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Old 02-07-2008, 12:04 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by PalmerToCJ View Post
Parker is not overrated at all. Over 1300 yards the past 2 years and it's not like anyone makes him out to be in the same group with LT.
Thats my point.

I think you have your 2-3 Elitely talented RB's:

LT, Westbrook and now AD.

Then your better than the rest group:

Portis, Parker, Gore, Addai, Taylor/MJD, etc.



I think he's top 10, maybe #5 overall... but no one on here acts like he's the #1 or top 3 in the NFL.

I just don't get Troy either.

The only argument I ever here is:

"Scheme masks his deficiencies and plays only to his strengths"

To which I ask most posters if they understand football because thats the damn idea. Troy likely wouldn't be a great SS in just any scheme.. But in ours he's one of the best. He does exactly what we need out of an SS/Rover type.

Adrian Wilson is one of the top 3. I can't see why everyone is saying Bob Sanders now.. because he won DPOY? Just 6 months ago everyone was on his nuts for being the fire behind Indy's defense and the best SS. I don't get it.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
Thats my point.

I think you have your 2-3 Elitely talented RB's:

LT, Westbrook and now AD.

Then your better than the rest group:

Portis, Parker, Gore, Addai, Taylor/MJD, etc.



I think he's top 10, maybe #5 overall... but no one on here acts like he's the #1 or top 3 in the NFL.

I just don't get Troy either.

The only argument I ever here is:

"Scheme masks his deficiencies and plays only to his strengths"

To which I ask most posters if they understand football because thats the damn idea. Troy likely wouldn't be a great SS in just any scheme.. But in ours he's one of the best. He does exactly what we need out of an SS/Rover type.

Adrian Wilson is one of the top 3. I can't see why everyone is saying Bob Sanders now.. because he won DPOY? Just 6 months ago everyone was on his nuts for being the fire behind Indy's defense and the best SS. I don't get it.
I probably misunderstood that but did you say Adrian Wilson is overrated? I pretty sure you can't claim any Cardinal as overrated besides maybe Rolle
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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I thought he played really well for the Boys as an OG. He was destroying people every time I saw him.
ya but no OG deserves that type of money
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
Carson Palmer - One season doesn't make you elite.
Palmer has had 2 seasons with production near the top of the league, both of which were better than any season Tom Brady (who most consider a top 2 NFL QB) had ever put up prior to 2007. Speaking of 2007, does Carson Palmer's 2007 remind anyone else of Peyton Manning's 2001? As in a horrible defense forcing him into situations where he has to force things, which leads to more bad decisions, a lower TD total, and a higher INT total?

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Vince Young - Pretty soon he won't be rated very high.
Did anyone even rank him in the top half of NFL QBs? If they did prior to this season, there's no way they could justify that now.

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Bob Sanders - Great in the box safety, but D.P.o.t.Y? No way.
What makes you say that? Sanders is excellent against the run, and makes a lot of plays in coverage. If you're going to refer to the playoff game as an example of his poor performance, then please show me a secondary that can consistently keep receivers covered in a zone coverage scheme for 6+ seconds.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fenikz View Post
ya but no OG deserves that type of money
Hutch seems to be working out pretty nicely for the Vikings.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fenikz View Post
I probably misunderstood that but did you say Adrian Wilson is overrated? I pretty sure you can't claim any Cardinal as overrated besides maybe Rolle
No, I was saying that Adrian Wilson is one of the top 3 SS's in the league. Troy and Bob Sanders are the other 2.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
Thats my point.

I think you have your 2-3 Elitely talented RB's:

LT, Westbrook and now AD.
I'd add S-Jax, but I am a big fan of the guy. His biggest fault is ball security, he needs to improve that a bit.

And while I've given Willie Parker grief as being a bit overrated imo, still something of a boom-or-bust runner, I think it's important to note his durability. He's handled a number of carries the last two years - if anything he was on pace for too many this season, before his injury (related? broken bone was it?). He has done a very good job in that regard, especially when he's not the biggest guy on the field.

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Palmer has had 2 seasons with production near the top of the league, both of which were better than any season Tom Brady (who most consider a top 2 NFL QB) had ever put up prior to 2007. Speaking of 2007, does Carson Palmer's 2007 remind anyone else of Peyton Manning's 2001? As in a horrible defense forcing him into situations where he has to force things, which leads to more bad decisions, a lower TD total, and a higher INT total?
Interesting mention, Dam. I think you can peg a lot of Palmer's struggles the last two seasons on the injuries the offensive line has suffered, whereas the great 2005 unit started every game I believe and the offense thereby took off.

And it might not get better, they've developed Stacy Andrews but now he's a free agent this offseason I believe (maybe they get him re-signed him though). Jones and Anderson can't stay healthy and are only getting older. This is why I think they really key on Ryan Clady come the Draft, because at the end of it they'll want to protect and support their one gold investment in Palmer.

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What makes you say that? Sanders is excellent against the run, and makes a lot of plays in coverage. If you're going to refer to the playoff game as an example of his poor performance, then please show me a secondary that can consistently keep receivers covered in a zone coverage scheme for 6+ seconds.
I think it's hard to fault Sanders for doing what the Colts ask/tell him to do, which is mainly play in the box/against the run. It's not like they let him roam around or blitz, to acquire those type of stats. The most creative the defense has been is assigning him as the spy on Vince Young this past season, and he did a phenomenal job. He still makes big plays on the field regardless of the above, and is the heart of this defense.

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Hutch seems to be working out pretty nicely for the Vikings.
Even for an All-Pro guard, I think that may be too much money myself. But what's done is done, the market is what it is now.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Palmer has had 2 seasons with production near the top of the league, both of which were better than any season Tom Brady (who most consider a top 2 NFL QB) had ever put up prior to 2007. Speaking of 2007, does Carson Palmer's 2007 remind anyone else of Peyton Manning's 2001? As in a horrible defense forcing him into situations where he has to force things, which leads to more bad decisions, a lower TD total, and a higher INT total?
Firstly, Tom Brady in '04 and '05 had stats nearly identical to Carson Palmer's '06 stats, and without the stud receivers that Palmer has. Secondly, Palmer's breakout '05 season had many people quickly catapult him into the upper echelon of Quarterbacks, but since then he has been good, but not great. That is the definition of overrated. He's closer to Matt Hasselbeck than Peyton Manning, in my opinion.

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Did anyone even rank him in the top half of NFL QBs? If they did prior to this season, there's no way they could justify that now.
Plenty of people were on his bandwagon this past off-season, but another poor season and everyone will write him off as a poor man's Michael Vick.

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What makes you say that? Sanders is excellent against the run, and makes a lot of plays in coverage. If you're going to refer to the playoff game as an example of his poor performance, then please show me a secondary that can consistently keep receivers covered in a zone coverage scheme for 6+ seconds.
I didn't even think of the playoff game where the "DPotY" was completely invisible, thank you for reminding me. As I said he is a good SS, but he does not deserve the acclaim he has received.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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Firstly, Tom Brady in '04 and '05 had stats nearly identical to Carson Palmer's '06 stats, and without the stud receivers that Palmer has. Secondly, Palmer's breakout '05 season had many people quickly catapult him into the upper echelon of Quarterbacks, but since then he has been good, but not great. That is the definition of overrated. He's closer to Matt Hasselbeck than Peyton Manning, in my opinion.
Yeah, because T.J. Houshmandzadeh, whom I've seen you claim is the Bengals' best WR several times on these boards, sure did a lot without Carson Palmer...oh, wait, looks like he had worse career totals before Palmer than what he put up in his first season playing under Palmer. As for Brady's 04 and 05 being ALMOST as good as Palmer's 06, that was exactly my point. Palmer produced better in 2005 and 2006 than Brady has in any year of his career prior to this year.

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I didn't even think of the playoff game where the "DPotY" was completely invisible, thank you for reminding me.
WOW, "completely invisible", really? Is that why Tomlinson averaged 4 YPC in his short time in the game, and the Chargers averaged 3.3 YPC for the game? Because Bob was "completely invisible"? I'm sure the DL getting absolutely no pressure combined with Ron Meeks's refusal to start bringing blitzes had absolutely nothing to do with the Chargers' passing game putting up 312 yards and 3 TDs, right? That was all Bob's inability to make a zone coverage work for 6+ seconds, right? I know more should be expected of an elite player, but to say Bob was "completely invisible" in that game is beyond exaggeration. It's just plain false.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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I didn't even think of the playoff game where the "DPotY" was completely invisible, thank you for reminding me. As I said he is a good SS, but he does not deserve the acclaim he has received.
Again, is it his fault the Colts' defensive gameplan had him primarily playing the run? (Which btw limited the Chargers team to 99 rushing yards and 3.3 ypc.) Or is it Sanders' fault he didn't do the nickel corner's job?

His biggest mistake of the game was the taunting penalty on Kaeding, he wasn't responsible for any of the four Chargers' touchdowns. Granted, he didn't come up with a big game-changing play, so if you want to fault him for that, then go for it.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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Firstly, Tom Brady in '04 and '05 had stats nearly identical to Carson Palmer's '06 stats, and without the stud receivers that Palmer has. Secondly, Palmer's breakout '05 season had many people quickly catapult him into the upper echelon of Quarterbacks, but since then he has been good, but not great. That is the definition of overrated. He's closer to Matt Hasselbeck than Peyton Manning, in my opinion.
First of all Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are above and beyond all QBs, the same way LT is easily the best RB in the league.

Secondly, Carson Palmer hasn't had a defense anywhere near the colts or for that matter Patriots defense the last few years.

He also hasn't had locker room stability, which does have a major impact. No team can find proper cohesion and therefore perform properly on the field without having a proper chemistry.

Finally, you point out receivers but really Deion Branch, David Patten and Troy Brown along with Fauria, and Graham is a pretty decent stable, especially when you consider that a year or so later they added James Thrash in the slot and brought in a few other guys. While Carson has a better 3 wide set than brady had, when you factor in the receiving ability of the tight ends, running backs and WRs and the depth at those positions the Pats of yesterday (when you're referring to) had and today's bengals were not all that different and thats without the locker room issue and defensive problems.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:37 AM    (permalink
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Finally, you point out receivers but really Deion Branch, David Patten and Troy Brown along with Fauria, and Graham is a pretty decent stable
And that's leaving out Ben Watson.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:51 AM    (permalink
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This is gonna be a shock to a lot of people but I think Keith Bulluck is kind of overrated. Dont get me wrong, he's very good, but about the time he started to actually get recognition he started to slip from the elite a little bit.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:54 AM    (permalink
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:56 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, because T.J. Houshmandzadeh, whom I've seen you claim is the Bengals' best WR several times on these boards, sure did a lot without Carson Palmer...oh, wait, looks like he had worse career totals before Palmer than what he put up in his first season playing under Palmer.
What? A WR didn't break out until his third full season? Who could fathom such a circumstance! Does that mean Marvin Harrison isn't very good, because last time I checked his numbers weren't that great without Peyton Manning either.

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As for Brady's 04 and 05 being ALMOST as good as Palmer's 06, that was exactly my point. Palmer produced better in 2005 and 2006 than Brady has in any year of his career prior to this year.
If you really want to exaggerate things, then yes he was "almost" as good. But I tend to think that the difference between a 92 passer rating and a 93 passer rating is negligible. Especially when done with Givens and Branch compared to Chad Johnson and TJ Houshmandzadeh.


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WOW, "completely invisible", really? Is that why Tomlinson averaged 4 YPC in his short time in the game, and the Chargers averaged 3.3 YPC for the game? Because Bob was "completely invisible"? I'm sure the DL getting absolutely no pressure combined with Ron Meeks's refusal to start bringing blitzes had absolutely nothing to do with the Chargers' passing game putting up 312 yards and 3 TDs, right? That was all Bob's inability to make a zone coverage work for 6+ seconds, right? I know more should be expected of an elite player, but to say Bob was "completely invisible" in that game is beyond exaggeration. It's just plain false.
Bob Sanders made no impact plays. That isn't how the D.P.O.T.Y should perform in the playoffs. Wasn't he supposed to be some sort of magical defensive player that makes the defense great in the post-season? Where was the Sanders who "singlehandedly" made the '06 Colts' defense play well?
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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Typical Shiver, arbitrarily pushing and pulling facts so they suit your case. You'll never change, bud. ;)

If you're going to compare Palmer and Brady, try to do it fairly - the first five years of each player's career:

Carson Palmer
2003/Age 24: 0/0
2004/Age 25: 13/13 - 263/432 - 60.9% - 2,897 yds - 18 TDs - 18 INTs - 222.8 y/g - 77.3 - 25 sacks - 2 fumbles
2005/Age 26: 16/16 - 345/509 - 67.8% - 3836 yds - 32 TDs - 12 INTs - 239.8 y/g - 101.1 rating - 19 sacks - 5 fumbles
2006/Age 27: 16/16 - 324/520 - 62.3% - 4035 yds - 28 TDs - 13 INTs - 252.2 y/g - 93.9 rating - 36 sacks - 15 fumbles
2007/Age 28: 16/16 - 373/575 - 64.9% - 4131 yds - 26 TDs - 20 INTs - 258.2 y/g - 86.7 rating - 17 sacks - 5 fumbles

Tom Brady
2000/Age 23: 1/0 - 1/3 - 33.3% - 6 yds - 42.4 rating
2001/Age 24: 15/14 - 264/413 - 63.9% - 2843 yds - 18 TDs - 12 INTs - 189.5 y/g - 86.5 rating - 41 sacks - 12 fumbles
2002/Age 25: 16/16 - 373/601 - 62.1% - 3764 yds - 28 TDs - 14 INTs - 235.3 y/g - 85.7 rating - 31 sacks - 11 fumbles
2003/Age 26: 16/16 - 317/527 - 60.2% - 3620 yds - 23 TDs - 12 INTs - 226.3 y/g - 85.9 rating - 32 sacks - 13 fumbles
2004/Age 27: 16/16 - 288/474 - 60.8% - 3692 yds - 28 TDs - 14 INTs - 230.8 y/g - 92.6 rating - 26 sacks - 7 fumbles

Not that it needs to be said, but Brady had the much better defense throughout the timeframe, much better coaching, and Clock Killin' Corey Dillon in 04 providing a championship-caliber running game (of course this is easily and completely forgotten by Pats fans and the dumbass media, as any and all credit must go to Brady). Certainly Palmer didn't have that in 07, with Rudi Johnson hampered all season with a hamstring injury. Palmer does have two very good receivers since starting, and Chris Henry for a number of games, but nothing else either receiver or tight end-wise. The Bengals' OL in 05 is the best for either quarterback in any noted year.
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Old 02-07-2008, 02:14 AM    (permalink
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Those stats only show that I am right, or closer to being right. Carson Palmer's '05 and '06 seasons are hardly that much better than Tom Brady, and we've seen what happens when Brady gets elite receivers like the ones that Palmer had. Tom Brady had a better team around him, which explains why his team did better, but where have I said that Palmer is the reason the Bengals haven't won anything?

If we've seen what Brady can do with Welker, Stallworth, and Moss, what is Palmer's upside? We've already seen what he can do with a top notch offense around him.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:03 AM    (permalink
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Jon Kitna. I keep hearing how he's a top 3 QB in the NFL... and it just isn't true. Top 5... maybe. But, not top 3. He's overrated.
If Jesus wants him to win, we all should too.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TacticaLion View Post
Jon Kitna. I keep hearing how he's a top 3 QB in the NFL... and it just isn't true. Top 5... maybe. But, not top 3. He's overrated.
If Jesus wants him to win, we all should too.
Hey ninja, I don't know where you hear kitna is a top 3 guy, but I usually don't even see him in the top 10-15
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:27 AM    (permalink
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The fact that so many cowboys made the pro bowl including ROY WILLIAMS for god sake, leads me to believe, even moreso, that a large number of them are over-rated. I'd also nominate Vince Young,

IMO Keith Brooking and Alge Crumpler are overrated on my team. If this was last year I'd say Deangello Hall but in 2007 he exceeded my expectations. So all those people who loved to tell everyone how overrated he was last year simply should not do it this year because anyone who watch more then 3 games will tell you otherwise.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:48 AM    (permalink
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Hey ninja, I don't know where you hear kitna is a top 3 guy, but I usually don't even see him in the top 10-15
WHAT!? Really!? It's all over "JonKitnaandJesusPlayingFootball.com". I can't believe you didn't know that.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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jeremy shockey.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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I don't get why everyone thinks Troy P. and Willie Parker are overrated.
Parker is way too inconsistent. -1 yard, -2 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 25 yards.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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Parker is way too inconsistent. -1 yard, -2 yards, 3 yards, 1 yard, 25 yards.
I take it you're not a Barry Sanders fan then.
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Rodney Harrison. He really is overrated now.
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