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Old 01-21-2008, 02:21 AM    (permalink
diabsoule
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Default Giants Better Off Without Tiki & Shockey?

After watching the Giants a few times this year, mostly in the playoffs, it seems that they have more team chemistry and more confidence without those two players on the field (I know Tiki retired). The dissension between Tiki Barber and Tom Coughlin is well documented and there have been stories about Jeremy Shockey not thinking too highly of Eli Manning.

After the season they have had I think it is safe to say Eli Manning is turning into the quarterback his draft stock indicated. He has done it without one of his most reliable receiving threats in Shockey.

What do you fellas think? Are the Giants a better team without Tiki Barber and Jeremy Shockey?
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:34 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking the same with Shockey.
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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I think the difference has been having Steve Smith healthy in the slot. Slot reciever has become more important in today's NFL than tight end. When you've got a great route runner in the slot like both Super Bowl teams have, the QB becomes way more efficient. Teams would rather not play 5 DB's constantly, but they're forced to when you have an effective slot reciever. Fullback and every down tight end, those are becoming dinosaur positions in today's NFL. It's all about shotgun, single back, three wide recievers and situational tight ends.
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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Well, as a Giants fan, I'm not sure. Tiki brought a lot to the table, but Jacobs runs hard, and Bradshaw is kind of what Tiki was. A guy who could pass block, catch, and make those infamous cutback runs we all know and love.

Now, I think in some cases, we are better without Tiki. The last thing you need is someone on your team calling out the coach after a tough loss. So from that element, I would say yes, we're better off. Not to mention Tiki seemed more interested in his media debut than the team at times.

As for Shockey..well. I'll admit I've never liked Shockey a ton. He brings energy to the team, but sometimes that is negative energy when things aren't going right. Plus he likes to do his own thing on the field, and I think that hurt Eli.

Boss isn't half the blocker Shockey is though - so that kind of sucks. Regardless, I think in some ways we're better off, while in others it's nice to have the extra skill set that they bring to the table.

I'll tell you, Tiki Barber must be crapping himself he didn't return though, heh.
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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tiki maybe

shockey, no.

SDchicken is right, smith has made a big difference. shockey would onl y make this team better
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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tiki maybe

shockey, no.

SDchicken is right, smith has made a big difference. shockey would onl y make this team better
Maybe because the option routes are gone he might.

However, if they were still in I would say no. Shockey likes to do his own thing, and doesn't read option routes very effectively.
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Old 01-21-2008, 02:52 AM    (permalink
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Maybe because the option routes are gone he might.

However, if they were still in I would say no. Shockey likes to do his own thing, and doesn't read option routes very effectively.

we really havent seen shockey without the option routes in a while though. before our current O got put in place shockey was much more productive. less option routes and less vertical routes and shockey will be more productive. the only thing he is used as in our current O is a checkdown guy.

the one time we actually used his pass catching abilities was his one big game, though that was against roy williams.


also, he is a great blocker. we miss him in that regard

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Old 01-21-2008, 02:58 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not even sold that Eli has come close to "justifying his draft stock", as you said.

Eli has had a pretty good 2nd half to the season, but that's not enough to totally overlook what has been an otherwise pretty lousy career.


I think the defense is the story of the Giants in the playoffs, especially Sunday.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not even sold that Eli has come close to "justifying his draft stock", as you said.

Eli has had a pretty good 2nd half to the season, but that's not enough to totally overlook what has been an otherwise pretty lousy career.


I think the defense is the story of the Giants in the playoffs, especially Sunday.
he has been up and down this year more so that in the past.

normally its the good 1st half and a bad 2nd half. then again this was only his 3rd full year as a starter, not much sample size to operate on

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Old 01-21-2008, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not even sold that Eli has come close to "justifying his draft stock", as you said.

Eli has had a pretty good 2nd half to the season, but that's not enough to totally overlook what has been an otherwise pretty lousy career.


I think the defense is the story of the Giants in the playoffs, especially Sunday.
I think he's a game manager. A pretty good one, but he's not being asked to go out and really attack the secondary anymore. Big difference from years past in my eyes and even games earlier in the season.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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I'm still not even sold that Eli has come close to "justifying his draft stock", as you said.

Eli has had a pretty good 2nd half to the season, but that's not enough to totally overlook what has been an otherwise pretty lousy career.


I think the defense is the story of the Giants in the playoffs, especially Sunday.
Sometimes it takes players a while to develop. Especially at quarterback. Eli has played lights out in three straight road games in the postseason. Four touchdowns and no turnovers. That's pretty darn impressive. The defense has been good in the playoffs, but so has the Giants offense. It's been quite balanced. And his career hasn't been that bad. He just helped get his ball club to the Super Bowl, the hard way. I'd say he's justified his stock. He got there before his brother did, that's for sure, and if he can beat the Patriots in two weeks, then his legacy is sealed.
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Old 01-21-2008, 03:40 AM    (permalink
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I think the word you're looking for is "despite" - regarding Shockey anyway. The Giants have chemistry and confidence despite his absence, I don't think it's because of his absence and I can't see how they're a better team without him. As I always said with Pacman who apparently "split the locker room in two in 05" - if one player can do that to a team, then the team probably isn't going anywhere anyway. If Shockey's presence could make the Giants worse then I doubt they'd get this far - their veterans are stronger than that.

Tiki, well he was a good player but like a lot of good teams, if you build a passing game that works with a Superbowl worthy OL, losing a running back is rarely a big deal. Jacobs and Bradshaw seem to have a good thing going, and combined are probably more effective.

As for Eli, before these past couple of weeks he has been disappointing but lately, I think he is more than just a "game manager" - just because you're not putting up 350y and 3 td's every week doesn't mean you're not taking over a game necessarily. One thing that still annoys me though is his demeanor after an incomplete/int/sack etc - looks like a frustrated 12 year old :P
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:16 AM    (permalink
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Shockey's run blocking and physicality is sorely missed. Boss is a nice player, but he's not even close when it comes to Shockey with blocking. His passion and energy are missed as well.

Tiki was a cancer in the locker room, and he and Petigout aren't missed one bit here in New York
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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I think he's a game manager. A pretty good one, but he's not being asked to go out and really attack the secondary anymore. Big difference from years past in my eyes and even games earlier in the season.
I dunno about that. Eli has attacked the secondary quite a bit against the Patriots and throughout the playoffs. How many times did he throw the ball downfield to Plax, Smith, and Toomer yesterday?

We are 100% better without Tiki. That goes without saying. Shockey is bit different. I can see where some would think that though. I do in a sense as well. We certainly don't miss Shockey running wrong routes and throwing his hands in the air everytime he doesn't catch a ball for whatever reason. Also Plax seems to have cut down on that as well without Shockey here. However Shockey brings a lot passion to the team, and even though Boss is blocking better than I thought he would, we still miss Shockey there a lot. Boss has filled in nicely but we aren't targeting him nearly as much as we did with Shockey. But like others said, Smith's getting on the field healthy again is a big reason why. He is going to be a very very good WR.
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Old 01-21-2008, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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Sometimes it takes players a while to develop. Especially at quarterback. Eli has played lights out in three straight road games in the postseason. Four touchdowns and no turnovers. That's pretty darn impressive. The defense has been good in the playoffs, but so has the Giants offense. It's been quite balanced. And his career hasn't been that bad. He just helped get his ball club to the Super Bowl, the hard way. I'd say he's justified his stock. He got there before his brother did, that's for sure, and if he can beat the Patriots in two weeks, then his legacy is sealed.
Just liek you said, 4 touchdowns in 3 games. Game-manager, plain and simple. I will admit he has played well over the past 3 games, but we will see next season. In the immortal words of Bill Parcells, I haven't pulled out the anointing oil yet.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:10 AM    (permalink
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Just liek you said, 4 touchdowns in 3 games. Game-manager, plain and simple. I will admit he has played well over the past 3 games, but we will see next season. In the immortal words of Bill Parcells, I haven't pulled out the anointing oil yet.
If you are just going to call someone a game manager because of the amount of TDs one has thrown in a 3 game span then you might be even less knowledgable than your rep would indicate.

I'm with you on the annointing oil though. Manning was never as bad as many wanted to think he was, but as a #1 pick I wanted more at this point. I wanna see this carry over into next season.
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Old 01-21-2008, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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Sometimes it takes players a while to develop. Especially at quarterback. Eli has played lights out in three straight road games in the postseason. Four touchdowns and no turnovers. That's pretty darn impressive. The defense has been good in the playoffs, but so has the Giants offense. It's been quite balanced. And his career hasn't been that bad. He just helped get his ball club to the Super Bowl, the hard way. I'd say he's justified his stock. He got there before his brother did, that's for sure, and if he can beat the Patriots in two weeks, then his legacy is sealed.
his legacy? Youre being sarcsatic, right?
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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I think the difference has been having Steve Smith healthy in the slot. Slot reciever has become more important in today's NFL than tight end. When you've got a great route runner in the slot like both Super Bowl teams have, the QB becomes way more efficient. Teams would rather not play 5 DB's constantly, but they're forced to when you have an effective slot reciever. Fullback and every down tight end, those are becoming dinosaur positions in today's NFL. It's all about shotgun, single back, three wide recievers and situational tight ends.
That and Tiki Barber. Im still debating internally about Shockey. But theres no question we're better without Tiki Barber.

Ive said all offseason that our run game is the product of our oline and scheme. Our run game didn't miss a beat when Tiki was gone. What i was worried about, and still am critical of on the field is what we lost in Tiki in the PASS game, not the run. We lost an extra dimension on the field in the pass game, but it looks like Bradshaw will replace him very nicely in that regards.

Our oline and scheme make our run game. We had a RBC with different faces all season step in and produce. Thats why RBs are so overrated. Its all about your lines. Tomlinson/ADs only show up once every 4 years. Everyone else is nothing without a good oline in front of them.

As for Tiki being a cancer, its obvious how the team's mentality and refusal to quit and support each other changed when he left. He was a cancer to our team, as well as Jim Finn, and Luke Petitgout. All of them are gone. And good riddance.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:25 AM    (permalink
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I think he's a game manager. A pretty good one, but he's not being asked to go out and really attack the secondary anymore. Big difference from years past in my eyes and even games earlier in the season.
Game managers don't throw it 40 times in the NFC championship game....
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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Just liek you said, 4 touchdowns in 3 games. Game-manager, plain and simple. I will admit he has played well over the past 3 games, but we will see next season. In the immortal words of Bill Parcells, I haven't pulled out the anointing oil yet.
keep crying about it. it makes the season that much more satisfying. btw, so....how many TDs did Romo throw in the playoffs?

but then again, he only played one game so we can't knock him for that....
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Just liek you said, 4 touchdowns in 3 games. Game-manager, plain and simple. I will admit he has played well over the past 3 games, but we will see next season. In the immortal words of Bill Parcells, I haven't pulled out the anointing oil yet.
please gimme a break. eli makes downfield throws and takes what the defense gives him. Chad pennington managed games by throwing no pass for more than 7-8 yards. Eli threw the ball 40x for 250 yards in -4 degree weather, i would hardly call that game managing. He's making smart decisions but he is not afraid to throw the ball 30 yards ie several passes to plaxico yesterday. you dont know football
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:27 AM    (permalink
Billingsley26
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As of right not, I am 100% SOLD THAT TIKI BARBER WAS THE PROBLEM WITH THE NEW YORK GIANTS!

When I look at the make up of this team, it really resembles the 2004 Red Sox. Just a bunch of guys who are having fun, who are just playing football.

Tiki seemed to have nothing good to say about anyone in this organization. Yes, he was a great talent, but Im much more sold on working as a team, than indy talent.

Even, watching Barber on TV makes him look too cocky, or too sure of himself. And plus, we all saw that the minute he got into the booth, he went right after Eli. Tell you anything? Not to mention he has seemed to call out Coghlin and Strahan laready. Two guys on that team who you realy dont want to call out.
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Old 01-21-2008, 10:57 AM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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I almost want the Giants to win a ring so Tiki can feel like a loser for retiring, and maybe he realizes he was holding the team back
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:48 PM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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the only thing about the Giants making the Suberbowl that makes me happy is that it was a big you know what to Tiki. Maybe now Tiki will shut his mouth and stop acting like his crap don't stink. He badmouthed them and basically pumped himself up, and they shoved it back in his face. I'd like the media or a player to say something about that. Tiki deserves anything he gets, he's a bum.
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:53 PM    (permalink
Jonny
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You do not get better by losing two great players. Period.

Tiki was one of the greatest Giants ever. There is no room for any Giant fan to criticize him.
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