Who means more to NE? - Page 2

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 01-26-2008, 07:17 PM

Without either of them, they aren't 16-0, I'll say that. But Brady is more important, definitely. Belichek is an outstanding coach, but a coach is nothing without players.

Dave · 01-26-2008, 07:21 PM

That excuse works both ways, a player is nothing without his coach. He wouldn't play well if he wasn't told how to play in that system.

Twiddler · 01-26-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

That excuse works both ways, a player is nothing without his coach. He wouldn't play well if he wasn't told how to play in that system.

And who's to say that Brady would be the QB he is today if it wasn't for his years under Belicheck?

Dave · 01-26-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twiddler

And who's to say that Brady would be the QB he is today if it wasn't for his years under Belicheck?

That's almost literally my exact point. I'm not quite sure how to respond to a mirror'd response. Thank you?

ks_perfection · 01-26-2008, 07:35 PM

Brady and it isn't even close. He's a franchise QB, one of the best of all time. Belly is also one of the best, but the drop off between him and any other coach they could sign is alot lower than the drop off between Brady and whichever QB they'd try to find to replace him.

Take him away from the team and they wouldn't have any SuperBowls. They'd likely win this year with all the talent and atleast a medicore QB. You think they'd win those 3 SBs with Bledsoe? If they got rid of him instead its very hard to get a good QB and drafting will likely be a bust and a good one would take a few years to become good. Even than he won't be near Brady's level.

energizerbunny · 01-26-2008, 07:39 PM

BB, for reference watch the Rams superbowl game and how he stopped the greatest show on turf

Dave · 01-26-2008, 07:42 PM

A lot more changes if they get rid of Brady, they probably draft a QB to win those games or actually groom Matt Cassell to be the man. Matt's got all the looks of Matt Schaub sitting behind Mike Vick. I'm willing to bet they would of made it just fine and at most would of lost only one of those superbowls. It's rediculous for anyone to honestly think that Tom Brady makes Bill a better coach, because Bill has made Tom the better QB. Bill is the most important factor to New England's success.

duckseason · 01-26-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlerChris

Without either of them, they aren't 16-0, I'll say that. But Brady is more important, definitely. Belichek is an outstanding coach, but a coach is nothing without players.

And players are mere individuals without a coach building a cohesive unit out of them. Where would Brady be without the outstanding protection from his offensive line? Who are the Patriots without Belichick? It all starts with him. Players go to New England and become robots that all sound the same. It's a trickle-down from their leader. A lot of players have come and gone, but they're still the same dynastic Patriots. Bring in Denny Green, and it's a completely different team. Replace Brady, and you have a different QB. Those precision-robots will still provide excellent protection and execute the game-plan the same way they are right now. Brady is a great QB and no doubt the most important individual player on the team, but again, this is Belichick's show.

BigDawg819 · 01-26-2008, 07:45 PM

As much as I want to say Brady, its not even close to what Bill does for this team. I mean the motivation, the coaching, the knowledge, and so much more. Not to mention that with the amount of time that offensive line gives a QB, you could practically plug in any QB and be a successful offense.

Bucs147 · 01-26-2008, 07:47 PM

I'd go with that order:

1. Scott Pioli
2. Bill Belichick
3. Randy Moss
4. Richard Seymour
5. Tom Brady

5 great players/football minds BTW. That's the reason why there are 18-0.

duckseason · 01-26-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by energizerbunny

BB, for reference watch the Rams superbowl game and how he stopped the greatest show on turf

The fact that they got away with game-changing penalty after penalty didn't hurt either, but I hear what you're saying. Belichick is one of the best game-planners of all time.

Dave · 01-26-2008, 07:54 PM

It's not like the Patriots were the only team this year to receive favorable outcomes on would-be penalty's.

duckseason · 01-26-2008, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

It's not like the Patriots were the only team this year to receive favorable outcomes on would-be penalty's.

Oh, I was just talking about that Super Bowl against the Rams. They definitely got away with quite a bit of blatant stuff.

downthealley · 01-26-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucs147

I'd go with that order:

1. Scott Pioli
2. Bill Belichick
3. Randy Moss
4. Richard Seymour
5. Tom Brady

5 great players/football minds BTW. That's the reason why there are 18-0.

LMAO, a guy who played half of the season and only partially the rest is more important than Brady, that makes sense.

Dave · 01-26-2008, 08:04 PM

I think Randy and Richard have more athleticism and talent than Brady do, but Brady's production is staggering in comparison to the other two.

downthealley · 01-26-2008, 08:05 PM

The defense functions just fine without Seymour though, the most important player to the patriots D, and any 3-4 would be the NT, Wilfork.

Ewing · 01-26-2008, 08:08 PM

Belichick. He's the one who drafted Tom Brady and has one of the best schemes in football history.

duckseason · 01-26-2008, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ewing

Belichick. He's the one who drafts and signs every player on the team. Including Tom Brady.

I'm pretty sure he works closely with Pioli, but Belichick isn't the GM.

Ewing · 01-26-2008, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckseason

I'm pretty sure he works closely with Pioli, but Belichick isn't the GM.

Yeah, I realized that after I posted. He's an excellent talent scout, regardless.

Average OT LB · 01-26-2008, 08:19 PM

The answer for the short term is tom brady. In terms of the franchise its obviously Bill.. quarterbacks can be replaced.. perhaps not 16-0 super bowl good, but 11-5 playoffs good.. without bill that team goes to hell.. but again if it were just 1 game the talent on the field should be the largest determining factor.

Dave · 01-26-2008, 08:21 PM

Talent on the field category still goes to Bill. I repeat: I have never seen Tom Brady get up off his butt and walk over to the defense with a dry erase board and fix their scheme so that they give the ball back to him with enough time to win. That's Bill's job.

Shiver · 01-26-2008, 08:53 PM

Belicheck's record without Tom Brady:

1991 - 6-10
1992 - 7-9
1993 - 7-9
1994 - 12-6
1995 - 5-11
2000 - 5-11
2001 - 1-2

With Tom Brady:

2001 - 13-3
2002 - 9-7
2003 - 17-2
2004 - 17-2
2005 - 11-7
2006 - 14-5
2007 - 18-0

Coaching is ridiculously overrated. It's about the talent on the field. Anyone can look bad with bad talent and vice versa.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 01-26-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckseason

And players are mere individuals without a coach building a cohesive unit out of them. Where would Brady be without the outstanding protection from his offensive line? Who are the Patriots without Belichick? It all starts with him. Players go to New England and become robots that all sound the same. It's a trickle-down from their leader. A lot of players have come and gone, but they're still the same dynastic Patriots. Bring in Denny Green, and it's a completely different team. Replace Brady, and you have a different QB. Those precision-robots will still provide excellent protection and execute the game-plan the same way they are right now. Brady is a great QB and no doubt the most important individual player on the team, but again, this is Belichick's show.

Well obviously it's close. But, here, I found something.

Brady, in 112 career games, has been on the winning team 86 times. 77%.

Belichick is 127-81, for a winning percentage of .611.

Since Brady took over in 2001, Belichick is 86-26. Without Tom Brady, Belichick is 41-75. 35%.

So where exactly is Bill without Brady?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf) · 01-26-2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiver

Belicheck's record without Tom Brady:

1991 - 6-10
1992 - 7-9
1993 - 7-9
1994 - 12-6
1995 - 5-11
2000 - 5-11
2001 - 1-2

With Tom Brady:

2001 - 13-3
2002 - 9-7
2003 - 17-2
2004 - 17-2
2005 - 11-7
2006 - 14-5
2007 - 18-0

Coaching is ridiculously overrated. It's about the talent on the field. Anyone can look bad with bad talent and vice versa.

Hahaha. Just beat me to it.

BigDawg819 · 01-26-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiver

Belicheck's record without Tom Brady:

1991 - 6-10
1992 - 7-9
1993 - 7-9
1994 - 12-6
1995 - 5-11
2000 - 5-11
2001 - 1-2

With Tom Brady:

2001 - 13-3
2002 - 9-7
2003 - 17-2
2004 - 17-2
2005 - 11-7
2006 - 14-5
2007 - 18-0

Coaching is ridiculously overrated. It's about the talent on the field. Anyone can look bad with bad talent and vice versa.

And lets look deeper into that record before Brady, oh wait thats right it was mainly with a vastly inferior Cleveland team. Yet another example of misleading stats being used to further one's opinion. Brady isn't the sole reason for the difference, its also the play of others around him and yes the coaching.