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Old 12-31-2007, 03:12 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Default Steelers should switch to a Tampa2

Woodley ~ Hampton ~ Hoke ~ Darrell Robertson/Jeremy Thompson (Rookies)
Keisel ~ Smith ~ McBean ~ Darrell Robertson/Jeremy Thompson (Rookies)

Harrison ~ Farrior ~ Timmons
Foote ~ Gooden ~ Dizon (Rookie)

I like your LB setup.. Harrison would be a killer SLB, Timmons an awesome WLB, but we should draft a MLB. Like round 2, Tavares Gooden would be a perfect pick.

I said this draft:

1) Jeff Otah, OT, Pittsburgh
2) Tavares Gooden, MLB, Miami ~ Could play all 3 LB spots in a 4-3.
3) Darrell Robertson, DE, Georgia Tech
4) Jeremy Thompson, DE, Wake Forest
5) Jordan Dizon, WLB, Colorado
6) Andrew Bain, OG/C, Miami



Keisel would make a solid Strongside Tampa2 DE. Smith could play NT behind Hampton, Hampton can rush and stuff the run from the interior, Hoke can penetrate and would make a solid UT, McBean was a passrushing DE that moved to DT on obvious passing situations in college and iwth his added bulk he could be a very good interior pass rusher, we have to add some weakside DE's and Darrell Robertson and Jeremy Thompson are two of the best Day 2 guys that we could bring in. Who ever does better gets the starting spot.

As for LBs, Timmons is a prototypical Weakside LB, as is Dizon, With some experience Dizon could be a very solid backup Will. Farrior is getting up there but he's still our best option at ILB. Tavares Gooden would be a very solid MLB, he's got all the assets. He's good at run stopping, he's great in coverage, he can rush the passer, he also is a tremendous athlete sporting a 4.47 40'.

James Harrison would be a monster SLB. From my understanding of the SLB position they have the minimal coverage responsibilities, but is supposed to be a superb run stopper and will be used on blitzes. He would excel as a SLB. Foote also played SLB at Michigan and Moving him there would give us at worst a solid backup.

As for the DB's, I think we'd be better in this, But I don't know how our Safeties would fit in. Troy's not your traditional Coverage, but capable of in the box safety. And Ryan Clark/Anthony Smith, though I love them, are no Antoine Bethea's.. We need a physical guy thats veyr fast. We may need to convert a CB. Charles Godfrey? Another Iowa CB/FS?
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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woodley would need to put on a little bit of weight if he were to play DE. And not having Aaron Smith starting is a crime. He could be a 4-3 DT. Hampton isnt built to be a 4-3 DT. Our players fit our system and wouldnt fit in a 4-3. the only players that fit are the LB's.
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Old 12-31-2007, 04:39 PM    (permalink
Jakey
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i 'm actually warming to the idea...the hybrid 3-4 cover 2 has been failing miserably the last few weeks. The fundimental problem is we are not getting enough pressure on the QB, and they are picking us apart. In the cover-2 the front 4 is obviously rushing the passer...at least 1 or 2 linebackers drop in coverage and the safety's drop deep. What we have been doing is rushing the 3 man front of Keisel/Hampton/Kirshcke...blitzing two of our linebackers, still not getting the pressure on, but that also leaves u with players like Haggans or Foote covering, which frankly they stink in coverage. Its also been jeopadising our run d...with the safety's and linebackers dropping back...we have been sucking the place up against the run. I think we need to do one or the other. And to be honest, i think we could run a pretty solid tampa-2 team.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:37 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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woodley would need to put on a little bit of weight if he were to play DE. And not having Aaron Smith starting is a crime. He could be a 4-3 DT. Hampton isnt built to be a 4-3 DT. Our players fit our system and wouldnt fit in a 4-3. the only players that fit are the LB's.
It shouldn't be hard for Woodley, it's the same basic concept he played senior year. SDE in a cover2 based defense. He came out at 6'2 266lbs running a 4.74, thats not "Dwight Freeney" Speed, but Dwight came out at 6'1 266lbs.

I think LaMarr will be the strongside version of Dwight Freeney, except, he's actually good against the run. And Frankly, I thought he was better with the extra 11-16lbs. He knows how to carry that weight. Now if they ask him to bulk back up a bit, he might actually be faster and stronger because he lost fat and should be adding muscle.

As for Hampton, I disagree about him fitting the 4-3. I know it was only a few opportunities, but do you remember the "Fat Nickel" they ran against Cleveland/Buffalo? Hampton was killing in it. Buffalo runs a cover 2 but they have the worst trouble stopping the run. This is where our "Tomlin2" as I call it is different. You not only draft athletes that are good at coverage, but you get complete DE's and your DT's can plug the run game. Imagine Hampton 1 on 1 with a guard? Thats a pressure every single time.

When I think of the Tomlin2, I want something different. I don't want the Indy, Tampa, Buffalo defenses that are "Way" Undersized and offer really no run stopping capability. I want a Nose Tackle that would suffice in a 3-4, that can play the LDT position. Basically the Tomlin2 IMO, would be Minnesota's DT's, Indy's DE's, Indy's Secondary and Tampa Bay's LB Core. I honestly think we have that setup. Minnesota has Pat Williams who could swing to 3-4 NT in a second, and Kevin Williams who would be a massive 3-4 DE, they're one of the best run stopping duo in the league. I don't understand why Hoke/Hampton can't pull it off.

As for Aaron Smith, I love the guy, but he's 32. He's kind of a Tweener, he's not really a DE for the Tomlin2, but he's not really a DT. What I figure is, he'll be the Passrushing interior LDT when Hampton goes out on 3rd down.

As for our players fitting the system, I really disagree. Woodley is a Classic Tampa2 DE, except he's complete. A run stopper, a pass rusher, and with some 3-4 LOLB experience, we can even drop him in coverage and show 3-4 looks.

Hoke, everytime he's been in for Hampton is a penetrator.. Even at 0-tech, he usually is in the backfield the end of the play. Hampton and Hoke together give us a solid pocket collapsing presence from the interior, the capability to stop the run, and with Hoke, you have a penetrating tackle.

Is it a finished product? No, like I said, we'd have to get 2 4-3 WDE's, a MLB of the future, a WLB Depth and possibly a future UT.

Frankly... if we can do this, I'd take 1 WDE, grab a mediocre WDE in FA, and grab a guy like George Selvie or Ricky Sapp for RDE.

And the beauty of the Tomlin2? It's a 3-4 Hybrid.

LaMarr Woodley and Rickey Sapp wouldn't really suffice for 3-4 DE's, but the fact one could drop in coverage and rush three men is interesting.

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Originally Posted by Jakey View Post
i 'm actually warming to the idea...the hybrid 3-4 cover 2 has been failing miserably the last few weeks. The fundimental problem is we are not getting enough pressure on the QB, and they are picking us apart. In the cover-2 the front 4 is obviously rushing the passer...at least 1 or 2 linebackers drop in coverage and the safety's drop deep. What we have been doing is rushing the 3 man front of Keisel/Hampton/Kirshcke...blitzing two of our linebackers, still not getting the pressure on, but that also leaves u with players like Haggans or Foote covering, which frankly they stink in coverage. Its also been jeopadising our run d...with the safety's and linebackers dropping back...we have been sucking the place up against the run. I think we need to do one or the other. And to be honest, i think we could run a pretty solid tampa-2 team.
The Tampa 2 really hinges on a 3 man passing attack.

Now, you can't have an Amobi Okoye, Dwight Freeney, Pat Williams and all the best Tampa 2 players..

But,

With a solid base, which I believe we have, and the fact that Tampa2 players aren't NEARLY as difficult to project. When you project a 3-4 OLB, you're taking a defensive end normally with very little knowledge of pass coverage. In a Tampa2, your LBs/DB's provide coverage. It's a system that hides the deficiencies of your secondary.

LaMarr Woodley can play DE every down, and for any team thats a positive. Add in the fact that Keisel, who looks everyday more and more like a 4-3 SDE is depth, you really can't complain.

Hampton is a run plugger thats used to taking on 2 guys at a time, putting him in a position where he can go one on one with a G or C every now and again, yeah, that spells trouble for the opposing offense. Aaron Smith is a guy that only has 2-3 more years and keeping him fresh is the way to go. Him coming off the bench to spell Casey will keep opposing OL's off guard.

Hoke, in his limited attempts (and season where he played 15 games for Hampton) can get into the backfield. Is he Amobi Okoye or Kevin Williams, or Tommie Harris? No, but he probably is on par with Chris Hovan or Jovan Haye. As for Ryan McBean, I'd actually like to see him lose about 10 lbs down to 290lbs again. He didn't seem to carry it well and was a pretty good DE, and passrushing UT at OK State.

We're lacking a weakside DE which I think we could pick up in Free Agency. With a down year, Suggs might be a guy to look for. He's got swagger and he's fast/phyical. If he commands too much money, draft a mid round guy like a Darrell Robertson, He's pretty much a prototypical 4-3 WDE. Add another rookie for depth. Your first season you'll have to cut them some slack because they're going to make mistakes. If you add Jeremy Thompson I think we should start him first because he's got the bulk to play the run, and he's a pretty complete DE. Bring in Robertson for passing downs.

Weakside LB, we've heard all offseason about how Lawrence Timmons reminded everyone of a Young Derrick Brooks, why not put him in a scheme to succeed? Derrick Brooks is a HOF OLB. If Timmons has that capability, plus from the college games I watched he seems like he's a very quick WLB, that can play the run, cover almost any WR, and he's actually a solid blitzer. Maybe not in a 3-4, but if he gets a 1-on-1 matchup with the RB, he'll win that 8/10 times. I know there were rumors of him being out of shape at his pro-day, from what I heard however, is thats when he tweaked his groin the first time. A 4.66 is pretty impressive with a tweaked groin. I imagine he truly runs a 4.3 or 4.4. I was at Training Camp and he was racing Parker, Reid, and Holmes. Lets just say Holmes won, Timmons was second, Reid 3rd and Parker last. Thats impressive speed. We're going to need depth at Will so we take a young developmental guy like Wesley Woodard of Kentucky, Jordan Dizon of Colorado. I really like Dizon.

MLB is built for Farrior. He can blitz, he's very solid in zone coverage and he's still one of the best against the run. Think of this as well. Farrior has to defeat blocks in the 3-4, Imagine him at his age, being allowed to almost roam free. It allowed Ray Lewis to continue his career. Though, we do need a young dominant MLB for the future, and I think thats where Tavares Gooden comes in. He technically could play all 3 LB positions in a 4-3, his 4.4 speed would be perfect on the weakside, his run stopping capabilities though make him an asset at MLB. Tavares is a solid blitzer and he's also very very athletic. Again, building the 4-3 for a run stopping and solid pass coverage Tampa 2. Need a complete MLB. Not only that, but the athleticism of our LB core will be ridiculous.

SLB will be secured by Harrison. Show me one team that has a SLB like James Harrison, a mean feisty pissed off SOB. I figure with him on strongside, he'll have the least coverage responsibilities, is a force against the run.. and imagine him blitzing behind Woodley on the edge. That again spells trouble for the offense. Larry Foote was a SLB at college and it's probably his more natural position.

CB: Ike Taylor still needs to work on his hands, but with his athleticism and in a Tampa2 scheme he can read/react to the quarterback, which he's been doing all season, but this time, it won't be as bad if he gets beat because he'll have 2 safeties deep to help. This scheme was designed for guys like DeShea Townsend and William ***. Lack of speed, but great intuitiveness and knowledge of the defense/zones. That plays right into their strengths and hides their Weaknesses. Bryant McFadden has stud potential in this defense, but part of me thinks he'd be a monster FS.

S: I honestly think Troy might be solid in this scheme. Basically in a Bob Sanders role. None of that ******** where they have him blitz at the line only to run into a Guard, no he stays as a 4th LB/S Tweener type that can explode up to the run and play deep, with his hands and speed he should be perfect. I still think they should draft a corner, and if Ryan Clark comes back, put him as FS, if he doesn't come back, put Bryant McFadden at FS, cut Tyrone Carter, move Anthony Smith to Backup SS and you might need another S.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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Maybe a late round player like Micheal Grant (Arkansas) , Matthew Harper (oregon) or Cornelius 'pig' Brown (mizzou) to play safety. I think any of these has the potential to be a steal.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:05 AM    (permalink
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Maybe a late round player like Micheal Grant (Arkansas) , Matthew Harper (oregon) or Cornelius 'pig' Brown (mizzou) to play safety. I think any of these has the potential to be a steal.
I think Bryant McFadden has Pro-Bowl potential as a Tampa2 FS.

But it wouldn't be bad to bring in a late rounder/UDFA
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:13 AM    (permalink
Jakey
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The only concern i have with all these ideas is...it's allot of change. I mean it took the coaching staff all offseason to work out who the starting line was gonna be, i dont think they are good with change. I'd love to see a change in the defensive philosophy...but i'm not even sure they will dare to move Willie Colon to guard...let alone change the D'. They are abit too conservitive IMHO
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:30 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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The only concern i have with all these ideas is...it's allot of change. I mean it took the coaching staff all offseason to work out who the starting line was gonna be, i dont think they are good with change. I'd love to see a change in the defensive philosophy...but i'm not even sure they will dare to move Willie Colon to guard...let alone change the D'. They are abit too conservitive IMHO
I think you're about to hear the winds of change.

I'm not saying they'll definitely do it.

But it seems awfully coincidental they drafted Timmons and talked about Brooks. Woodley they compared to a more powerful Dwight Freeney, and William *** as a perfect "zone" CB.

I'd be interested in seeing Dick LeBeaus spin on the Tampa2. Lets not forget he ran a tampa2ish scheme in Cincy.

Not to mention, who knows when Dick will retire.

Also, Lest we forget, the Tampa2 was designed off the Steel Curtain.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:34 AM    (permalink
Jakey
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what kind of time range do you think it will take? It is a mojor change of philosophy
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:47 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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what kind of time range do you think it will take? It is a mojor change of philosophy
Well... the more I think about it.. Here's the skinny.

probably about 2-3 years max.

We have some key Components:

A complete Strongside DE
A big run stuffing and pocket Collapsing NT
A Quick twitch and extremely athletic Will
A ferocious Run stopping and pass rushing SLB
A very complete MLB.

As for our secondary, they run a cover 2/Cover 3 a majority of the time anyways. So with my Tampa2, I'm moving Bryant McFadden to FS. And just to be safe I'll assume Ryan Clark isn't coming back.

I'm thinking actually. Sign an average WDE to a 2-3 year deal. Like a Mike Rucker of Carolina. and a Will LB with some experience. Brandon Chillar.

Mike Rucker, WDE, Carolina
Brandon Chillar, WLB, St. Louis

Each to 2 year deals.

2008:

1) Trade for a future 1st, a 2nd and 3rd.
2a) Chris Williams, LT, Vanderbilt
2b) Tavares Gooden,
3a) John Greco, RT/RG, Toledo
3b) Heath Benedict, OG, Newberry
4) Nick Hayden, DT, Wisconsin
5) Jeremy Thompson, DE, Wake Forest
6) Justin Tryon, CB, Arizona State

In 2009
1a) Ricky Sapp, DE, Clemson
1b) Devin Thomas, WR, Michigan State
2) Arian Foster, RB, Tennessee
3) George Hypolite, UT, Colorado
4a) Clint Sintim, SLB, Virginia
4c) London Fryar, CB, Western Michigan
5a) Kevin Barnes, CB/FS, Maryland
5c) Xavier Fulton, OT, Illinois
6) Paul Fanaika, OG, Arizona State
7) Jordan Norwood, WR, Penn State
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Old 01-01-2008, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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If we do indeed go to a 4-3 cover 2, I would really, really like to go after Vilma. I would cream my pants if he came here. Even if we continue to run a 3-4, I would still enjoy the idea of Vilma.
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Old 01-01-2008, 12:15 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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If we do indeed go to a 4-3 cover 2, I would really, really like to go after Vilma. I would cream my pants if he came here. Even if we continue to run a 3-4, I would still enjoy the idea of Vilma.
I don't know. Vilma has been good in the 4-3, but at the same time, he had that big knee injury and I think we might be better off. I doubt NYJ would get rid of him, and he would cost more than a rookie that might have more potential.
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Old 01-01-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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bryant mcfadden at FS is a terrible idea in a tampa 2, he is your prototypical corner in that system and would be best fit there
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mikehop05 View Post
bryant mcfadden at FS is a terrible idea in a tampa 2, he is your prototypical corner in that system and would be best fit there
Honestly, I think he's a guy that could do either in that system.

But I think Anthony Smith still will come through and he would be an awesome SS or FS In a Tampa2.
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Old 01-02-2008, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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I don't ever want to see anthony smith in a black and gold jersey again. Tghe reason why we have been struggling lately is because of injuries. Up until the injuries our D was the best. Makes no sense to go to the stupid tampa 2. It's nice you think you have all the answers, but the bottom line is results and we get results with what we have year after year!
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by NFLBOY View Post
I don't ever want to see anthony smith in a black and gold jersey again. Tghe reason why we have been struggling lately is because of injuries. Up until the injuries our D was the best. Makes no sense to go to the stupid tampa 2. It's nice you think you have all the answers, but the bottom line is results and we get results with what we have year after year!
i have a feeling you might not be so against anthony smith this time next year...
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