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Old 02-07-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
portermvp84
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I like the idea of games being played out the US...I think we should give it a try throwing a team in Canada. If it doesn't work out they can always with draw to another city or LA or something.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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allright, good points made.

let me ask you something. were the raptors really selling a few years ago when they had rob babcock as gm? no they weren't, they had a tough time selling tickets. why are they selling now? perhaps because they won the division last year, and are most likely going to make the playoffs again this year. like i said, you only sell in toronto if 1. you are the toronto maple leafs or 2. you are winning. i will stand by that, and i think most people from toronto will too, or at least should.

yes, a lot of canadians go to bills game, but a lot of those people dont mind driving 1.5 hours, when they only pay 50 buck for tickets. but how about now, when your gonna pay at least 30 dollars for parking, and tickets that average out to be at least $250? there are a lot of places in ontario which dont hold very wealthy people, who will not be able to pay top prices for tickets. if the bills move to toronto, for the most part, it will be a lot of "suits" who buy the tickets. at least for the few years it is a novelty. i owuld highly doubt that a lot of people from buffalo would come down to see a game. if anything, the cost to come down along with sour feelings of the team leaving would hold them back.

where i do agree that an nfl team in toronto would spell the end for the argos, i still dont think it would last. i am not convinced yet that there are enough true football fans in toronto to support the bills if they come. football is not a sport that a lot of people are knowledgable about. like i said, this will be a hot item for a short period of time, but once it wears its welcome, the team will be lucky to draw fans. especially if MLSE runs the team, because we all know that their #1 on the list is ROI. and they could care less about the product on the field/ ice. as apparent with the leafs.

good points as well, i didnt thikn about the bills fans being soured on the team because of the move.

However, i guess we will have to agree to disagree, i still think that the city could support a franchise. I guess we will have to just wait and see.
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Old 02-07-2008, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Both poinst are good..I think the bills should stay where they are.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Jim Kelly is dead-set on keeping the Bills in Buffalo. Also, I'm not hoping that he dies or anything, but I don't think Wilson cares about keeping the Bills in Buffalo, he wants to win a championship before he dies. He thinks Toronto is where the money will be but I tend (as a Bills fan obviously) to agree with Billingsley. I don't see Toronto being all that interested in the Bills since hockey is #1 up there. I'm really hoping that Kelly can come up with the money to get control of the team after Wilson dies because Kelly understands how much the Bills mean to Buffalo.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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I agree I think Kelly would be a great owner for the Bills.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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"It reminds me of my trip to Dallas a few months ago," Wilson said of the city where the Bills will play eight games over the next five years. "They're building in Dallas, Texas, everywhere, cranes, brand-new structures.
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he's definately right about this, all the time everywhere they are expanding out here...So if its the same in Toronto I can understand wanting to be in that environment, but fans have to be excited to go to the games, they need a guy to be the face of the franchise
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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It would take Mats Sundin moving over to the NFL to really get the people going in Toronto. What position could he play?
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Mats would be a good SLB, he got the size
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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I know Toronto is capable of holding a NFL franchise permanently. But are the people ready to support.( since you live there you would know)
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Being the fifth largest city in North America doesn't help if the people isn't interested in supporting the team. Living in Norway I don't know much about the interest for the NFL in Toronto, so what's your take on that 619?

The the support is good enough, I would think that financially it would be a good move by the Bills to relocate across the border.
Sorry, I have to disagree with Billingsley. Sure Toronto is not a football town and well known to be a hockey savvy town but we are one of the larger markets in North America where we could support just about anything seriously its quite remarkable.

When you have such a big population with people from all sorts of backgrounds and interests it is very possible. Hell our new MLS soccer team Toronto FC was selling out all of their games in their inaugural season and its highly likely to persist. The city has been calling for an NFL franchise for over 20 years now and is ready to throw out the big bucks as the NFL will witness when most of those 8 games in the next 5 years will sell out at $250+ a seat. From day one the NFL team would step in as the second biggest sports team in the city surpassing the Raptors and Jays who have been significant staples of the town sport's landscape during their existence. In fact Torontonians are also big supporters of the NCAA in general and many games are regularly televised.

This BS where the team would have to keep winning to sell tickets is BS as no valid comparison should honestly be made to baseball and basketball here. Id even argue there would be no drop in interest from lets say the first year to the fifth year. Not to mention it would be so-called "Canada's team" and many would make their way from across the country. People against this like Billingsley are only dreaming and its gonna happen one way or another as the NFL continues to globalize its brand. Right now I see little to no negatives in making the move and Im sure there are a lot of other capable cities like LA and San Antonio who could make just as valid a case. Football in this continent is in no short of interest!
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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I've got a couple this to say about this subject, but before I do I just wana point you out two a couple things. i wrote a blog on this subject a couple of weeks ago (u can find if from the link below) and after writing it i think it is very feasible idea. I have also done a lot of research on this topic and I created the Wikipedia article on the NFL in Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_in_Toronto). If you look at the history of the page, a lot of the editing is done by JoeSixPac which is also my wikipedia user name.

ne way.

I whole heartedly believe that the NFL can succeed in Toronto. the problem that some believe is selling tickets. if u look at teams like the jays, they are no-where near capacity on regular nights. but there is one main difference, the jays play 81 home games and an NFL team plays 8. 8 home games isn't hard 2 sell out. even when the raps weren't doing well they played 41 games over the season. this brings us back to economics, when you reduce the amount of games (81 or 41 baseball or basketball vs 8 NFL games) the demand for the tickets will increase.
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Old 02-07-2008, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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well.......

If the Buffalo Bills become the "Toronto Bills"



i would happily root for another team
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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I think it could work in Toronto. If for no other reason than football is simply more popular than the NBA and baseball. Hockey is the clearcut #1. But look at all the cities in the USA that support three or even four major sports teams. Denver(Broncos, Avs, Rockies, Nuggets), Dallas(Mavs, Stars, Cowboys), and Atlanta(Thrashers, Hawks, Braves, Falcons), with probably some more I'm forgetting. And those places aren't the New Yorks, LAs, and Chicagos of the world. Football can survive in a place that size as the #2 sport.
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I think it could work in Toronto. If for no other reason than football is simply more popular than the NBA and baseball. Hockey is the clearcut #1. But look at all the cities in the USA that support three or even four major sports teams. Denver(Broncos, Avs, Rockies, Nuggets), Dallas(Mavs, Stars, Cowboys), and Atlanta(Thrashers, Hawks, Braves, Falcons), with probably some more I'm forgetting. And those places aren't the New Yorks, LAs, and Chicagos of the world. Football can survive in a place that size as the #2 sport.
dallas has the texas rangers too.
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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dallas has the texas rangers too.
Yeah I wasn't sure about how "Dallas" the rangers were, and I had no idea where they played exactly. But if they're Dallas, chalk 'em up to the list.
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, I have to disagree with Billingsley. Sure Toronto is not a football town and well known to be a hockey savvy town but we are one of the larger markets in North America where we could support just about anything seriously its quite remarkable.

When you have such a big population with people from all sorts of backgrounds and interests it is very possible. Hell our new MLS soccer team Toronto FC was selling out all of their games in their inaugural season and its highly likely to persist. The city has been calling for an NFL franchise for over 20 years now and is ready to throw out the big bucks as the NFL will witness when most of those 8 games in the next 5 years will sell out at $250+ a seat. From day one the NFL team would step in as the second biggest sports team in the city surpassing the Raptors and Jays who have been significant staples of the town sport's landscape during their existence. In fact Torontonians are also big supporters of the NCAA in general and many games are regularly televised.

This BS where the team would have to keep winning to sell tickets is BS as no valid comparison should honestly be made to baseball and basketball here. Id even argue there would be no drop in interest from lets say the first year to the fifth year. Not to mention it would be so-called "Canada's team" and many would make their way from across the country. People against this like Billingsley are only dreaming and its gonna happen one way or another as the NFL continues to globalize its brand. Right now I see little to no negatives in making the move and Im sure there are a lot of other capable cities like LA and San Antonio who could make just as valid a case. Football in this continent is in no short of interest!
You see the difference between comparing places like Toronto and Dallas arent even fair. Dallas is in Texas, redneck country (sorry for the bias) and is in mad love for football. You know what they say about Texas. There are two seasons...Football season, and spring football season. They eat, sleep, and die football. Can the same be said about Toronto? NOPE!

The reason MLS was so successful is simple. Look at the makeup of the GTA. Where the States are, for the most part, made up of homegrown families and American famililes, Toronto is widely made up of immigrants and families that have little to no knowledge of football. Soccer is a worl wide sport, and is popular in just about every country. So when people come to Canada, they can feed off of it.

These immigrants are in the same position as one of us moving to India and having to take up a sport like crickett, where we have no idea about it. Thats the difference. Most of Toronto's population are immigrants, and people who dont speak very good english. Im by no means putting it down, but its jsut the way it is. Hockey is famous here because it is our sport. You are born to love hockey.

619, dont take this personal, but would your parents care if the Bills came to Toronto? My first guess would be not. Would they care if MLS came to Toronto? I would say yes. And I dont ever know your parents all that well. But there is a heavy immigrant prescence in the GTA which are more into sports other than football. Thats how it is different in the States. Canadians dont eat, sleep and breath football like Americans do.

I beg to differ still about the team growing. I forget who said that youth football registrations are going way up, but I beg to differ that as well. (I think it was etk). Highschool football populations are going down. More and more schools are dropping football each year, and need I say anything about the university football programs in the area? Youth leagues are cutting teams out eah year (Brampton and Mississauga are), and even in the OVFL teams are having less players play. (Halton had about 20 kids, Mississauga won with under 37 kids on the roster) and I know because Ive played for them all.

Like Ive said before, my father is heavily into football in the province of Ontario -again, take from it what you want- at all levels, and even he says that football isnt what it it used to be back in the 90's. It is on the decline.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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i have stated this before, and i will again. as for what 619 said, we live right down the road from each other, but have completely opposite views. i think toronto is capabale of holding an nfl team, but they arent ready. i dont think the cfl will stop anything, but i do think that it is a bit of picture as to what football looks like in toronto. toronto is filled, and i mean filled with maple leafs fans. i have said before, when the raptors were garbage, the fans werent watching. the jays draw flies, whether they are good or bad. the argos couldnt draw when flutie was here and was lights out. anyone catch my drift? you could put osama bin laden and 4 other terrorists int he blue and white and they would sell out the ACC for 41 straight games. that is how crazy people are for the nhl in toronto.

just to give everyone else another take on this move, the hamilton tiger-cats have pulled out from being a partern with bringing these games to toronto. their owner bob young, said that he sees no benefit to the area or to the cfl or nfl in doing this.

fifth largest city in north america doesnt mean anything. buffalo has been dperessing forever now and still sells out. population size of the city means absolutley squat. ive alread used examples like green bay, jacksonville and buffalo. teams will always draw from the outside areas.

as for ticket prices. yes buffalo bills tickets are the cheapest in the league. if they come to toronto, oh boy, look for top3 ticket prices in the league. no kidding either. in toronto, people will pay for tickets. but only on two occasions. 1. if you are the toronto maple leafs and 2. if the team is winning. as optimistic as you want to be, can anyone really see this team competing with the patriots for the division anytime soon? i cant. and i can tell you that this will be a novelty in toronto for a few years to begin with, but once people get tired of shelling out several hundred dollars every sunday for a below average football, then the team will be like the argos. no kidding either.

roger godell doesnt know what hes getting into. he doesnt understand the market in toronto. yes there is money, but is there money that will be spent on a mediocre afc east team?

on another note, one thing i think that ralph is doing wrong is holding on toe team. im all for him keeping the team, because he is the original owner, but i feel that he is helping the team leve buffalo. if ralph really wanted to keep it in buffalo, he could sell the team to a group like jim kelly's group, who apparently have the money to keep the team alive and build a new stadium. we all know that when ralph dies the team will be basically put up for auction and the highest bidder will win. i can guarantee that whoever it is, wont be from WNY or the GTA. im thinking LA. i think ralph can do something to keep the team in buffalo, and selling the team while he still can would do it.

I completley agree.
Especially the last paragraph
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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well.......

If the Buffalo Bills become the "Toronto Bills"



i would happily root for another team
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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people are also forgetting one thing. the people that will go to the game will expand past the 5 million in the GTA region. a NFL franchise in toronto will attract fans from all across the golden horseshoe, thats a population of more than 8 million within less than an hour of the Rogers Centre. u can also add in people that will come from even further (ie london, peterburough, kingston ect.) the large number of buffalonians that will make the trek to Toronto for the games can't be forgotten too.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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I beg to differ still about the team growing. I forget who said that youth football registrations are going way up, but I beg to differ that as well. (I think it was etk). Highschool football populations are going down. More and more schools are dropping football each year, and need I say anything about the university football programs in the area? Youth leagues are cutting teams out eah year (Brampton and Mississauga are), and even in the OVFL teams are having less players play. (Halton had about 20 kids, Mississauga won with under 37 kids on the roster) and I know because Ive played for them all.
Well, football is growing here in Québec, maybe they should move the bills here in Montreal. I'll have my jersey and season ticket by the next day lol.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Well, football is growing here in Québec, maybe they should move the bills here in Montreal. I'll have my jersey and season ticket by the next day lol.
There is no doubt that the hot spots for football in Canada are in Quebec and out west. There are pure football fans from young ages right through to older folks. No doubt. I think a team in say Montreal or Quebec City, or Edmonton or Calgary would do much better than Toronto. And you could say that they could draw fans from all over as well.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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There was talk of an NFL game in Montreal last week in the papers, that the guy who manage the olympic stadium was contacted by the NFL to host a game, but he declined, can't blame him, the stadium is one of the less comfortable place you can go. They play on a kind of Astro turf that is dangerous to play on. They played the Alouettes playoff game 2 years ago in there and players just had negative thing to say about it.
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Old 02-07-2008, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Can always use another Ravens fan, come jump on the Willis McGahee bandwagon!

i already hate the fact that buffalo has a horrible offense lol


it'd be like watching the bills
but in black and purple
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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I get a kick out of this post and all the false information posted here. Toronto is not only the 5th largest market in North America, it has another 3 million people who live closs by giving it a base population of 8 million nevermind that the rest of the country would make it their team and support it.
The Toronto Blue Jays averaged over 4,000,000 fans a year until a Belgian Brewery bought the team and reduced the payroll from over 100 million a year to around 25 million a year which of course resuted in piss poor teams. Under new onwership the last 3 years, the Blue Jays are drawing well over 2 million fans a year and will break 3 million and maybe get back to 4 million if we can field a serious playoff team. The Raptures are one of the soundest financial franchises in the NBA and regularly sell out their games even though they haven't made the playoffs very often. It is utter nonmsense to think that Toronto is a hockey only city.
Toronto gets on average 6 NFL games a week on its TV and most Toronto football fans know that the CFL is just a minor league which would disappear if the Bills move.
Toronto would sell out its stadium with little problem for football with or without Bill's fans although we would perfer that we would keep them. If the team resided in Toronto and played its whole season at home, we have have regular ticket prices similar to most high population cities in the US. The prices they are charging for 1 or 2 games a year is totally inflated to make as much money as possible since the demand is high and the # of games is low.
All the talk about this Buffalo or that Buffalo group buying the franchise from Wilson isn't going to happen. On the open market the Bills are worth close to a billion dollars and there is no way the team can remain in Buffalo after Wilson dies because no local people can afford that much money. The team is going to move period, so its move it to Toronto where Bills fans can retain there seats or watch it sold to an LA owner and have no access to football.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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I get a kick out of this post and all the false information posted here. Toronto is not onl;y the 5th largest market in North America, it has another 3 million people who live closs by giving it a base population of 8 million nevermind that the rest of the country would make it their team and support it.
The Toronto Blue Jays averaged over 4,000,000 fans a year until a Belgian Brewery bought the team and reduced the payroll from over 100 million a year to around 25 million a year which of course resuted in piss poor teams. Under new onwership the last 3 years, the Blue Jays are drawing well over 2 million fans a year and will break 3 million and maybe get back to 4 million if we can field a serious playoff team. The Raptures are one of the soundest financial franchises in the NBA and regularly sell out their games even though they haven't made the playoffs very often. It is utter nonmsense to think that Toronto is a hockey only city.
Toronto gets on average 6 NFL games a week on its TV and most Toronto football fans know that the CFL is just a minor league which would disappear if the Bills move.
Toronto would sell out its stadium with little problem for football with or without Bill's fans although we would perfer that we would keep them. If the team resided in Toronto and played its whole season at home, we have have regular ticket prices similar to most high population cities in the US. The prices they are charging for 1 or 2 games a year is totally inflated to make as much money as possible since the demand is high and the # of games is low.
All the talk about
Well, the Jays did everything you could do in 2 years. World Series, AllStar game, MVP's, CY Young's you name it. Broke the record for highest attendance. Why were they drawing so high? They were winning, thats why. When the team tanks, they draw no one. How about 3 years ago (i think 3 years ago) when the Jays were about 3 games back of the AL East lead from the Yankees in September. WEre they drawing then? That was pretty close to wasnt it?

The Raptors weren't drawing when they were losing. I dont know where you got that from. When Babcock was teh GM, and they drafted Arujao #1, the team was a mess. They were a bottom 5 team in the league. They didnt draw. As of late, they have been selling out game after game. They were after division champs last year.

You know why Toronto gets 6 NFL games a week? Lets see. 1 game is the NBS Sunday Nighter, shown Nationally, 1 is the ESPN Monday Nighter shown Nationally, 2-3 games will be shown on CBS and FOX depending on where you live, across the continent. Does this pertain to Canada? Does showing these games in Canada prove anythign about Canadian fans? Seeing as they are American channels, I dont think so.

No, Toronto fans know the CFL is just a minor league. Go tell Hoops, Critesy, or Woot that the CFL is a minor league and see what they say. Go out west or east an tell them its a minor league. The CFL is revered everywhere but Toronto.

I will agree with you though, that the Dome will see out for the beginning, however, after the 5 years (or whatever time eriod it is) ends, the population sizes will depend on the teams success. After all, would you pay $250 a ticket to see the Bills lose 56-10 to the PAtriots? Catch my drift.

I am not sold on Toronto being a sports town, rather a hockey town. I have shown the type of people who live in Toronto, and what the biggest sports are as far as fan bae goes. Someone brought up youth leagues which wasnt right. Like I said, this event will sell in the beginning, but beyond that solely lies with how well the team performs. And as we have seen with every sport not named hockey, a losing team wont sell.
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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Well, the Jays did everything you could do in 2 years. World Series, AllStar game, MVP's, CY Young's you name it. Broke the record for highest attendance. Why were they drawing so high? They were winning, thats why. When the team tanks, they draw no one. How about 3 years ago (i think 3 years ago) when the Jays were about 3 games back of the AL East lead from the Yankees in September. WEre they drawing then? That was pretty close to wasnt it?
I would argue the baseball strike in '94 killed baseball in not only Montreal but in Toronto as well. Otherwise they would have continued to build off that success and the Jays would still be the #2 draw in the city.
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