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View Poll Results: Who means more to the Patriots?
Bill Belichick 37 50.68%
Tom Brady 36 49.32%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-26-2008, 09:18 PM    (permalink
duckseason
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Belicheck's record without Tom Brady:

1991 - 6-10
1992 - 7-9
1993 - 7-9
1994 - 12-6
1995 - 5-11
2000 - 5-11
2001 - 1-2

With Tom Brady:

2001 - 13-3
2002 - 9-7
2003 - 17-2
2004 - 17-2
2005 - 11-7
2006 - 14-5
2007 - 18-0

Coaching is ridiculously overrated. It's about the talent on the field. Anyone can look bad with bad talent and vice versa.
And any player can look bad in the wrong system. I think coaching is underrated. Of course it's the players who go out there and execute, but it's the coaches who put them in a position to succeed. Individual players are overrated. Nobody does a damn thing by themselves in this league. Tom Brady isn't the only player who's been with Belichick for the good years, but was absent for the bad. Misleading stat there. You don't attribute those records to just the QB. This is a team game. Once Belichick got all his pieces in place, the Pats started winning games and became a dynasty. Imo, that offensive line is the most important piece. Without that outstanding protection, the offense crumbles. Brady is a great QB, but he's nothing without all those other pieces that are constantly being tweaked by Belichick and his coaching staff. Raw talent requires honing and direction. Once Brady has a hand in everything that Belichick does, then maybe there'll be an argument here. As it is, he's the quarterback. The guy who does what his coach tells him to do.

Now, I'll agree that 53 great players trump one HC, but Tom Brady himself is not more important to the Patriots than Belichick is. Tom Brady is a tool in Belichick's hand. The wrench is not more important than the mechanic.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CutlerChris View Post
Well obviously it's close. But, here, I found something.

Brady, in 112 career games, has been on the winning team 86 times. 77%.

Belichick is 127-81, for a winning percentage of .611.

Since Brady took over in 2001, Belichick is 86-26. Without Tom Brady, Belichick is 41-75. 35%.

So where exactly is Bill without Brady?
Hmm. Funny that, for those same 112 games that Brady participated in, Belichick is also 86 and 26. Except that, he deserves more credit for those wins than any individual player.

Remember, this is a team game. Belichick didn't exactly have an abundance of talent in Cleveland. And let's not forget about the value of experience here. I'd assume that he's a better coach today than he was while coaching the lowly Browns.

Stats are only meaningful when viewed from the proper perspective. I could single out quite a few players who have a much better record than their respective HC's. Meaningless. Richard Seymor joined the Pats in '01. He's obviously far more important to the Patriots than Belichick is. I mean, just look at his record compared to Belichick's, right? Records are a team thing. Belichick is the leader of the team. No argument here.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
I'm pretty sure he works closely with Pioli, but Belichick isn't the GM.
And neither is Pioli...
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dave View Post
I think Matt Cassel if given an opportunity to start right off the bat for the Patriots a year or so ago could of led this team to a Super Bowl. I might even have been able to do it. Everything around Tom Brady is of the finest quality when it comes to each individual player at their position and even at position groupings.
Yet Drew Bledsoe couldn't...

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Woah woah woah, Tom Brady does not automatically fix the Dolphins. That team is wrecked and everyone knows it. Not one QB in this league could fix that craphole in one year. You have to have someone to throw to for you to be an effective QB as it stands anyway. The Fins are severely lacking in that area at the moment.
With Tom Brady, the Dolphins are 8-8 this year. Mark it down.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
So Brady's won those super bowls and Belichick hasn't? This team wouldn't exist without Belichick. Like I said, it's his chess board. He's the Scorsese to Brady's DeNiro. Without Scorsese, Jimmy Conway doesn't exist.

I think you're severely undervaluing the impact that a HC has on his team. Out of sight, out of mind, right? Brady is out there throwing TD's while Belichick is just picking his ass on the sideline?
If the Patriots had say Norv Turner and Tom Brady and no Belicheck, they'd still be amazing. If they had Belicheck and a bad QB then they'd suck. Belicheck is just as important as anyone in that organization's success, but if they hadn't gotten lucky with Tom Brady then they'd have probably 0-1 super bowls over the past decade.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
I agree. If Bill Belicheck left today and was replaced by Josh McDaniels the team would be fine. If Tom Brady left today and was replaced by some other QB they would be done.
Yes and no. There would be a drop off, but it would not be because of Tom Brady. It has been proven that you can win in this league without a defense. Losing Belichick might take the Patriots from having a defense in the top 5-7 to a defense in the top 7-12. The talent is still there.

Putting someone else in at QB guarantees nothing. Part of the reason Brady is so good is his ability to read a defense and make fast decisions. That can't be taught, you either have it or you don't. If you could, all those work-out warrior bust quarterbacks would have been Pro Bowlers.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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And neither is Pioli...
Right. He's the VP of player personnel. AKA the GM, right? I was always under the impression that he basically functioned in the same capacity as most other teams' GM's.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Dave View Post
I think Matt Cassel if given an opportunity to start right off the bat for the Patriots a year or so ago could of led this team to a Super Bowl. I might even have been able to do it. Everything around Tom Brady is of the finest quality when it comes to each individual player at their position and even at position groupings.

Woah woah woah, Tom Brady does not automatically fix the Dolphins. That team is wrecked and everyone knows it. Not one QB in this league could fix that craphole in one year. You have to have someone to throw to for you to be an effective QB as it stands anyway. The Fins are severely lacking in that area at the moment.
Miami's offensive line and running game weren't so bad. Their passing game sucked. Tom Brady has put up sick numbers throwing to nobodies basically his whole career until this season. Miami would've won at least 8 or 9 games with the same team and Tom Brady this year no doubt.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
So Brady's won those super bowls and Belichick hasn't? This team wouldn't exist without Belichick. Like I said, it's his chess board. He's the Scorsese to Brady's DeNiro. Without Scorsese, Jimmy Conway doesn't exist.

I think you're severely undervaluing the impact that a HC has on his team. Out of sight, out of mind, right? Brady is out there throwing TD's while Belichick is just picking his ass on the sideline?
Belichick doesn't call the plays. Half the time, he's not even watching the offense.

I have a better analogy for you: Tom Brady is HHH from the WWE. He's banging the bosses daughter, so he had creative control of his character, but the boss did a really great job in helping him get where he is today.

Everyone should chew on that one for a little while. Basically, both exist because of each other, and both would survive without each other. It's a 1A/1B situation. I certainly couldn't pick...
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by duckseason View Post
Right. He's the VP of player personnel. AKA the GM, right? I was always under the impression that he basically functioned in the same capacity as most other teams' GM's.
It's a team. Belichick isn't on the phone trying to work out trades, but I can guarantee he has as much input into personnel changes as Pioli, and that's because that is the way they both want it.

But it has been pointed out every time a GM opening comes available that Pioli does not have final say in New England, and quite frankly, I don't even know if I could tell you who does...
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
If the Patriots had say Norv Turner and Tom Brady and no Belicheck, they'd still be amazing. If they had Belicheck and a bad QB then they'd suck. Belicheck is just as important as anyone in that organization's success, but if they hadn't gotten lucky with Tom Brady then they'd have probably 0-1 super bowls over the past decade.
Those are mere assumptions. In reality, you have no idea what may have happened if the Pats had selected Rattay over Brady or if Bledsoe had never been hurt.

I agree that Brady has proven to be a great QB, but he's getting way too much credit for the Pats success. This is a team game. Tom Brady has never won a game or even completed a pass without the help of his teammates and coaches.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
It's a team. Belichick isn't on the phone trying to work out trades, but I can guarantee he has as much input into personnel changes as Pioli, and that's because that is the way they both want it.

But it has been pointed out every time a GM opening comes available that Pioli does not have final say in New England, and quite frankly, I don't even know if I could tell you who does...
Yeah, that's kinda what I thought. I mentioned earlier that they undoubtedly work closely together (along with the rest of the scouts and such) in making personnel decisions.
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Belichick doesn't call the plays. Half the time, he's not even watching the offense.

I have a better analogy for you: Tom Brady is HHH from the WWE. He's banging the bosses daughter, so he had creative control of his character, but the boss did a really great job in helping him get where he is today.

Everyone should chew on that one for a little while. Basically, both exist because of each other, and both would survive without each other. It's a 1A/1B situation. I certainly couldn't pick...
Not into WWE. No idea what you're talking about there.

I'm not trying to say that Belichick calls the plays or does every single thing that makes the Pats successful. But I am saying that more so than any other individual person, he is responsible for the success that the Patriots currently enjoy. Yes, that is the opinion of an outsider, but it seems so damn obvious. Again, Tom Brady is 'merely' a queen on Belichick's chess board.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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See, the only problem I have with that is that I think Brady would have been successful elsewhere. Maybe not the Brady we know today, but he has the "it" that you can't teach and someone would have been able to tap into it and help realize it.

But if the 49ers had passed on Ken Dorsey and the Pats took him instead of Brady like they wanted to, do you think Ken Dorsey would be preparing to lead the Patriots to their 4th trip to the Super Bowl in the last 7 years? I certainly don't.

It's a fair question, and many of the points made work, but I just don't think there is an answer to this one. I think Tom Brady supplies the tires for the car, and Bill Belichick gives it the gas. The Patriots are stuck in the driveway without either...
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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See, the only problem I have with that is that I think Brady would have been successful elsewhere. Maybe not the Brady we know today, but he has the "it" that you can't teach and someone would have been able to tap into it and help realize it.

But if the 49ers had passed on Ken Dorsey and the Pats took him instead of Brady like they wanted to, do you think Ken Dorsey would be preparing to lead the Patriots to their 4th trip to the Super Bowl in the last 7 years? I certainly don't.

It's a fair question, and many of the points made work, but I just don't think there is an answer to this one. I think Tom Brady supplies the tires for the car, and Bill Belichick gives it the gas. The Patriots are stuck in the driveway without either...
Yeah it's all subject to opinion. No doubt. I don't mean to imply that Brady is not a huge asset to the Pats. He is a great player. I just think that Belichick has a far greater impact on the entire team. It's not Brady who's telling Belichick what to do. Hell, the simple fact that Brady has nothing at all to do with the defense or special teams should let people know that Belichick is more important. Brady is the star player, but let's not act as though he became that by himself.

As far as players go, yes, Brady is the most important Patriot, imo. And no, he would not be successful while playing with crappy protection and with a weak supporting cast. No QB would, or ever has been. He may be good, but in order to be great, all QB's need a lot of help.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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And lets look deeper into that record before Brady, oh wait thats right it was mainly with a vastly inferior Cleveland team. Yet another example of misleading stats being used to further one's opinion. Brady isn't the sole reason for the difference, its also the play of others around him and yes the coaching.
Exactly, when Belicheck didn't have talent he has had he looked mediocre at best as a head coach. There is my point right there.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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See, the only problem I have with that is that I think Brady would have been successful elsewhere. Maybe not the Brady we know today, but he has the "it" that you can't teach and someone would have been able to tap into it and help realize it.

But if the 49ers had passed on Ken Dorsey and the Pats took him instead of Brady like they wanted to, do you think Ken Dorsey would be preparing to lead the Patriots to their 4th trip to the Super Bowl in the last 7 years? I certainly don't.

It's a fair question, and many of the points made work, but I just don't think there is an answer to this one. I think Tom Brady supplies the tires for the car, and Bill Belichick gives it the gas. The Patriots are stuck in the driveway without either...
Since this is speculation I'll shoot an opinion. Why not? Dorsey was a National Champ in college being surrounded by superior talent so why wouldn't the same be true if he wasn't with the Pats. The Pats success over the last 7 years is not solely on the shoulders of one Tom Brady. Its the result of the entire team in general.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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Exactly, when Belicheck didn't have talent he has had he looked mediocre at best as a head coach. There is my point right there.
It goes both ways though. How did the pats look prior to his arrival? Of course a great coach needs solid talent to work with. Does he get no credit for the talent that exists in NE today? And again, he is far more experienced as a HC now than he was in 1991.
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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Since this is speculation I'll shoot an opinion. Why not? Dorsey was a National Champ in college being surrounded by superior talent so why wouldn't the same be true if he wasn't with the Pats. The Pats success over the last 7 years is not solely on the shoulders of one Tom Brady. Its the result of the entire team in general.
Why not is a really easy question to answer: it's the same reason Michael Bishop didn't take over for Drew Bledsoe. It's the same reason Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel and Gino Toretta aren't Canton bound. College success does not equal pro success. It's the same reason the Patriots gave Tom Brady the big contract instead of letting Damon Huard take over. He went to Kansas City and had a moderate level of success, I am sure the Pats could have saved the salary cap dough and kept him instead.

Ken Dorsey has had every opportunity to latch on to every good team in the NFL, and hasn't. That tells me that something is missing...
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Why not is a really easy question to answer: it's the same reason Michael Bishop didn't take over for Drew Bledsoe. It's the same reason Eric Crouch, Danny Wuerffel and Gino Toretta aren't Canton bound. College success does not equal pro success. It's the same reason the Patriots gave Tom Brady the big contract instead of letting Damon Huard take over. He went to Kansas City and had a moderate level of success, I am sure the Pats could have saved the salary cap dough and kept him instead.

Ken Dorsey has had every opportunity to latch on to every good team in the NFL, and hasn't. That tells me that something is missing...
Tom Brady got a fair shot at winning with a good team whereas Dorsey did not the same advantage. Regardless, Brady is good/great player but he's not the sole reason behind the Pats success. Bill makes that team what it is, without him they would not have had the success they had.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 01-26-2008, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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got to go with brady every guy wants to be like him and and every girl wants him
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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I don't think they'd be undefeated, or going into their 4th SB in 7 years without either of them. But, as you said, they are very talented. I think that on offense, the QB is what puts it together. There are no great offenses that don't have great QBs. Certainly, they would never have a bad offense with that line, but it wouldn't be great either. So for the offense, I think a lot of credit has to go to Tom. On defense, yes, Bill helps a lot there. But they have possibly the NFL's best DL, some great LBs and a deep secondary. They are so talented right now, I think a lot of coaches out there could have lead them to at the very least, a second round playoff game. I don't see them getting there without Brady, personally.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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I voted Belichek, I think that the way he plans his offense and defense, that he could win w/ a QB like Matt Cassell.
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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I don't think they'd be undefeated, or going into their 4th SB in 7 years without either of them. But, as you said, they are very talented. I think that on offense, the QB is what puts it together. There are no great offenses that don't have great QBs. Certainly, they would never have a bad offense with that line, but it wouldn't be great either. So for the offense, I think a lot of credit has to go to Tom. On defense, yes, Bill helps a lot there. But they have possibly the NFL's best DL, some great LBs and a deep secondary. They are so talented right now, I think a lot of coaches out there could have lead them to at the very least, a second round playoff game. I don't see them getting there without Brady, personally.
This team wouldn't be here for other coaches to take to a 2nd round playoff game if it weren't for Belichick. This is his painting. Another artist can't come in and claim it as their own. That's the bottom line. Belichick has had a far greater impact on this team than Brady has. And that's not to take a damn thing away from Brady. As I've said, he's obviously a great QB.

It's just funny that you point to how talented the DL and LB's are, and how deep the secondary is, as though that's a strike against Belichick. As if they just appeared in New England as finished products and went out there and performed on their own without any direction whatsoever. As though they didn't join Belichick's team and adhere to his standards.

Belichick has been winning with a lot of different guys on defense. Hell, perhaps the biggest star, Seymour, was out for a large part of this season, and they still did well. Sure the coach is nothing without his players, but the same goes for individual players. They need their teammates and they need their coaches. Belichick doesn't deserve all the credit, but he certainly deserves more credit than any individual player or any of the other coaches. Brady's role is huge, but Belichick is the director. I just don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.
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Old 01-27-2008, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Belichick has been winning with a lot of different guys on defense. Hell, perhaps the biggest star, Seymour, was out for a large part of this season, and they still did well.
Well, the pats miss playoffs in 2002 when Seymour was injured. I know that things have changed and that Tom Brady was a bad QB in 2002, but they would probably made the playoffs with Seymour in the line-up.
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