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Old 12-10-2007, 02:49 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Default Philip Rivers

Let me know if you guys agree with me -

I think Rivers's main problem right now is his footwork. I think when you watch Rivers, he is a good QB when he plants and steps up. He can deliver great throws, like the strike over the middle to Chambers (after the 4th and 5 play). But too many times his drops are inconsistent. This doesn't help the line either... McNeil was awful yesterday and Vanden Bosch dominated him, but on a few plays Rivers didn't help him out by stepping up away from the outside rush. Tackles are taught in pass protection to let the defensive player's momentum carry past the quarterback - Rivers needs to feel that pressure and have the courage to step up into the pocket. He also has a awful habit of running away and to the right when pressure up the middle comes. He needs to learn how to sidestep the pressure while keeping his eyes downfield. I don't think there is anything wrong with Rivers that can't be fixed, he just needs to stay calm under pressure and not let the pass rush determine how good of a QB he will be.
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Old 12-10-2007, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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He gets big props from me for getting hurt and looking done...then returning and scoring 3 straight tds on offense...that win was huge for you guys...Obviously he will have to get more consistent to win in the playoffs, but I think if he gets Gates involved early, and LT running it makes everything else easier for him
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Old 12-10-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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He gets big props from me for getting hurt and looking done...then returning and scoring 3 straight tds on offense...that win was huge for you guys...Obviously he will have to get more consistent to win in the playoffs, but I think if he gets Gates involved early, and LT running it makes everything else easier for him
Yeah, he showed plenty of guts by hanging in there on his bad knee. I'm still one of his big fans, I think he could be a great one, but he just needs to continue to be coached. Just like Favre this year, fine tuning your mechanics can only be a good thing and produce results on the field.
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Old 12-10-2007, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I'm a big Rivers fan, if not evident by the arguments I've had with Average OT LB, but I'll be the first to admit he's still got room to go. I'd agree a lot of it stems from the poor footwork, but he's never going to be a mobile QB. If he can work on stepping into his throws though, like you said, he can fix it.

What I think his biggest problems are, is where they should be. Because he sat his first two years he knows the playbook I feel like but he does struggle with some on the field stuff. He tends to force plays and I think where Norv is trying to set him up to succeed, he is setting him up to fail. Rivers can't throw 35-40 times a game like he is doing right now. It exposes his flaws because he still tries to force plays and stare down receivers. Hopefully he can learn from that this offseason and correct it, because I don't think its somethign he'll correct this week, or next week magically. If he does more what he did last year taking waht the defense gives him, he'll be successful.

He has a winning attitude (not the "he wins games" argument VY uses), despite what seems like whining at times. He is a leader, and does what he can to win. Unfortuantely what comes with that is his desire to try and force too much.


I figured I could throw this in here as a sidenote with the supposed LT/Rivers attitudes towards each other. I do think that where there is smoke there is fire, but I don't think its a big deal. The reason I think it happens is because both want the ball when the game is on the line. That's why LT gets upset when Rivers makes a bad play, beacuse he feels, probably justifiably so, that he should get the ball in that situation. Rivers is a competitor too though, and wants the ball. I don't think its a bad kind of thing, but it does have to be kept in check....you can't have your superstar RB showing up your QB.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Let me know if you guys agree with me -

I think Rivers's main problem right now is his footwork. I think when you watch Rivers, he is a good QB when he plants and steps up. He can deliver great throws, like the strike over the middle to Chambers (after the 4th and 5 play). But too many times his drops are inconsistent. This doesn't help the line either... McNeil was awful yesterday and Vanden Bosch dominated him, but on a few plays Rivers didn't help him out by stepping up away from the outside rush. Tackles are taught in pass protection to let the defensive player's momentum carry past the quarterback - Rivers needs to feel that pressure and have the courage to step up into the pocket. He also has a awful habit of running away and to the right when pressure up the middle comes. He needs to learn how to sidestep the pressure while keeping his eyes downfield. I don't think there is anything wrong with Rivers that can't be fixed, he just needs to stay calm under pressure and not let the pass rush determine how good of a QB he will be.
Actually, that throw was pretty bad and was way underthrown, which is why you saw Chambers go so low for it. The reason it was badly thrown was because someone got their hands on him as he threw it. Oh well, it's karma for LT accidentally going out of bounds on the previous play.

And yes, I agree with what you say about his footwork. However, most of the problems in the Titan's game wasn't his fault. With Haynesworth disrupting the middle, there was no way that PR could have stepped up in the pocket to avoid th outside rush. Notice the moment that Haynesworth was tired and on the sideline, PR stepped up in the pocket and delivered our comeback.

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Old 12-12-2007, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JK17 View Post
I'm a big Rivers fan, if not evident by the arguments I've had with Average OT LB, but I'll be the first to admit he's still got room to go. I'd agree a lot of it stems from the poor footwork, but he's never going to be a mobile QB. If he can work on stepping into his throws though, like you said, he can fix it.

What I think his biggest problems are, is where they should be. Because he sat his first two years he knows the playbook I feel like but he does struggle with some on the field stuff. He tends to force plays and I think where Norv is trying to set him up to succeed, he is setting him up to fail. Rivers can't throw 35-40 times a game like he is doing right now. It exposes his flaws because he still tries to force plays and stare down receivers. Hopefully he can learn from that this offseason and correct it, because I don't think its somethign he'll correct this week, or next week magically. If he does more what he did last year taking waht the defense gives him, he'll be successful.

He has a winning attitude (not the "he wins games" argument VY uses), despite what seems like whining at times. He is a leader, and does what he can to win. Unfortuantely what comes with that is his desire to try and force too much.


I figured I could throw this in here as a sidenote with the supposed LT/Rivers attitudes towards each other. I do think that where there is smoke there is fire, but I don't think its a big deal. The reason I think it happens is because both want the ball when the game is on the line. That's why LT gets upset when Rivers makes a bad play, beacuse he feels, probably justifiably so, that he should get the ball in that situation. Rivers is a competitor too though, and wants the ball. I don't think its a bad kind of thing, but it does have to be kept in check....you can't have your superstar RB showing up your QB.
You're right in the sense that I think the problem is that the two are too much alike in personality. Brees had that cooling effect (watch him talking to Reggie Bush on sidelines after the Saints were losing), while Rivers is too much like LT in his competitive nature.

However, I do not think that there is a rift between the two. LT is a brutally honest person and he would have said something about it in the press conference. I think it was just a mere coincidence. Heck, from all report the two were hugging and having a good time in the lockerroom and in the plane. You don't do that with someone if you hate them, regardless if you won the game or not.

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Old 12-12-2007, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Actually, that throw was pretty bad and was way underthrown, which is why you saw Chambers go so low for it. The reason it was badly thrown was because someone got their hands on him as he threw it. Oh well, it's karma for LT accidentally going out of bounds on the previous play.

And yes, I agree with what you say about his footwork. However, most of the problems in the Titan's game wasn't his fault. With Haynesworth disrupting the middle, there was no way that PR could have stepped up in the pocket to avoid th outside rush. Notice the moment that Haynesworth was tired and on the sideline, PR stepped up in the pocket and delivered our comeback.
That's not the throw I was talking about. I'm talking about the throw on first down that put the Chargers on the 25 yard line, where Rivers hit Chambers in between 3 defenders.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Let me know if you guys agree with me -

I think Rivers's main problem right now is his footwork. I think when you watch Rivers, he is a good QB when he plants and steps up. He can deliver great throws, like the strike over the middle to Chambers (after the 4th and 5 play). But too many times his drops are inconsistent. This doesn't help the line either... McNeil was awful yesterday and Vanden Bosch dominated him, but on a few plays Rivers didn't help him out by stepping up away from the outside rush. Tackles are taught in pass protection to let the defensive player's momentum carry past the quarterback - Rivers needs to feel that pressure and have the courage to step up into the pocket. He also has a awful habit of running away and to the right when pressure up the middle comes. He needs to learn how to sidestep the pressure while keeping his eyes downfield. I don't think there is anything wrong with Rivers that can't be fixed, he just needs to stay calm under pressure and not let the pass rush determine how good of a QB he will be.
I agree. I think its obvious rivers is having unexpected difficulties, considering how well he played last year. I also agree that the problems he has are very fixable, much like big ben. Whats unfortunate, is that they were drafted at the same time, and big ben has done pretty much everything before rivers.. super bowl, ups downs and back again... it seems like rivers is behind..

As for him fixing the problem, that remains to be seen. As simple the problems are, some quarterbacks never get over that kind of stuff. Hopefully he isnt one of those guys. Either way, i think we may see at least some form of progression. If not into a superstar, then at least into a top game manager, limiting turnovers. Ironically though, hes among the leauge leaders in turnovers. i guess we'll see...
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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I dont know if its just me but when hes throwing he doesnt look confident at all, im thinking hes losing faith in his line and i dont blame him, he seems like he just gets rid of the ball causing him to throw those picks, he needs to expect the hit and not play scared
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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I dont know if its just me but when hes throwing he doesnt look confident at all, im thinking hes losing faith in his line and i dont blame him, he seems like he just gets rid of the ball causing him to throw those picks, he needs to expect the hit and not play scared

What you said is pretty much a summary of what this guy said...

SportingNews
By Greg Cosell

f you're looking for reasons the Chargers have fallen short of expectations -- and why they likely won't put up much of a fight in the AFC playoffs -- start with the quarterback.


Heading into Week 14, I had watched all 28 of Philip Rivers' NFL starts. I was initially impressed with Rivers through the first half of last season, especially in a defining performance against the Steelers, a defense that always provides a litmus test for inexperienced quarterbacks. Pittsburgh's multiple looks and pressure packages never rattled Rivers. He was firm in the pocket, and he made stick throws into tight windows.
The Rivers of 2007 is a different player. He looks uncomfortable dropping into the pocket. Quarterbacks must feel the pass rush, never see it, and Rivers sees it. He reacts to any flash of opposing color in his immediate field of vision, and he often perceives pressure that isn't there.

As a result, his mechanics go out the window -- and with that goes the ability to deliver the ball with timing and rhythm. He has a tendency to become frenetic and hurried, and his naturally strong arm is rendered average.

Rivers' problems have clearly impacted Norv Turner's play-calling. Turner would love to pass more, but he has been forced to minimize the negative impact Rivers has on the game. It's no bad thing to give the ball to LaDainian Tomlinson, as San Diego did against the Chiefs two weeks ago. Tomlinson rushed for 177 yards and San Diego won handily. But a one-dimensional offense won't cut it in the AFC this season.


This approach also demands a shutdown defense, which the Chargers haven't had. They have not been stout against the run. And though they have blitzed significantly more in recent weeks and produced a few more sacks, they are not a dominant group. Shawne Merriman has not been an impact pass rusher. The most telling evidence: Opposing offenses are not game-planning to account for him.
In addition, I see a lot of voids in the secondary, with receivers running free through space. And this has been the case whether the Chargers blitz or stay back in coverage. Good pass offenses will exploit this defense. Erratic play from both the quarterback and defense -- that's not a good combination when facing the likes of New England, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Average OT LB View Post
What you said is pretty much a summary of what this guy said...

SportingNews
By Greg Cosell

f you're looking for reasons the Chargers have fallen short of expectations -- and why they likely won't put up much of a fight in the AFC playoffs -- start with the quarterback.


Heading into Week 14, I had watched all 28 of Philip Rivers' NFL starts. I was initially impressed with Rivers through the first half of last season, especially in a defining performance against the Steelers, a defense that always provides a litmus test for inexperienced quarterbacks. Pittsburgh's multiple looks and pressure packages never rattled Rivers. He was firm in the pocket, and he made stick throws into tight windows.
The Rivers of 2007 is a different player. He looks uncomfortable dropping into the pocket. Quarterbacks must feel the pass rush, never see it, and Rivers sees it. He reacts to any flash of opposing color in his immediate field of vision, and he often perceives pressure that isn't there.

As a result, his mechanics go out the window -- and with that goes the ability to deliver the ball with timing and rhythm. He has a tendency to become frenetic and hurried, and his naturally strong arm is rendered average.

Rivers' problems have clearly impacted Norv Turner's play-calling. Turner would love to pass more, but he has been forced to minimize the negative impact Rivers has on the game. It's no bad thing to give the ball to LaDainian Tomlinson, as San Diego did against the Chiefs two weeks ago. Tomlinson rushed for 177 yards and San Diego won handily. But a one-dimensional offense won't cut it in the AFC this season.


This approach also demands a shutdown defense, which the Chargers haven't had. They have not been stout against the run. And though they have blitzed significantly more in recent weeks and produced a few more sacks, they are not a dominant group. Shawne Merriman has not been an impact pass rusher. The most telling evidence: Opposing offenses are not game-planning to account for him.
In addition, I see a lot of voids in the secondary, with receivers running free through space. And this has been the case whether the Chargers blitz or stay back in coverage. Good pass offenses will exploit this defense. Erratic play from both the quarterback and defense -- that's not a good combination when facing the likes of New England, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.

I don't agree with a lot of what this guy says, aside from Rivers seeing the pass rush and panicing at times. Although sometimes it helps him avoid a sack and throw it away, generally its a bad thing.

But he lost me when he said Rivers is making Norv not pass as much as he wants to. Just last game we threw it 40 times. We've been throwing it way to much this year if anything, and this guy suggests we want to pass more? Really?

And then talking about the defense, when he says teams don't gameplan for Merriman, or he's not an impact in the defense anymore? All that tells me is he's only looking at sack numbers (which aren't bad), because the impact Merriman has had in the run stop game is phenomenal, in addition to the fact he is game planned for, and often double teamed when obviously blitzing. Cromartie has vastly improved the secondary, and there are obviously still holes (primarily at the safety positions), but to say any of those teams aside from New England will certainly pick us apart isn't true. Indianpolis probably could but didn't last time we played them (Granted the conditiions were god awful but we still had 6 interceptions), and Pittsburgh may be able to as welll, but it seems like an overstatement to me.

Still, its not so much the defense analysis of his I have a problem with, but the concept that the Chargers should be passing more than 35 times a game philosophy this guy has that bothers me.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with a lot of what this guy says, aside from Rivers seeing the pass rush and panicing at times. Although sometimes it helps him avoid a sack and throw it away, generally its a bad thing.

But he lost me when he said Rivers is making Norv not pass as much as he wants to. Just last game we threw it 40 times. We've been throwing it way to much this year if anything, and this guy suggests we want to pass more? Really?

And then talking about the defense, when he says teams don't gameplan for Merriman, or he's not an impact in the defense anymore? All that tells me is he's only looking at sack numbers (which aren't bad), because the impact Merriman has had in the run stop game is phenomenal, in addition to the fact he is game planned for, and often double teamed when obviously blitzing. Cromartie has vastly improved the secondary, and there are obviously still holes (primarily at the safety positions), but to say any of those teams aside from New England will certainly pick us apart isn't true. Indianpolis probably could but didn't last time we played them (Granted the conditiions were god awful but we still had 6 interceptions), and Pittsburgh may be able to as welll, but it seems like an overstatement to me.

Still, its not so much the defense analysis of his I have a problem with, but the concept that the Chargers should be passing more than 35 times a game philosophy this guy has that bothers me.

Yeah the guy made alot of sense with rivers, but he obviously lost it when he was talking about the passing thing. I somewhat understand what he was saying tho.. Because of Rivers, we cant throw in certain situations blah blah .. hes pretty much dead wrong when he says we're one dimensional because we run too much.

As for Merriman, i agree with the what the guy said. Last year was obvioulsy a fluke, hes not a 17 sack in 12 games kinda guy. He doesnt get constant pressure like some guys around the league. I really dont see the need to gameplan around merriman like in the past.. hes gotten better in other areas, but that realy isnt saying much.. hes gone from pretty bad at doing other stuff to respectable.
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Old 12-14-2007, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Average OT LB View Post
What you said is pretty much a summary of what this guy said...

SportingNews
By Greg Cosell

f you're looking for reasons the Chargers have fallen short of expectations -- and why they likely won't put up much of a fight in the AFC playoffs -- start with the quarterback.


Heading into Week 14, I had watched all 28 of Philip Rivers' NFL starts. I was initially impressed with Rivers through the first half of last season, especially in a defining performance against the Steelers, a defense that always provides a litmus test for inexperienced quarterbacks. Pittsburgh's multiple looks and pressure packages never rattled Rivers. He was firm in the pocket, and he made stick throws into tight windows.
The Rivers of 2007 is a different player. He looks uncomfortable dropping into the pocket. Quarterbacks must feel the pass rush, never see it, and Rivers sees it. He reacts to any flash of opposing color in his immediate field of vision, and he often perceives pressure that isn't there.

As a result, his mechanics go out the window -- and with that goes the ability to deliver the ball with timing and rhythm. He has a tendency to become frenetic and hurried, and his naturally strong arm is rendered average.

Rivers' problems have clearly impacted Norv Turner's play-calling. Turner would love to pass more, but he has been forced to minimize the negative impact Rivers has on the game. It's no bad thing to give the ball to LaDainian Tomlinson, as San Diego did against the Chiefs two weeks ago. Tomlinson rushed for 177 yards and San Diego won handily. But a one-dimensional offense won't cut it in the AFC this season.


This approach also demands a shutdown defense, which the Chargers haven't had. They have not been stout against the run. And though they have blitzed significantly more in recent weeks and produced a few more sacks, they are not a dominant group. Shawne Merriman has not been an impact pass rusher. The most telling evidence: Opposing offenses are not game-planning to account for him.
In addition, I see a lot of voids in the secondary, with receivers running free through space. And this has been the case whether the Chargers blitz or stay back in coverage. Good pass offenses will exploit this defense. Erratic play from both the quarterback and defense -- that's not a good combination when facing the likes of New England, Indianapolis and Pittsburgh.
so ur saying i just copied what he siad?
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:38 AM    (permalink
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Here's another interesting thing a fellow poster from the official forum has to say. Apparently, most of the QBs under Norv do much better in their second year with him ie. Aikman, Brad Johnson, etc. The main reason is that their workload had increased.

Rivers, for instance, apparently has about 5 times as many plays and schemes to know under Norv than he did under Cam. He's a smart kid (Marty himelf believed he was the smartest QB that he had ever seen), but it's going to take time for him to digest everything. I suspect that's another explanation for his struggles this year. He's thinking too much instead of simply playing. Hopefully, with this season winding down, he continues to show progress.
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Here's another interesting thing a fellow poster from the official forum has to say. Apparently, most of the QBs under Norv do much better in their second year with him ie. Aikman, Brad Johnson, etc. The main reason is that their workload had increased.

Rivers, for instance, apparently has about 5 times as many plays and schemes to know under Norv than he did under Cam. He's a smart kid (Marty himelf believed he was the smartest QB that he had ever seen), but it's going to take time for him to digest everything. I suspect that's another explanation for his struggles this year. He's thinking too much instead of simply playing. Hopefully, with this season winding down, he continues to show progress.
I think this post makes the most sense of those that have tried to digest rivers before... i'd add though that perhaps the lack of certainty in every route may be a contributing factor towards him staring down receivers
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Old 12-15-2007, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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so ur saying i just copied what he siad?
haha nooo thats not what i meant.. my bad man i was just using your post as a transition, it actually was a compliment i felt
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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haha nooo thats not what i meant.. my bad man i was just using your post as a transition, it actually was a compliment i felt
ah no hard feelings
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