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Old 06-25-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
nepg
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Originally Posted by mqtirishfan View Post
Doc Rivers, if nepg is to be believed.
Yup.

They had KG, Pierce, and Ray Allen policing the rest of the roster and holding everyone accountable. They had Tom Thibodeau running the defense. Ainge cut the roster down the point where it was nearly impossible for Doc to run 10-12 man rotations like he was known for doing the entirety of his career prior to 07/08.

Doc is terrible with young players and basically just refuses to deal with them. The unrelationship he has with Rondo is telling on how little positive impact Rivers has had on Rondo. He took forever to give Bradley a chance, and only played Sullinger because they had no other bigs left when Wilcox got hurt. Scoff at Bill Walker all you want, but the C's needed a swingman that could shoot and play defense off the bench. They had Walker (who was touted as a defensive prospect). They refused to play him. They package him in a trade for Nate ******* Robinson and Walker just goes off in New York once he got some playing time.

Going back to before the 06-07 season, Doc was known for having terrible rotations, playing the wrong guys at the wrong times, failing to recognize mismatches, and mismanaging the game. People conveniently forget the Indiana Pacers series that was quite obviously lost because Doc is so bad.

None of that ever changed. The roster just got smaller so he couldn't **** up as bad. He still managed to play Glen Davis and Brian Scalabrine over Powe in the regular season and, particularly, the playoffs. Powe would go beast mode and then not even play the next game in lieu of Big Baby Turnover and the Artist Formerly Known As the Ginger Who Came In During Garbage Time For the Nets...and afterwards known as the Artist Known As the Ginger Who Came In During Garbage Time For the Bulls.

What does Doc do well? What's changed about him since he was a fuckawful coach 6 years ago?
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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First of all, what the hell is an unrelationship? Secondly, I think Doc did a fantastic job with what he had. He won a ring and was successfully with some aging players. That's not always very easy.

Also, Rondo, by all accounts, is a complete ******* asshole who doesn't like taking orders or coaching from anyone. It's probably why, for as good as he is, his game stays pretty much the same year after year.

Your insistence to include Bill Walker as some meaningful point in your argument is hilarious because Bill Walker is god awful.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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God Tier
Popovich

Meh Tier
Thibodeau
Rivers
Carlisle
Spoelstra

**** Tier
Everyone else
ill bring this back up
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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First of all, what the hell is an unrelationship? Secondly, I think Doc did a fantastic job with what he had. He won a ring and was successfully with some aging players. That's not always very easy.

Also, Rondo, by all accounts, is a complete ******* asshole who doesn't like taking orders or coaching from anyone. It's probably why, for as good as he is, his game stays pretty much the same year after year.

Your insistence to include Bill Walker as some meaningful point in your argument is hilarious because Bill Walker is god awful.
The point with Bill Walker is that Doc won't give young players a chance to play and there's no easy they'll get better if they don't play...and the team has no way of telling what they've for with a guy unless he gets a chance. Bill Walker played the exact position/role the team lacked. He never got a chance with Boston. He goes to New York and end up being what the C's needed that year. That it was Bill Walker is a minor detail.

Yes, Rondo is a jerk, apparently. But so is Doc.

The whole point is that everyone is all over Doc's wiener when he really isn't that special.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:31 AM    (permalink
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The Celtics rosters before the 07 offseason were horrible. Those were tank teams.

Let's also stop pretending like not playing Leon Powe and Bill Walker early was a crime. These are 2nd round rookie players. How many of those guys get significant minutes in the league? Powe became a significant contributor off the bench in only his 2nd year in the league (the championship year). Bill Walker simply sucked.

Doc got Pierce/KG/Ray a championship in their first year together. Everybody thought it would take them a while to gel, but that wasn't the case under Doc. Even Miami didn't win it all in their first year. Doc then took a old/hobbled Celtics team to Game 7 of the 2010 Finals and had another old/hobbled team take Miami to 7 games in the ECF.

Doc is a master motivator that players love to play under. He's not perfect, but he's easily a top 5 coach in the league.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:14 AM    (permalink
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Bill walker went off in new york? Dudes not even in the league anymore. Powe? Srsly? Look at the names you're using and pulling straws with. You're also focusing on like one season from 6 years ago. So coaches can't improve? Settle down and learn more about their roster? Make adjustments?
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:56 AM    (permalink
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Spo>>>>>>>>
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Vogel is definitely meh tier.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Bill walker went off in new york? Dudes not even in the league anymore. Powe? Srsly? Look at the names you're using and pulling straws with. You're also focusing on like one season from 6 years ago. So coaches can't improve? Settle down and learn more about their roster? Make adjustments?
Those were just examples. You're focusing way too much on the names and what the players ended up being (Powe was always injured, Walker - who knows). It also goes back to 04-05, 05-06, 06-07. They had really solid teams in 04-05 and 05-06. Not championship caliber, but 04-05 was good enough to probably get to the ECC. That was a good team. Doc couldn't control Walker, Payton, and Davis. He ran 10-11 man rotations. He was just bad.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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People can, you know, get better at stuff.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Those were just examples. You're focusing way too much on the names and what the players ended up being (Powe was always injured, Walker - who knows).
That's because your examples suck and actually work against you. Deciding that Bill Walker was not rotation-worthy is not an example of Doc being a bad coach. He was lost on both sides of the ball, and would have hurt the team if he played. This wasn't a rebuilding team, it was a contender. You don't play 2nd round rookies on contending teams unless they have some sort of skill that makes them a valuable role player.

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It also goes back to 04-05, 05-06, 06-07. They had really solid teams in 04-05 and 05-06. Not championship caliber, but 04-05 was good enough to probably get to the ECC. That was a good team. Doc couldn't control Walker, Payton, and Davis. He ran 10-11 man rotations. He was just bad.
That '04 team lost in 7 to a pretty decent Pacers squad, with Antoine Walker and Ricky Davis as the team's second and third best players, and Raef LaFrentz starting. The other two teams were awful, awful teams.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Why do people love guys when they are on their teams and then bash them when they aren't?
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Don't really recall nepg either way before now, but back in the day Doc clearly wasn't thought of as any type of a good coach until KG and Ray got there.

Coaches are entirely dependant on the players they have, and not necessarily just good vs bad players, but the players fitting that coach. Doc wasn't a good coach before KG, but since he's gotten there Doc has been one of the best coaches. The Heat were solid since Spo took over but exploded since LeBron got here, and have been insane the past 2 seasons. Pringles was good with the Suns, but if he doesn't have something that fits his philosphy he's gonna look like ****. Thibs has all an world defense but his rotations are ****. Some coaches will take young players and get a lot out of them, and others can take those mature groups and build championship teams from them. But maybe the coach who builds young teams can't win with a mature group and the championship builder can't develop a younger group.

Basketball is weird because of the guaranteed contracts and the small teams, coaches rarely get a perfect fit for what they're going to want as a team, where as football you can literally build the entire team to your philosophy. Good coaches are going to get good to great results from players that fit what they can do, and great coaches are going to adapt and mold themselves (and their players) to get great results regardless of what they start with.

I gotta go to work.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Doc wasn't considered a good coach on his way out of Orlando. They thought he did alright and blamed injuries on his lack of success so he deserved another shot which he got with Boston.
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Why do people love guys when they are on their teams and then bash them when they aren't?
I dislike pretty much all of the Pistons except Drummond and Monroe..I'd like Maxiell more if he was a cheaper bench player. Everyone else can bugger off.
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Last season I could barely watch the Pistons. I love Dumars, but I think the game might have passed him by.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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this is whack:

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Doc Rivers' compensation agreement states that Celtics and Clippers can't exchange players until the end of the '13-'14 season, source says.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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I don't get the NBA. So the Clippers/Celtics can't make a transaction for a year because it might possibly somehow be connected to Doc Rivers. No proof that it would be, but just that it might, it can't happen. WTF? Then why for a year? Why not for 5 years? I just don't understand what ground rules the NBA is going off of when they step in for these trades, it seems like all speculation, rumor, and subjectiveness.


I'm wondering if the rumors of this deal didn't break before hand, and then trades came up how would they act?
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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So, they can involve a 3rd team. Trade KG to said third team and third team trades to Clip.

Muhaahahh loop holes.

LOL, if this doesn't happen, chances of Paul staying? 80%?
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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That's another thing I meant to ask. So what happens if Pierce gets bought out and the Clippers sign him. They block that too? Seems like they don't have any restraint as to their power in getting in the way whenever they want to so...
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I still don't see how the league can do this, and still allow the Clippers to re-sign Chris Paul. If the Clippers got Rivers so that they could re-sign Paul, how is that any different than the Clippers getting KG because they got Rivers?
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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I understand where the league is coming from on discouraging side by side deals, but their hand stance in this instance is pretty inconsistent with past deals. Plenty of wink wink deals have gone down in the past.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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My question is whether Rivers new about it before he agreed to the trade. Did he really just bail on KG like that?
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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It's my understanding that the league has told them the whole time that if they even suspect that Rivers was packaged with players in separate deals then they won't allow the deal. If this is right, being that the rule is in the new CBA I don't understand the backlash here.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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It sucks because both teams were really stupid about letting **** leak before they had anything in place. But yeah, I can't say I really disagree with what the league did there.
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