's, their not better by much.

Wade: 36.3 minutes, 26.6 pts, 6.5 dimes, 4.8 boards
James: 39.0 minutes, 29.7 pts, 8.6 dimes, 7.3 boards

3.1 pts, 2.1 assists, 2.5 rebounds, and 2.7 minutes separates the two. That's not a lot. I think LeBron will like having someone to step up and take the lead of the team and that he is fine with dishing the ball for an assist and basically being like Magic Johnson was.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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... who's Milt Palacio?
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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... who's Milt Palacio?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milt_Palacio

He started 46 games for them in 2002 at the point.

Out of that 2002 Cavs team, only 3 are still in the league (Big Z, Boozer, and Diop).
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Old 07-16-2010, 04:22 AM    (permalink
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Kemp is one my all time favorite players. He was one the most explosive athletes to ever play the game. He played with an attitude and attacked the hoop with raw power and violence.

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Old 07-16-2010, 06:26 AM    (permalink
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Imagine if Amar'e never had the knee problems. That is what Shawn Kemp was. He was a freak run and jump athlete. This type of leaping ability from a man his size was just staggering.
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Old 07-16-2010, 06:45 AM    (permalink
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From winning a championship to being a monster during the regular season and almost single handily beating the Boston Celtics, Dwyane Wade has proved to be a killer. He has that instinct, that spark, that drive. Whatever it takes, he has.
He beat them in one game. I can show a more impressive game in a more pressurized situation..



48 against a good defensive team in the Eastern Conference Finals. Absolutely unstoppable down the stretch in that game. The woman's face @ 9:28 told the story. Everyone was a witness that night to the greatest basketball prodigy of all time. The hype was real.

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Why else would he recruit players to play for his team.
Because they had the most cap space.


He didn't want to go anywhere much like MJ, Bird, and Magic didn't want to leave their teams either. While LeBron may be touted as the best player in the league, Wade will be the leader as he has proven over and over again while in Miami. He doesn't mind have that weight on him. He actually seems to thrive with that responsibility. LeBron cracked under pressure. Its not a knock to say that LeBron will have a Pippen type role because if he's happy dishing out assists and being the second option then great. But it is Wade's team, the fans love him, he has already won a championship for that city, and while LeBron's stats may be better than Wade's, their not better by much.

Quote:
Wade: 36.3 minutes, 26.6 pts, 6.5 dimes, 4.8 boards
James: 39.0 minutes, 29.7 pts, 8.6 dimes, 7.3 boards

3.1 pts, 2.1 assists, 2.5 rebounds, and 2.7 minutes separates the two. That's not a lot. I think LeBron will like having someone to step up and take the lead of the team and that he is fine with dishing the ball for an assist and basically being like Magic Johnson was.
He also does it on a lower usage rate. He has two MVPs to Wade's none.
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:17 AM    (permalink
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And supposedly it puts the Magic into the luxury tax? Impressive.

Ronnie Brewer, congrats on becoming the new starting SG for the Chicago Bulls.
I was expecting the move the last few days. It's not really surprising and Orlando went into the luxury tax last year as well. They do have a billionaire owner, who has no problem paying the tax, these days.

I just wish we'd hand Redick the reigns now...again, not a huge redick fan, but he's better than Carter. Trade Carter for a PF, I really dont even care who, hell trade him for more expiring contracts. Orlando is a better team without VC.
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:40 AM    (permalink
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He also does it on a lower usage rate. He has two MVPs to Wade's none.

And he is better defensively, being on the first team all-NBA twice. Wade has been on a second team twice.

And he performs better in the 4th Qtr by a good percentage. (isn't clutch, cracks under pressure... *njxeyerollhere*)

And he had played better in the playoffs (sans ring obviously) from a statistical perspective.

There are so many myths, exaggerations and flat out conjecture about LeBron James it is unbelievable to me. If someone wanted to make an argument that Kobe Bryant is the better player I wouldn't mind it, I would disagree if we were talking in the present but that's beside the point. When people say LeBron hasn't performed in the playoffs, that is not true. When they say he isn't clutch, that is not true.



Just another "cracking under pressure" playoff performance I suppose.
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Old 07-16-2010, 07:52 AM    (permalink
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MOTH:

Courtney Lee for Brandon Bass and your next years first. do it, NOW.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:24 AM    (permalink
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MOTH:

Courtney Lee for Brandon Bass and your next years first. do it, NOW.
That would make a ton of sense if you don't include the first.
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Old 07-16-2010, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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That would make a ton of sense if you don't include the first.
i'm just greedy and want the 1st. It'd most likely be a late first anyway. But yea, Moth and I both would enjoy a Lee-Bass swap. I'd love Bass. His style of play, his contract, and the fact he's a power forward who isn't Kris Humphries.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 07-16-2010, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Dear Cleveland, All of Northeast Ohio and Cleveland Cavaliers Supporters Wherever You May Be Tonight; As you now know, our former center, who we drafted in 1996 out of a region you probably never heard of, is no longer a Cleveland Cavalier.

This was announced after we traded him to the lowly Washington Wizards in February and waited for over 30 days for him to become eligible so we could re-sign him to a lowball offer.

Now, despite a several-day, narcissistic, self-promotional buildup culminating with a national TV special of our former King’s “decision” unlike anything ever “witnessed” in the history of sports and probably the history of entertainment, the self-proclaimed “Big Z” is taking his act to South Beach as well.

Clearly, this is bitterly disappointing to all of us.

The good news is that the ownership, team, and the rest of the hard-working, overpaid, overrated bums here at your hometown Cavaliers have not betrayed you nor NEVER will betray you, because frankly, we can't. It's hard to gain trust when you stink.

There is so much more to tell you about the events of the recent past and our more than dismal future. Over the next several days and weeks, we will be communicating much of that to you.

You simply don’t deserve this kind of cowardly betrayal.

You have given so much and deserve so much more.

In the meantime, I want to make one statement to you tonight: “I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE THAT THE CLEVELAND CAVALIERS WILL WIN AN NBA CHAMPIONSHIP BEFORE THE SELF-TITLED FORMER ‘BIG Z’ WINS ONE.”

You can take it to the bank.

If you thought we were motivated before tonight to bring the hardware to Cleveland, I can tell you that this shameful display of selfishness, piggybacking, and betrayal by one of our very own has shifted our “motivation” to previously unknown and previously never experienced levels.

Some people think they can win a title but NOT have to play here to get one.
Sorry, but that’s simply not how it works.

This shocking act of disloyalty from our own drafted “Big Z” sends the exact opposite lesson of what we would want our children to learn. And “who” we would want them to grow up to become.

But the good news is that this heartless and callous action can only serve as the antidote to the so-called “curse” on Cleveland, Ohio.

The self-declared former “Big Z” will be taking the “curse” and his slow-footed post moves, lack of defense, and the speed of a paper clip with him down South. And until he does “right” by Cleveland, Ohio, and Lithuania, Ilgauskas (and the town where he plays) will unfortunately own this dreaded spell and bad karma.
Just watch.

Sleep well, Cleveland.

Tomorrow is a new and much brighter day…

I PROMISE you that our energy, focus, capital, knowledge, and the bums that disappear in the playoffs on our remaining roster will be directed at one thing and one thing only: DELIVERING YOU the championship you have long deserved and is long overdue…

Sincerely pissed off
Dan Gilbert
Cleveland Cavaliers
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Old 07-16-2010, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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I think Kobe's espy last night makes me believe that he may be the most famous right now....

...thats mainly due to the fact that i believe espys are just fans voting for their favorite player. thats why i say that.
Globally, Kobe is the most famous and popular NBA athlete, and it's not even close.
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