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Old 09-26-2012, 10:05 PM    (permalink
SickwithIt1010
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Absolutely, as recently as a few years ago Ray was a very solid defender. There was still a reason you never saw his Sonics/Bucks teams in the finals though. He was never cut out to be a go to player on a championship team, something that Wade proved that he was.
Didnt that Bucks team go 7 games in the ECF one year, though? Maybe it was just the 2nd round, but I seem to remember an epic 7 game series with the 6ers I think.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:07 PM    (permalink
jballa838
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Did you read what I said? I said championship team. Where did you prove me wrong there?

I never said he couldn't carry a team to success, that's a ridiculous strawman. I said he couldn't carry a team to a title.
Yeah, and that's the most ridiculous and lazy argument anyone can make. It's a team sport and the only position that Seattle had an advantage at in that series was Shooting Guard, and that wasn't enough to overcome how much better Parker is that Ridnour, Duncan was than Reggie Evans and Horry was than Jerome James. To insinuate that the Sonics could have done any better with any version of really any Shooting Guard ever (sans 1996 MJ) is ridiculous. The Spurs were the better team at 4 of 5 positions.

But yeah, he couldn't carry his team to a title because he couldn't overcome one of the best Power Forwards to ever play the game and his team that was ridiculously better in every aspect other than shooting guard.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Didnt that Bucks team go 7 games in the ECF one year, though? Maybe it was just the 2nd round, but I seem to remember an epic 7 game series with the 6ers I think.
Again, I'm not arguing that he wasn't a great player and that he didn't play on some good teams. We're arguing Wade vs. Allen in this situation, and whether or not they could be the best player on a team that won the finals. Wade did that and Allen never could.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Didnt that Bucks team go 7 games in the ECF one year, though? Maybe it was just the 2nd round, but I seem to remember an epic 7 game series with the 6ers I think.
2000-2001 they lost in 7. He shot 47% from 3 in the play-offs. But, you know, if you don't win a title with Shaq, you can't be a top 5 shooting guard.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, and that's the most ridiculous and lazy argument anyone can make. It's a team sport and the only position that Seattle had an advantage at in that series was Shooting Guard, and that wasn't enough to overcome how much better Parker is that Ridnour, Duncan was than Reggie Evans and Horry was than Jerome James. To insinuate that the Sonics could have done any better with any version of really any Shooting Guard ever (sans 1996 MJ) is ridiculous. The Spurs were the better team at 4 of 5 positions.

But yeah, he couldn't carry his team to a title because he couldn't overcome one of the best Power Forwards to ever play the game and his team that was ridiculously better in every aspect other than shooting guard.
Out of the 4 main sports basketball has always been the one sport that one player could elevate the team above what they're normally capable of. MJ did it, Kobe has always done it, Wade did it. Dirk did it just two years ago.

Allen never even made the finals. When you're talking about guys that are this freaking good you have to split hairs like this.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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2000-2001 they lost in 7. He shot 47% from 3 in the play-offs. But, you know, if you don't win a title with Shaq, you can't be a top 5 shooting guard.
Wade won that finals. Bad officiating yes, he was still unbelievable and the best player on the floor by far.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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2000-2001 they lost in 7. He shot 47% from 3 in the play-offs. But, you know, if you don't win a title with Shaq, you can't be a top 5 shooting guard.
Let's just ignore the fact that Wade has been a top 5 player for 7 years or so now, is a much better defender, a better passer, a better scorer, and a better rebounder.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Suns new court and logo, have to think new uniforms are coming too

http://www.nba.com/suns/video/suns-unveil-new-court
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Suns new court and logo, have to think new uniforms are coming too

http://www.nba.com/suns/video/suns-unveil-new-court
Nice court but I don't like the logo. I've always liked the one they already had.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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Again, I'm not arguing that he wasn't a great player and that he didn't play on some good teams. We're arguing Wade vs. Allen in this situation, and whether or not they could be the best player on a team that won the finals. Wade did that and Allen never could.
He won with Shaquille O'Neal, one of the best centers ever who was still effective.

This is like saying one chef is better than another one because he essentially reheated last night's leftovers and sprinkled some seasoning salt on it as opposed to the guy who had to butcher the cow himself, then tenderize the meat, and then cook it, while also preparing a side meal with some awful store bought vegetables. Of course the first chef's meal is going to end up with a better result, but the meat won't taste better than the guy who had to do it all on his own. The side ingredients are just so much better.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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He won with Shaquille O'Neal, one of the best centers ever who was still effective.

This is like saying one chef is better than another one because he essentially reheated last night's leftovers and sprinkled some seasoning salt on it as opposed to the guy who had to butcher the cow himself, then tenderize the meat, and then cook it, while also preparing a side meal with some awful store bought vegetables. Of course the first chef's meal is going to end up with a better result, but the meat won't taste better than the guy who had to do it all on his own. The side ingredients are just so much better.
Wade beats him in stats, on court success, awards, and skill set. What more do you want here? Ray Allen is a better shooter, that is it.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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Again, I'm not arguing that he wasn't a great player and that he didn't play on some good teams. We're arguing Wade vs. Allen in this situation, and whether or not they could be the best player on a team that won the finals. Wade did that and Allen never could.
I was more trying to initiate conversation about the series, haha.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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He won with Shaquille O'Neal, one of the best centers ever who was still effective.

This is like saying one chef is better than another one because he essentially reheated last night's leftovers and sprinkled some seasoning salt on it as opposed to the guy who had to butcher the cow himself, then tenderize the meat, and then cook it, while also preparing a side meal with some awful store bought vegetables. Of course the first chef's meal is going to end up with a better result, but the meat won't taste better than the guy who had to do it all on his own. The side ingredients are just so much better.

Dude.....what?

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Wade beats him in stats, on court success, awards, and skill set. What more do you want here? Ray Allen is a better shooter, that is it.
Not true. Ray is also apparently better at butchering cows.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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I would comfortably put D-Wade in the top 4 SG ever along with MJ, Kobe and Jerry West. He's been an elite player on both ends of the floor his entire career. Not to mention his '06 playoff run is arguably the greatest individual playoff run of all-time.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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Nice court but I don't like the logo. I've always liked the one they already had.
From a design standpoint I like it, it's the same upside down as right side up and we seem to be going away from the purple which hopefully means more black
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Oh and just a random little fact that may not interest anyone, but the Lakers will wear black uniforms in 4 games this season.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone is, just the Heat style blackout jerseys

But the Suns will also be wearing the 90's style blacks
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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Let's just ignore the fact that Wade has been a top 5 player for 7 years or so now, is a much better defender, a better passer, a better scorer, and a better rebounder.
Let's just discount Ray Allen from 2000 to 2007 because nobody saw it, but he was at just as high of level as Wade was. He just didn't play in a glamorous market or on a good team.

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Wade won that finals. Bad officiating yes, he was still unbelievable and the best player on the floor by far.
Ray Allen's 2001 Playoff Stats: 42.7 MPG, 25.1 PPG, 47.7% from the field, 47.9% from 3, 91.9% from the free throw line, 4.1 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 1.3 steals, and only 2.4 turnovers per game.

Ray Allen's 2005 Playoff Stats: 39.6 MPG, 26.5 PPG, 47.4% FG, 37.8% 3P%, 88.9% from the freethrow line, 4.3 reb, 3.9 assists and 3.1 turnovers, with half of those games matching up against Bruce Bowen, one of the best defenders of all time.

But he didn't win it all, so those points aren't valid, right?
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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The last 4 are just stupid. I'll always love Iverson but he was an inefficient chucker and played in one of the worst conferences of all time, Reggie was a guy who never took his team to the next level, Ray Allen was never a guy who could be the number 1 scorer on a championship team, and Bernard King didn't do it for long enough.

And I missed Maravich which is just an unbelievably bad choice unless we're factoring in college success for some reason.
Nah, Reggie had a legit case, like a lot of people he got destroyed by Jordan's Bulls. I can see the case for Allen and Iverson to. Bernard King was a SF though, loved him, but he wasn't a SG.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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Nah, Reggie had a legit case, like a lot of people he got destroyed by Jordan's Bulls. I can see the case for Allen and Iverson to. Bernard King was a SF though, loved him, but he wasn't a SG.
Reggie probably has a better case than I was giving him credit for. Still wouldn't put him over Wade though.

Iverson though...I just don't get. What did he do better than Wade does?
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Let's just discount Ray Allen from 2000 to 2007 because nobody saw it, but he was at just as high of level as Wade was. He just didn't play in a glamorous market or on a good team.



Ray Allen's 2001 Playoff Stats: 42.7 MPG, 25.1 PPG, 47.7% from the field, 47.9% from 3, 91.9% from the free throw line, 4.1 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 1.3 steals, and only 2.4 turnovers per game.

Ray Allen's 2005 Playoff Stats: 39.6 MPG, 26.5 PPG, 47.4% FG, 37.8% 3P%, 88.9% from the freethrow line, 4.3 reb, 3.9 assists and 3.1 turnovers, with half of those games matching up against Bruce Bowen, one of the best defenders of all time.

But he didn't win it all, so those points aren't valid, right?
If you're just going to keep quoting his nba.com stats page then I think we can just be done here. I know he was a good player. Never have argued that. When you're talking about guys that are closely matched it's ridiculous to not look at championship rings. But you're not going to be convinced and I'm not either so whatever.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Reggie probably has a better case than I was giving him credit for. Still wouldn't put him over Wade though.

Iverson though...I just don't get. What did he do better than Wade does?
Iverson gets love for how much of the offensive burden he had to carry on mediocre teams. Wade's successes have come with pre-washed-up Shaq and now Lebron and Bosh, AI never had anyone even close to that good on his teams and still carried a crap squad to the finals.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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If you're just going to keep quoting his nba.com stats page then I think we can just be done here. I know he was a good player. Never have argued that. When you're talking about guys as closely matched it's ridiculous to not look at championship rings. But you're not going to be convinced and I'm not either so whatever.
Agree to disagree. I wasn't going to get heated until I saw the rings debate, which causes a Pavlovian response where all I see is red.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 09-26-2012, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Iverson gets love for how much of the offensive burden he had to carry on mediocre teams. Wade's successes have come with pre-washed-up Shaq and now Lebron and Bosh, AI never had anyone even close to that good on his teams and still carried a crap squad to the finals.
While that's true, I just can't get over the crap teams he had to beat to get there. I think that evens it out to an extent.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Suns new court and logo, have to think new uniforms are coming too

http://www.nba.com/suns/video/suns-unveil-new-court
i like how it's SUNS upside-down and downside-up.
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