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Old 07-19-2010, 03:08 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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how bout this analogy: If you're playing a computer game would you rather play it legitamately or use god mode?
legit. what's the point of playing it if its gonna be easy? what does that accomplish?
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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I was thinking about this whole Lebron/Wade/Bosh trio and you know what this reminds me of?

When you get 10 guys together, and get on a court and pick teams, you always try to make them even so its a good game right? Like, you obviously want to win, but your competitive juices won't allow you to just take the 4 best players on your team and leave the scraps on the other team and just mop the floor with em.

Your pride won't allow you to do that. It doesn't feel right, you feel dirty and tainted.

And if you're a true competitor, you want to beat the best guys, not play with em. I know me personally, I prefer being on the team with the scraps and trying to beat the superstar team. You beat the best, you don't play with them.

I'm just trying to figure out LeBron's competitive nature. I think this hurts him a lot. I don't view him as a competitor. Even look at his favorite teams, the Yankees, and Cowboys. The guy is a front runner. Its in his nature to be like this.

I just don't get it. I'm trying to figure out why he would do this, and I don't get it. If you don't want to be known as the best, then don't call yourself King James and have press conferences about your decision and wear witness t shirts and all that hoopla.

If youre content on being second fiddle, then be a second fiddle. Don't act like "the chosen one" when you don't have that kind of heart.
He's the "Chosen One-Third" now in my book.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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I don't think it is going to be "easy" for the Heat, even with those three players. The Lakers, right now, would be the favorites. The Celtics, if healthy, are still tough. The Magic have Dwight Howard and shooters. Oklahoma City, Dallas and Utah have solid teams. The Heat have done a good job acquiring shooters, defenders and veterans; but let's face facts, if these three don't gel they will go no where.

The question LeBron had to have asked himself is this: do I want to be on the 4th best team in the East or do I want to be on a team that can beat the Lakers? Long term 'legacy' probably wasn't on his mind. In fact, supposedly some in his inner circle brought that to his attention and he dismissed it.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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But he is being so unselfish for taking less money!

In all seriousness, couldn't agree with you more bigblue.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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I was thinking about this whole Lebron/Wade/Bosh trio and you know what this reminds me of?

When you get 10 guys together, and get on a court and pick teams, you always try to make them even so its a good game right? Like, you obviously want to win, but your competitive juices won't allow you to just take the 4 best players on your team and leave the scraps on the other team and just mop the floor with em.

Your pride won't allow you to do that. It doesn't feel right, you feel dirty and tainted.

And if you're a true competitor, you want to beat the best guys, not play with em. I know me personally, I prefer being on the team with the scraps and trying to beat the superstar team. You beat the best, you don't play with them.

I'm just trying to figure out LeBron's competitive nature. I think this hurts him a lot. I don't view him as a competitor. Even look at his favorite teams, the Yankees, and Cowboys. The guy is a front runner. Its in his nature to be like this.

I just don't get it. I'm trying to figure out why he would do this, and I don't get it. If you don't want to be known as the best, then don't call yourself King James and have press conferences about your decision and wear witness t shirts and all that hoopla.

If youre content on being second fiddle, then be a second fiddle. Don't act like "the chosen one" when you don't have that kind of heart.
Lebron tried beating the best for 7 years an really never sniffed the championship. If he could not get it done the last 2 seasons i don't see how he could outside of averaging a triple double in the playoffs. His favorite sports teams shouldn't have any bearing the cowboys and bulls haven't won a championship this millennium its hard to call him a front runner. Bosh has become incredibly overrated from all this.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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So it is competitive to stay in Cleveland and be the 4th best team in the East? It is competitive to be the only player keeping your franchise from perennial lottery pick status? Interesting definition of "competitive" you got there.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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I dont post there but read the occassional Magic board...they've all convinced themselves that we're still getting Arenas for Carter. lol. There is no real susbtance, only quotes from a Wizards, "inside source". Arenas' contract is killer and if they view Redick as the future now, that'd be a pretty pointless move, which will, in turn, piss off Redick some more. Dude used to be incredibly depressed until SVG gave him a steady role, and now he fully expects to me starting fairly soon.
Is this the Magic board on the team site? Is it good?

As for Redick, he's just a good bench player with the potential to be a 6th man. Making him a starter on a team with Championship expectations is almost a joke to me. Agree or disagree?

As for VC for Arenas.... I only do it if we can get Blatche in the deal somehow. I don't care if we have to add to the deal to make it happen. Arenas' contract is the worst in all of sports. I don't care what he flashed last year. There is no way in hell that the guy stays healthy during the term of his contract. We need to be prepared for 2012 or 2013 when Dwight becomes a FA. I also agree that he is a total headcase. Right now we're set to be able to start over in 2013 and surround Dwight with other max FAs. Getting Arenas is a risk that makes that difficult or impossible to do.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by soybean View Post
how bout this analogy: If you're playing a computer game would you rather play it legitamately or use god mode?
The correct answer is try playing at first, but when you get to the point where you keep dying/can't win, enter cheat codes.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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But he is being so unselfish for taking less money!

In all seriousness, couldn't agree with you more bigblue.
I think Lebron was unselfish about personal legacy. Him wanting to join Wade and Bosh to win, tarnishes anything he accomplished with that team. Unless he gets on his own team again, he'll never be named with MJ and Kobe.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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I don't think it is going to be "easy" for the Heat, even with those three players. The Lakers, right now, would be the favorites. The Celtics, if healthy, are still tough. The Magic have Dwight Howard and shooters. Oklahoma City, Dallas and Utah have solid teams. The Heat have done a good job acquiring shooters, defenders and veterans; but let's face facts, if these three don't gel they will go no where.

The question LeBron had to have asked himself is this: do I want to be on the 4th best team in the East or do I want to be on a team that can beat the Lakers? Long term 'legacy' probably wasn't on his mind. In fact, supposedly some in his inner circle brought that to his attention and he dismissed it.
If he isn't concerned with his long term legacy, then he needs to stop pretending he is the greatest and "The Chosen One".

The Heat are the best team in the league right now. The Lakers are tough, but I don't think there is anyway they can stop LeBron and Wade for four games in a series.

If LeBron goes to NY, NJ, or Chicago, he already has a better supporting cast than he did in Cleveland, so he already is at 60 wins. Boston is tough, but a year older and a year more worn down. The Magic would be tough, and so would the Heat. But if you are a competitor, the greatest, or the ******* "Chosen One", you beat tough competition. LeBron is a cop out.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Lebron tried beating the best for 7 years an really never sniffed the championship. If he could not get it done the last 2 seasons i don't see how he could outside of averaging a triple double in the playoffs. His favorite sports teams shouldn't have any bearing the cowboys and bulls haven't won a championship this millennium its hard to call him a front runner. Bosh has become incredibly overrated from all this.
Jordan took at least 7 years to win a championship, too.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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He didn't have to stay in Cleveland, but forming that trio in Miami is just something that elite competitors don't do.

All he needed was a #2 and he'd be ok. Kobe didn't leave LA and join LeBron in Cleveland. He'd never do that. He just wanted a legit #2 so he could compete for championships.

This is like Magic and Bird teaming up and saying "hey, instead of competing each other for rings, lets play on the same team and try to win em all!"

Like, what's the point in that? Where's the competitive drive? Don't you want to beat your competition? I personally don't understand it.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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I think Lebron was unselfish about personal legacy. Him wanting to join Wade and Bosh to win, tarnishes anything he accomplished with that team. Unless he gets on his own team again, he'll never be named with MJ and Kobe.
The same Kobe that got a hall of fame Shaq? Eventually got one of the best big man in Gasol for scraps to replace him? The guy that is loaded with 7 footers around him. Sure is easy to be happy when your playing with a bazooka instead of a water pistol.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Is this the Magic board on the team site? Is it good?

As for Redick, he's just a good bench player with the potential to be a 6th man. Making him a starter on a team with Championship expectations is almost a joke to me. Agree or disagree?

As for VC for Arenas.... I only do it if we can get Blatche in the deal somehow. I don't care if we have to add to the deal to make it happen. Arenas' contract is the worst in all of sports. I don't care what he flashed last year. There is no way in hell that the guy stays healthy during the term of his contract. We need to be prepared for 2012 or 2013 when Dwight becomes a FA. I also agree that he is a total headcase. Right now we're set to be able to start over in 2013 and surround Dwight with other max FAs. Getting Arenas is a risk that makes that difficult or impossible to do.
This is pretty much how I felt when seeing the Bulls offer Reddick. I've never been the biggest fan of his, but he has improved a lot since coming into the league. However, I really didn't want him to be our starting SG. Granted, there's not a ton of options, but I just would not feel comfortable with Reddick. I know hindsight is 20/20, but if we gave up Hinrich (despite his contract) and went into the season starting Reddick at 2 instead, I'd be pretty upset.

That said, I think Reddick would be a really good 6th man like you said.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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If he isn't concerned with his long term legacy, then he needs to stop pretending he is the greatest and "The Chosen One".

The Heat are the best team in the league right now. The Lakers are tough, but I don't think there is anyway they can stop LeBron and Wade for four games in a series.

If LeBron goes to NY, NJ, or Chicago, he already has a better supporting cast than he did in Cleveland, so he already is at 60 wins. Boston is tough, but a year older and a year more worn down. The Magic would be tough, and so would the Heat. But if you are a competitor, the greatest, or the ******* "Chosen One", you beat tough competition. LeBron is a cop out.
this sums it up perfectly.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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He didn't have to stay in Cleveland, but forming that trio in Miami is just something that elite competitors don't do.

All he needed was a #2 and he'd be ok. Kobe didn't leave LA and join LeBron in Cleveland. He'd never do that. He just wanted a legit #2 so he could compete for championships.

This is like Magic and Bird teaming up and saying "hey, instead of competing each other for rings, lets play on the same team and try to win em all!"

Like, what's the point in that? Where's the competitive drive? Don't you want to beat your competition? I personally don't understand it.

Moses Malone.. end of discussion. Is his, or Dr. J's legacy tarnished because of that? LeBron James is the first player to win the MVP and then switch teams since Malone did it. Malone won a title in Dr. J's "town," but it didn't matter because the end results speak louder than conjecture about his "competitive" spirit.

Magic and Bird played with not one, but multiple hall of famers. Maybe they should have left so they could preserve their legacy... oh wait, because it doesn't ****ing matter as long as you win.

Oh and **** Charles Barkely for criticizing this. He joined up with Hakeem and Cylde (and later Scottie Pippen) to try the exact same thing.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Yea, except Barkley did it 12 years into his career, while he was on the decline at 33 years old.

There's a difference between old guys who have never won and joined good teams, i.e. Malone/Payton or what Barkley tried to do, and switching to a team at during the ascension to the peak of your career (it isn't even Lebron's peak, he's still rising probably) to play with 2 other stars.

There's a huge difference in the situations. If you're gonna complain about Barkley front running, at least use the Suns as it's a better example. The Rockets was Barkley trying to get a ring as an old man.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Moses Malone.. end of discussion. Is his, or Dr. J's legacy tarnished because of that? LeBron James is the first player to win the MVP and then switch teams since Malone did it. Malone won a title in Dr. J's "town," but it didn't matter because the end results speak louder than conjecture about his "competitive" spirit.

Magic and Bird played with not one, but multiple hall of famers. Maybe they should have left so they could preserve their legacy... oh wait, because it doesn't ****ing matter as long as you win.

Oh and **** Charles Barkely for criticizing this. He joined up with Hakeem and Cylde (and later Scottie Pippen) to try the exact same thing.
It isn't about playing with other good players. You can't win alone in the NBA. It is about the top 2 players in the league and another top 10-15 player joining up in an attempt to make a super team. Having Hall of Famers on your team is one thing, but trying to join up with the second best player and another very good player is different.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Moses Malone.. end of discussion. Is his, or Dr. J's legacy tarnished because of that? LeBron James is the first player to win the MVP and then switch teams since Malone did it. Malone won a title in Dr. J's "town," but it didn't matter because the end results speak louder than conjecture about his "competitive" spirit.
Yes yes 100 times yes. No body calls Dr. J or Moses Malone the best ever. In fact Bill Simmons has already compared Lebron James to Dr. J. A player who was all over the highlight reels and extremely exciting to watch but was never intense enough to win a championship.

Moses Malone was one of the quietest stars ever. He couldn't speak very well and always avoided interviews and television spots. LeBron embraces it and previously had the ambition of being the best ever.

In the end LeBron gets to hang with 2 friends and slay 100s of south beach ladies whenever he wants.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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So it is competitive to stay in Cleveland and be the 4th best team in the East? It is competitive to be the only player keeping your franchise from perennial lottery pick status? Interesting definition of "competitive" you got there.
Looking back, it's incredibly apparent that James never had any intentions of staying in Cleveland.

The past two years, he refused to commit to the Cavs long-term, which definitely hurt their ability to pursue top free agents. Remember their pursuit of Trevor Ariza last year? Ariza himself said those talks fell through because LBJ wouldn't commit to being in Cleveland.

My Julius Peppers/Jesus Shuttlesworth analogy keeps looking more and more right.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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You guys are seriously underrating the Cavs. None of those guys are #1 or really desirable #2s. But they're really deep with solid role players, and that counts for something. It's not even close to as bad as the post-Shaq Lakers. They've had the best record in the league two years running, for christ's sake. Let's stop pretending he was surrounded by scrubs and had no chance to win a ring. A few calls go differently and the entire Magic team doesn't play the series of their lives, and the Cavs could have gotten to the Finals last season. If LeBron didn't choke in the second round this season, they could have beaten the team that took LA to 7 games this season. It's not like he was toiling away on a ****** team here.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Yes yes 100 times yes. No body calls Dr. J or Moses Malone the best ever. In fact Bill Simmons has already compared Lebron James to Dr. J. A player who was all over the highlight reels and extremely exciting to watch but was never intense enough to win a championship.

Moses Malone was one of the quietest stars ever. He couldn't speak very well and always avoided interviews and television spots. LeBron embraces it and previously had the ambition of being the best ever.

In the end LeBron gets to hang with 2 friends and slay 100s of south beach ladies whenever he wants.
Exactly. Simmons comparing Lebron to Dr. J (in terms of career arc) is an absolutely perfect comparison.

Here's the excerpt. It was written after the Cavs-Celtics series.

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And last night, LeBron's DNA finally made sense to me. Throw Jordan out. Throw Magic out, too, except for the "controls sections of a game with passing/rebounding" part. Keep Bo. Now, add this guy Julius Erving.
I will explain.
Doc was one of the 20 best NBA players of all time. (In my book, I ranked him 16th.) Like LeBron, he did things on a basketball court that nobody had ever seen before. Like LeBron, he made the court shrink with a full head of steam. Like LeBron, his peers revered his talents. Like LeBron, he was articulate and thoughtful. Like LeBron, you watched him from afar and thought, "He seems like a good guy." Like LeBron, he was a small forward who rebounded bigger than his size (at least the first few years). Like LeBron, his durability was almost unparalleled. (Doc played in 1,277 of a possible 1,395 games, including seven seasons of 95-plus games). Like LeBron, women and children loved him. Like LeBron, he was extremely savvy about his image (and how to cultivate it). Like LeBron, he was an incredible, once-in-a-generation athlete. Like LeBron, his faulty outside shooting plagued him, so teams laid off him, packed the middle and prayed he would miss 20-footers. And, like LeBron, he was a nice guy.
(Hold that last thought for a second.)
Doc at age 26 (ABA, 1975-76 season, his fifth): 29.3 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 5.0 APG, 50.7% FG.
LeBron at age 25 (this year, his seventh season): 29.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 50.3% FG.
Doc in the '76 playoffs (13 games): 34.7 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 4.9 APG, 53.3% FG.
LeBron in the '10 playoffs (11 games): 29.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 7.6 APG, 50.2% FG.
The big difference: Doc captured two ABA titles (in '74 and '76). LeBron hasn't won anything. Of course, the ABA played right into Doc's wheelhouse: The league didn't have enough big guys, nobody played defense, a school-yard-type game carried the day, and the league was diluted enough that someone as gifted as Doc could run roughshod. When the ABA and NBA merged in the summer of 1976, Doc switched teams (to Philly) and the big question became, "When will Dr. J win an NBA title?"

Now here's where the parallels get interesting. Doc spent the next six seasons falling short as everyone picked him apart. Stuff like, "He's not the same guy that he was in the ABA," "He's too nice, he doesn't have a killer instinct" and "His teammates are letting him down." The '77 Sixers (a selfish team of freelancers) memorably self-combusted in the Finals against Bill Walton's methodical Blazers. When the '78 Bullets shocked Philly in six, not only did Washington's Bobby Dandridge outplay Doc in the series but everyone started calling David Thompson (rather than Doc) the NBA's best ABA import. The '79 Spurs knocked Philly out again, with San Antonio's Larry Kenon playing Doc to a draw. (That March, Sports Illustrated ran a feature called "Hey, What's Up With the Doc?" and wondered whether his best years were behind him.) Once Philly quietly started building a team of unselfish guys around him (Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks) and found him a second scorer (Andrew Toney), Doc's fortunes changed: Finals appearances in 1980 and 1982, as well as a (dubious, but still) MVP award in 1981. But only when Philly acquired Moses Malone, a true alpha dog and the league's best player at the time, did Doc finally get an NBA ring (in 1983).


Let's go back to those first three Philly seasons: Doc was stuck playing with guys such as George McGinnis (the ultimate ball stopper, owner of the all-time turnover record), World B. Free (gunner), Darryl Dawkins (great athlete, low basketball IQ), Jellybean Bryant (Kobe's dad -- I don't need to say any more) and Doug Collins (another guy who needed shots). He deferred to them way too much. For the '76 Nets, Doc averaged 22.7 shots per game. From '77 through '79: 16.7, 16.4, 18.7. Do you realize what a joke that was? Unfortunately, he was too nice of a guy. Doc allowed everyone else to determine his destiny. When he tried to take over it never felt right. He was always one of those flow-of-the-game stars. Always. The same quality that made him a wonderful teammate also made him a liability if things were falling apart.


(Sound familiar?)
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...4&sportCat=nba

There's the entire article. It's a great read.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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The same Kobe that got a hall of fame Shaq? Eventually got one of the best big man in Gasol for scraps to replace him? The guy that is loaded with 7 footers around him. Sure is easy to be happy when your playing with a bazooka instead of a water pistol.
The difference is MJ and Kobe stuck with their teams. If Wade and Bosh had joined Lebron in Cleveland, it still would've been Lebron's team. He still would've been the man. The fact that he left to go to Wade's team tarnishes his legacy.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Is this the Magic board on the team site? Is it good?

As for Redick, he's just a good bench player with the potential to be a 6th man. Making him a starter on a team with Championship expectations is almost a joke to me. Agree or disagree?

As for VC for Arenas.... I only do it if we can get Blatche in the deal somehow. I don't care if we have to add to the deal to make it happen. Arenas' contract is the worst in all of sports. I don't care what he flashed last year. There is no way in hell that the guy stays healthy during the term of his contract. We need to be prepared for 2012 or 2013 when Dwight becomes a FA. I also agree that he is a total headcase. Right now we're set to be able to start over in 2013 and surround Dwight with other max FAs. Getting Arenas is a risk that makes that difficult or impossible to do.
Yeah, that's the one I check out every once in a while. And no it's not good, the vast majority are just homers, who think we can acquire anyone we damn please for no one at all. I dont even bother to post over there.

I'd disagree with the Redick statement...for the simple fact that he is better than Carter, right now. He gives us the better option to win. The Bulls were about to start him as well. Redick is entering the prime of his career, if he's going to amount to anything, it's going to have to happen right now. The guy has actually played fantastic basketball in his few starts, he's not ideal, but he's better than Carter...that's the only reason, I'd rather see him start.

As for Arenas and Blatche...talk about trouble. haha. I love Blatche, but the guy is a D Bag. Apparently a major hang up over this possible trade was that Dwight didnt think Arenas personality would fit in. Considering he's a hot head and bat **** crazy and what not. Blatche is the same way.
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Old 07-19-2010, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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The difference is MJ and Kobe stuck with their teams. If Wade and Bosh had joined Lebron in Cleveland, it still would've been Lebron's team. He still would've been the man. The fact that he left to go to Wade's team tarnishes his legacy.
Lebron started to become the odd man out. Bosh had no intention of playing in Cleveland(whether that was Lebron's doing who knows). He took the glamorous life of South Beach and a chance to win multiple championships. If he stays in cleveland maybe he lucks into one in miami he could have his chance to go for 6.
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