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View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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ADVANCED STATS: long 2s suck
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thenewfeature06 View Post
Just a little preview of a mock draft.. this is the first one so I am just playing around with it atm.

2014 NBA Mock Draft
1. Philadelphia 76ers Jabari Parker/Freshman Combo Forward Duke
2. Milwaukee Bucks Andrew Wiggins/Freshman SG/SF Kansas
3. Orlando Magic Marcus Smart/Sophomore PG/SG Oklahoma State
4. Boston Celtics Joel Embiid/Freshman C Kansas
5. Los Angeles Lakers Dante Exum PG/SG Australia
6. Sacramento Kings Julius Randle/Freshman PF Kentucky
7. Utah Jazz Noah Vonleh/Freshman F Indiana
8. Cleveland Cavaliers Rodney Hood/Sophomore F Duke
9. Philadelphia 76ers (New Orleans) Gary Harris/Sophomore SG Michigan State
10. Atlanta Hawks Aaron Gordon/Freshman SF/PF Arizona
I could do that. If we aren't picking in the top 3 then Exum is my choice.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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uhm, what? The Spurs, outside of having at least one HOF big man for the past like 20 years, also have Pop and his system which is based off of selflessness and his players and teams have all bought into it. The Spurs are a horrible example.

The Rockets have the best center in the game, a top 5 SG, and sex Parsons. Advanced stats didn't get them that talent.

The Raptors are your only real example and they're not even really that good. They've got some really good talents with DeRozan developing and Kyle Lowry being the best guard in the east.

What I think is happening is that people are confusing selfless basketball and ball movement with stats and efficiency. This ****'s been around for ever and people are now putting stats alongside with these notions and ideologies and acting like these advanced metrics are creating these mentalities which is absurd.

I guess I just don't really understand it. It's a new craze that I think is just new ways to label what's been happening for decades. It's the mentality of "they've used advanced stats exclusively to get here etc etc" is what's absolutely absurd to me.
If you don't think the Spurs and Rockets are good examples then, yeah, you don't understand it.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rob S View Post
If you don't think the Spurs and Rockets are good examples then, yeah, you don't understand it.
The spurs are an awful example because they've been doing the same stuff for literally two decades, before all this advanced metrics stuff came to this circle jerk obsessive level.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Guys remember when I said Lowry was playing like a top 5 pg and you all laughed at me?
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by scottyboy View Post
The spurs are an awful example because they've been doing the same stuff for literally two decades, before all this advanced metrics stuff came to this circle jerk obsessive level.
It's called early adoption.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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It's called early adoption.
It's the same thing that John Wooden did. These philosophies existed before the metrics. Now people are using metrics, trying to say that these ideologies stemmed from the metrics. You don't need these numbers to know how to build a team and analyze skillsets. This new adoption of them is taking away the elements that tackle discussed on the last page and the same biggest qualm I have with them, such as ball movement, boxing out, floor spacing, setting screens, hustle, help defense, defensive rotations etc. They take out the human elements of the game, virtually. To think that the spurs adopts this philosophy because of the metrics in the late 90s is ridiculous
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Jodie Meeks is going bananas.

6 3 pointers and 36 in the third.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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It's not just about numbers, that's what you don't get. It's about utilizing all of the tools available to you to be successful. That is the hallmark of any successful team. Metrics are a massive part of that now and if a front office doesn't value them highly, they are quite simply behind the curve and at a major disadvantage because of it. The Spurs understood the value of the 3 before others, valued defense higher than others, made a calculated decision to punt offensive rebounding, actually drafted foreign players, etc.....it's not just numbers, it's not being close minded and ignorant to things that can make your team better. Analytics are a massive part of that.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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How do you think the Spurs got Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard? Using college based analytics.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Russell Westbrook...holy crap is he a bad fit for the Thunder. They've been a significantly worse team since he's been back.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
How do you think the Spurs got Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard? Using college based analytics.
They drafted them...thats how.

Analytics aren't the reason those guys are Spurs...its because teams passed on them.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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They drafted them...thats how.

Analytics aren't the reason those guys are Spurs...its because teams passed on them.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone would say that looking back at it that Leonard should have gone higher...but analytics aren't the reason he's a spur and not playing for someone else, there are plenty of teams that could have drafted him for that reason.
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Originally Posted by 49erNation85 View Post
I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.

Last edited by SickwithIt1010 : 03-09-2014 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rob S View Post
It's not just about numbers, that's what you don't get. It's about utilizing all of the tools available to you to be successful. That is the hallmark of any successful team. Metrics are a massive part of that now and if a front office doesn't value them highly, they are quite simply behind the curve and at a major disadvantage because of it. The Spurs understood the value of the 3 before others, valued defense higher than others, made a calculated decision to punt offensive rebounding, actually drafted foreign players, etc.....it's not just numbers, it's not being close minded and ignorant to things that can make your team better. Analytics are a massive part of that.
My problem isn't with metrics as a whole, it's this new fad of people obsessing over them and saying they're the reason for teams success and making metrics seem like the GOAT of basketball in general.

And see, things like valuing defense has absolutely nothing to do with advanced metrics even a little bit. It's not even a new thing. Good basketball teams and strategists and coaches have valued defense. Yes, there are outliers, but that's a silly notion. It's not about being closed minded, that's not what's being discussed here, it's the obsession with the numbers and this sudden mentality that these metrics are driving the simplest of basketball philosophies such as defense. It's ridiculous to think that that stemmed from metrics and analytics.


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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
How do you think the Spurs got Danny Green and Kawhi Leonard? Using college based analytics.

This might be the worst post you've ever had. Anyone who watched Kawhi Leonard knew that he was an incredible defender and had a high basketball IQ. Saying the Spurs drafted him based on purely analytics is ridiculous. Same with signing Green. Dude did literally everything while at UNC. The Spurs didn't even draft him. So that's absolutely ridiculous.

The Spurs were ahead of the curve in a number of ways, yes, especially Rob's aforementioned point in foreign players but that's got nothing to do with analytics.

Also, what's being completely overlooked is the system that these metric numbers have to fit in. Not every player is going to buy into the system of defense, ball movement and efficiency, which is where coaching comes in. But we all know how the majority of the board here feels about the impact of coaching...
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone would say that looking back at it that Leonard should have gone higher...but analytics aren't the reason he's a spur and not playing for someone else, there are plenty of teams that could have drafted him for that reason.
Not really. He wasn't THAT highly regarded, but the Spurs liked his efficiency in college which relied heavily on his rebounding, which has translated incredibly well.

Also, Westbrook blows.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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Not really. He wasn't THAT highly regarded, but the Spurs liked his efficiency in college which relied heavily on his rebounding, which has translated incredibly well.

Also, Westbrook blows.
What are you talking about Leonard was a guy in most mock draft's back then as a lottery pick. It's not like he was some secret gem that nobody knew or heard about.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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I think everyone would say that looking back at it that Leonard should have gone higher...but analytics aren't the reason he's a spur and not playing for someone else, there are plenty of teams that could have drafted him for that reason.
The other teams passed on him because they WEREN'T using analytics. It really is that simple.

The Spurs are really, really good at taking a player and putting him in a role that maximizes his strengths. It's not just Popovich (though Pop is a huge part of it), it's the entire organization and how they do things.

The Celtics are moving to this model, and I'm looking forward to it. Brad Stevens was targeted specifically because he embraces advanced analytics and maximizing players based on proven stats.

Last edited by nepg : 03-09-2014 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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The other teams passed on him because they WEREN'T using analytics. It really is that simple.
that's just simply not true and such a ridiculous notion and this notion is why I've grown to dislike analystics so much. This is just such a bad mentality and so wrong.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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What are you talking about Leonard was a guy in most mock draft's back then as a lottery pick. It's not like he was some secret gem that nobody knew or heard about.
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that's just simply not true and such a ridiculous notion and this notion is why I've grown to dislike analystics so much. This is just such a bad mentality and so wrong.
And this
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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You're ignoring Davis, then. Davis was an absolute lock for a good player, and he was head and shoulders above everyone else.
Fine, throw Davis in there. That brings it to two guys in the last 11 years. And I think Parker is a lock to be a very good player. Wiggins, too. Embiid will be solid at worst.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Fine, throw Davis in there. That brings it to two guys in the last 11 years. And I think Parker is a lock to be a very good player. Wiggins, too. Embiid will be solid at worst.
Wiggins isn't close to a lock. Parker and Embiid maybe.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I dont think Parker is a lock. To me he seems like a guy that will put up like 19 and 6 on an underwhelming percentage while not playing much D. Obviously that's just my opinion, but I legitimately see him as a Rudy Cool type player.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Parker's a much better college player than Rudy though, and Rudy stayed two years. He's a better shooter, scorer, rebounder and defender even. His passing could use some work, but he'll get there.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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I'm not comparing him to Rudy as a college player, I just see NBA-Rudy as what he turns into when he gets to the league.
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