NBA Discussion Thread

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

MOTH is right about the list of suitors not being a long list. The list of trade partners with Orlando should only be limited to those teams who have the cap space to sign him outright.

LA is out of it. They can't sign Dwight outright, so they don't put any pressure on ORL to trade him there. Dwight can't/won't say "Trade me to LA or I'll sign with them for the MLE". Makes no sense. Neither can he say "Trade me to LA or I'll leave you for the Nets (or any other team under the cap)". For one, if that is known, then LA won't give up the goods for Dwight. Secondly, there's not enough pressure to do a trade until the time comes. So ORL could wait it out and see if Dwight really is going to leave ORL for NJ. Either way, LA ain't getting him.

So you see, the only logical places where Dwight can be traded to are to teams under the cap far enough to afford Dwight AND another superstar to pair with him. New Jersey could be a place. Who else? I don't know.

That's not really true. If the threat of Dwight signing with the Nets through FA is there...why wouldn't Orlando try to better their situation via trade? Playing with Deron could be enticing to him. Still though, Orlando will know Dwight's intentions much sooner than the 2012 off-season. They have to. It will never get to that point, because they're not going to risk losing him for nothing. He'll either re-sign or they'll move him.

The Lakers, Bulls, Hawks, Clippers, Thunder...can all make decent trade offers, regardless of their cap situation.

Combinations of talent, picks, and expiring contracts, or close to expiring contracts could be attractive to the Magic.

If the Magic could get a young center through trading him, instead of replacing him with no one, they'd more than likely look to do it.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

It's a business, brother. The name of the game is sales. Gotta keep that fan base happy. It's common sense that they have to get talent back for Howard. It's going to happen, if he's leaving. But...that doesnt mean they'll be bogged down with bad contracts in return.

Say it's the Lakers...you get Bynum and Odom. Bynum's a young building block (one I dont like, mind you), and Odom only has two years left on his deal. And if this was to happen at the deadline...you could potentially be looking at just a half season of Odom.

If it's the Nets...player salary doesnt even need to add up. The Nets are going to have roughly $20 million in cap room. You get Brook Lopez, two decent enough players, some picks, and cap relief.

Orlando can get good young players back for Dwight. It's not like I'm not talking about adding a bunch of scrubs to the team with bad contracts.

It just sucks that there arent a lot of great fits out there. The Clippers/Thunder could make some gaudier offers as well, but I doubt either will. Well the Clippers might...they always seem interested when super stars are available.

It's business, no doubt. But you can't run a business without good foresight. You don't run it wisely without a long term vision. You run day by day, you set yourself up to fail.

You don't just lose Dwight Howard and keep the ball rolling. That's essentially what you're saying the purpose of trading him will ensure. Bynum and Odom do absolutely nothing. There's more risk involved there than having cap space. We want guys who we will want to extend... we want their Bird Rights. Having the Bird Rights for Bynum is just scary... He could end up getting a grand contract and not being healthy to live it out. I think the fan base is equally scared of Grant Hill redux as much as a Shaq redux. Getting Bynum and Odom could keep some seats warm for 2012, but when their contracts expire in the summer, we (I) would not want them back, especially at the cost to keep them. So that only prolongs the rebuilding process longer than it has to be. I repeat... the kind of trade we want back are for players we want to keep long term. Not short term fillers who keep seats warm just to satisfy the fans who were mad at losing Shaq for nothing.

Way too much propaganda that losing Shaq was what hurt Orlando. Not enough blame put on the franchise for failing to rebuild properly. That summer they had 2 lottery picks that they used on Michael Doleac and Matt Harpring. Good grief. Later, they traded Penny for Danny Manning, Pat Garrity and 2 draft picks (that also failed). They messed up on Grant Hill. They traded Ben Wallace. They gave up what ended up being a high lottery pick for Darko. The countless number of failed moves is what hurt the team. Losing Shaq is just the scapegoat. The failures of the franchise after losing him were the real problems.

[M.O.T.H.]

I dont even like the deal...but Bynum can be redeemable, and potentially great if he's healthy. If, if, if...I know, I dont even want him. But it really wouldnt be the worst option. Especially considering you could quickly turn Odom for more talent or cap relief and you could probably include Turk's contract in this Laker deal as well.

That said, I'd still prefer a deal with the Nets or someone else. I'm not even the biggest Lopez fan. But he'd still be a great option to start building with.

You talk about foresight...but if the option did exist to land building blocks for Dwight, and you didnt take them...that could really be a set back, and a missed opportunity. Letting him walk for nothing is just a horrible idea. If you can land young players or even better, a talented young center...they should really do it. It's not easy finding good big men. And getting one for a player you're going to lose anyway, isnt the worst way to get one.

I def. say there isnt the slightest probability that he hits the open FA market.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

That's not really true. If the threat of Dwight signing with the Nets through FA is there...why wouldn't Orlando try to better their situation via trade? Playing with Deron could be enticing to him. Still though, Orlando will know Dwight's intentions much sooner than the 2012 off-season. They have to. It will never get to that point, because they're not going to risk losing him for nothing. He'll either re-sign or they'll move him.

The Lakers, Bulls, Hawks, Clippers, Thunder...can all make decent trade offers, regardless of their cap situation.

Combinations of talent, picks, and expiring contracts, or close to expiring contracts could be attractive to the Magic.

If the Magic could get a young center through trading him, instead of replacing him with no one, they'd more than likely look to do it.

When have we ever seen that? When has a player said trade me to Team X or I'll sign with Team Y (under the cap)? It always ends up with the player going to Team Y.

Let's turn the tables a little bit... Look at the big summer of 2010. This time, let's look at Dwight and the Magic. Did any of those FAs tell their teams trade me to Orlando or I'll sign with (team x with cap space)? Wouldn't Lebron want to pair with Dwight? How about D-Wade, Joe Johnson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer, Dirk, David Lee...? Surely, we would've given up anyone on the roster outside of Howard for one of those guys if we could've.

BUT we didn't have the cap space, so those teams never gave us the time of day to work out a trade. The only teams they were scared of were those with cap space. ...and ultimately the teams with cap got the player.

Melo went to NY because NY had the money to sign him outright in the offseason. The only other team in the trade race was NJ.... the only other team with space. Denver didn't trade Melo to Orlando or any other team willing to pawn off players. Why? There was no threat. They knew Melo wouldn't sign for the MLE.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

I dont even like the deal...but Bynum can be redeemable, and potentially great if he's healthy. If, if, if...I know, I dont even want him. But it really wouldnt be the worst option. Especially considering you could quickly turn Odom for more talent or cap relief and you could probably include Turk's contract in this Laker deal as well.

That said, I'd still prefer a deal with the Nets or someone else. I'm not even the biggest Lopez fan. But he'd still be a great option to start building with.

You talk about foresight...but if the option did exist to land building blocks for Dwight, and you didnt take them...that could really be a set back, and a missed opportunity. Letting him walk for nothing is just a horrible idea. If you can land young players or even better, a talented young center...they should really do it. It's not easy finding good big men.

I def. say there isnt the slightest probability that he hits the open FA market.

For the Nets and Lopez I agreed that the possibility exists. But LA and other teams above the cap can keep dreaming.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

When have we ever seen that? When has a player said trade me to Team X or I'll sign with Team Y (under the cap)? It always ends up with the player going to Team Y.

Let's turn the tables a little bit... Look at the big summer of 2010. This time, let's look at Dwight and the Magic. Did any of those FAs tell their teams trade me to Orlando or I'll sign with (team x with cap space)? Wouldn't Lebron want to pair with Dwight? How about D-Wade, Joe Johnson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer, Dirk, David Lee...? Surely, we would've given up anyone on the roster outside of Howard for one of those guys if we could've.

BUT we didn't have the cap space, so those teams never gave us the time of day to work out a trade. The only teams they were scared of were those with cap space. ...and ultimately the teams with cap got the player.

Melo went to NY because NY had the money to sign him outright in the offseason. The only other team in the trade race was NJ.... the only other team with space. Denver didn't trade Melo to Orlando or any other team willing to pawn off players. Why? There was no threat. They knew Melo wouldn't sign for the MLE.

Meh. If Dwight made it known that he wanted to be moved, and wouldnt be back in Orlando. You already know that the Nets have the money in the off-season and Deron Williams on the roster. The Magic could just as easily decide to trade him to the team of their choosing, for the players they want. Say they want Bynum more than they want Lopez, and Dwight has a list of a few teams that he'd sign an extension with, the Lakers being one of them. They'd have the flexibility to trade with a number of teams. Dwight may very well say that he refuses to sign with Orlando in the off-season. What then? You know he's more than likely taking that cash to play in Jersey. You lose him for nothing, when you could have moved him to what's going to be a number of callers, for some good compensation.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Meh. If Dwight made it known that he wanted to be moved, and wouldnt be back in Orlando. You already know that the Nets have the money in the off-season and Deron Williams on the roster. The Magic could just as easily decide to trade him to the team of their choosing, for the players they want. Say they want Bynum more than they want Lopez, and Dwight has a list of a few teams that he'd sign an extension with, the Lakers being one of them. They'd have the flexibility to trade with a number of teams. Dwight may very well say that he refuses to sign with Orlando in the off-season. What then? You know he's more than likely taking that cash to play in Jersey. You lose him for nothing, when you could have moved him to what's going to be a number of callers.

First off, Dwight has only hinted at the opposite of what you're saying he will say.

Secondly, this doesn't happen in the NBA, and you can't find an example where it ever has. If you or anyone else can, then I'll stand corrected.

Third, you're still not getting it. The Magic can't just decide to trade him to a team of their choosing. Dwight will also have to agree to sign an extension with them or the team will have given up valuable trade assets for a rental. They won't do that. For a trade to work with another team over the cap, it has to make sense for all 3 parties. Leave LA out. Those LA beat writers are just dreaming. They have nothing we want. Dwight can threaten to leave to NJ, but he still ends up in NJ and not LA. In any trade... Orlando has to get elite young talent that they can use Bird Rights on to resign. Otherwise it's better just to get the cap savings ourselves. Who's gonna give up elite young talent? The list is slim to none. Remember, if this team is over the cap, then the salaries have to match and still make sense for Orlando to want to take on those contracts.

In the end you'll see. The only destinations that Howard will/could get traded to are those who are far enough under the cap to sign him and pair him up with another superstar.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

First off, Dwight has only hinted at the opposite of what you're saying he will say.

Secondly, this doesn't happen in the NBA, and you can't find an example where it ever has. If you or anyone else can, then I'll stand corrected.

Third, you're still not getting it. The Magic can't just decide to trade him to a team of their choosing. Dwight will also have to agree to sign an extension with them or the team will have given up valuable trade assets for a rental. They won't do that. For a trade to work with another team over the cap, it has to make sense for all 3 parties. Leave LA out. Those LA beat writers are just dreaming. They have nothing we want. Dwight can threaten to leave to NJ, but he still ends up in NJ and not LA. In any trade... Orlando has to get elite young talent that they can use Bird Rights on to resign. Otherwise it's better just to get the cap savings ourselves. Who's gonna give up elite young talent? The list is slim to none. Remember, if this team is over the cap, then the salaries have to match and still make sense for Orlando to want to take on those contracts.

In the end you'll see. The only destinations that Howard will/could get traded to are those who are far enough under the cap to sign him and pair him up with another superstar.

You didnt fully comprehend my post. I stated as much. Maybe it was worded oddly, but I meant a team of their chooising from a list Dwight gives them. I did say that up there. Dwight's list and extension...all that good stuff. It's in there.

And the funny thing is...I still think Dwight will re-sign I've said this a billion times. Most dont agree with that, though. Many believe he's already initiating his way out, by targeting the Orlando Sentinel.

As for understanding the business end of the league...I know the ins and outs of it all. You're kidding yourself if you think he leaves for nothing. And who's to say the Lakers dont have assets Orlando wouldn't want? You realize, that the Lakers and Nuggets discussed a Melo trade last year, which would have included Bynum. The Nuggets didnt want Odom or Artest or something like that. Even though he's an injury risk...a lot of people still view Bynum as a rather valuable trade chip. So that deal didnt happen...but it's the same type of thing we're discussing here. The Lakers in no way had any cap room to sign him in the off-season. That doesnt mean you couldnt get things to work, financially.

If Dwight informs Orlando that he wants out this off-season, or before the deadline...the Nets will just be one of many team calling for Dwight. I see no way that Dwight doesnt give Orlando a concrete answer before the 2011-2012 trade deadline. There's a lot at stake here...for the franchise, for SVG, for Otis Smith, and for the fans.

[M.O.T.H.]

We totally hijacked this thread again. lol. And the sad thing is, I think we both think he's staying, anyway. How productive. haha.

[Raiderz4Life]

Its cool though...idk bout anyone else but...I rather enjoyed that discussion between MOTH and D-Unit lol

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

We totally hijacked this thread again. lol. And the sad thing is, I think we both think he's staying, anyway. How productive. haha.

So funny. I think he is definitely staying. but we do what we do. I wouldn't want it any other way. :)

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

Its cool though...idk bout anyone else but...I rather enjoyed that discussion between MOTH and D-Unit lol

Probably in the minority...D and I have had a habit of hijacking threads over the years.

[SickwithIt1010]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

So funny. I think he is definitely staying. but we do what we do. I wouldn't want it any other way. :)

He actually looks like hes in somewhat decent shape in that video.

[M.O.T.H.]

He used to be. I cant believe how bad he looks now. It's not as bad as when he ballooned up to about 400 lbs when he got injured on the Lakers. But he looks terrible.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

You didnt fully comprehend my post. I stated as much. Maybe it was worded oddly, but I meant a team of their chooising from a list Dwight gives them. I did say that up there. Dwight's list and extension...all that good stuff. It's in there.

And the funny thing is...I still think Dwight will re-sign I've said this a billion times. Most dont agree with that, though. Many believe he's already initiating his way out, by targeting the Orlando Sentinel.

As for understanding the business end of the league...I know the ins and outs of it all. You're kidding yourself if you think he leaves for nothing. And who's to say the Lakers dont have assets Orlando wouldn't want? You realize, that the Lakers and Nuggets discussed a Melo trade last year, which would have included Bynum. The Nuggets didnt want Odom or Artest or something like that. Even though he's an injury risk...a lot of people still view Bynum as a rather valuable trade chip. So that deal didnt happen...but it's the same type of thing we're discussing here. The Lakers in no way had any cap room to sign him in the off-season. That doesnt mean you couldnt get things to work, financially.

If Dwight informs Orlando that he wants out this off-season, or before the deadline...the Nets will just be one of many team calling for Dwight. I see no way that Dwight doesnt give Orlando a concrete answer before the 2011-2012 trade deadline. There's a lot at stake here...for the franchise, for SVG, for Otis Smith, and for the fans.

My bad, I guess I didn't catch it right.

Here's one scary thought... if the Hornets can dump Okafor's contract (not easy, but if they can) for expiring(s)... then they are a team that could steal Dwight away and pair him with CP3.

Orlando is in a mess for sure.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

It would obviously have to start with Brook Lopez + for him. I dont think you want that.

I dont even know why Ric Bucher mentioned the Mavs as a possibile destination. They have absolutely nothing to offer.

I still think he stays. But if not, you could cross off the Mavs right now. I just dont want anything the Lakers or Bulls could offer Orlando. bleh.

I would absolutely give up Bropez if it meant having DWill-Morrow-Dwight. absolutely

[yo123]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

My bad, I guess I didn't catch it right.

Here's one scary thought... if the Hornets can dump Okafor's contract (not easy, but if they can) for expiring(s)... then they are a team that could steal Dwight away and pair him with CP3.

Orlando is in a mess for sure.

Expirings are great and all, but the Hornets still have absolutely nothing else to offer the Magic other than David West coming off a serious injury.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

I would absolutely give up Bropez if it meant having DWill-Morrow-Dwight. absolutely

I'd imagine Morrow, may have to be involved as well. But not necessarily, I guess. But getting Morrow and James on top of Bropez would at least be something for Orlando. And as far as fits go, assuming Orlando would run a similar scheme still...Morrow is a great fit.

I do agree with what STRIP said previously, to a point. I mean, I prefer Morrow to Redick...but if we're rebuilding, I'd like to see Clark be a guy that we give a chance to be a key part of that process. Neither Morrow or James are great players...although, I do have a man crush on Morrow. I just wish you guys had more young guys to offer, or that lottery pick. haha. Bropez, and a **** ton of cap relief, at least.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by yo123

Expirings are great and all, but the Hornets still have absolutely nothing else to offer the Magic other than David West coming off a serious injury.

No, you misunderstood me. They can sign Dwight outright in FA if they clear their books by dumping Okafor's contract somehow. Think along the lines of what Miami did with Beasley. If a team offers NOR a 2nd round pick in the year 2050, NOR just might take it!

Wasn't talking about a trade between NOR and ORL at all.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

I'd imagine Morrow, may have to be involved as well. But not necessarily, I guess. But getting Morrow and James on top of Bropez would at least be something for Orlando. And as far as fits go, assuming Orlando would run a similar scheme still...Morrow is a great fit.

I do agree with what STRIP said previously, to a point. I mean, I prefer Morrow to Redick...but if we're rebuilding, I'd like to see Clark be a guy that we give a chance to be a key part of that process. Neither Morrow or James are great players...although, I do have a man crush on Morrow. I just wish you guys had more young guys to offer, or that lottery pick. haha. Bropez, and a **** ton of cap relief, at least.

Earl Clark is a key piece to the future. I honestly feel that way.

[D-Unit]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=6530352

Interesting article about the CBA negotiations.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Earl Clark is a key piece to the future. I honestly feel that way.

I hope so. Would have been nice to get him on the floor more this year. Should have never taken him out of the rotation. Sure his offensive game needs polishing, but all he did was play well, given the opportunity. Hopefully he'll get a lot more PT next year.

This off-season is going to be incredibly interesting.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

I hope so. Would have been nice to get him on the floor more this year. Should have never taken him out of the rotation. Sure his offensive game needs polishing, but all he did was play well, given the opportunity. Hopefully he'll get a lot more PT next year.

This off-season is going to be incredibly interesting.

Maybe keeping him out was a way to lower his market value in FA.

Otherwise, it's just another dumb move by Stan. Who I still hope gets fired.

[fenikz]

Denver is a team people shouldn't sleep on, 2 lottery picks with alot of young tradeable pieces(Gallo, Mozgov, Afflalo, Chandler, Koufos) and 2011 & 2012 expirings(Martin, Nene, Felton, Smith)


and Earl Clark has no offensive game, sure he can dribble as good as any big man in the NBA but that's useless without the ability to finish

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by fenikz

Earl Clark has no offensive game, sure he can dribble as good as any big man in the NBA but that's useless without the ability to finish

It's called player development. It happens. If the Magic gave up on Dwight Howard before he developed his offensive game...