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Old 02-07-2008, 10:34 PM    (permalink
skiinginNJ
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That happens.. but there's plays where he barely snaps the ball and a DL is in the backfield (See Either Jags game, NE game, etc.)

and it also has to do with the fact his WR's can't get open.

and the giants recievers had an easy time getting open.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Actually statistically his numbers are much better than Bradshaw's at this point in their careers with a worse supporting cast so I'd say that isn't a very big stretch.
Oh brother.
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Eli's opportunity to become a legend.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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For the Steelers fans to say Ben is better and it isn't even close is atrocious.

I don't mind you saying he is better...hell I have them neck and neck and until this postseason I had Ben rated above Eli...but you guys act like he is the 2nd coming of Bradshaw. Holy cow.
Well, there's your problem right there. You're putting an obscene amount of stock in a 4 game playoff stretch.

The fact is that Ben Roethlisberger was the second highest rated passer in the NFL this year.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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If i had to pick one of these QBs on my team right NOW... it would be Eli Manning. It may have taken a while, but I truly believe what we have seen of Eli in the playoffs and the regular season game against NE was a harbinger of things to come... also realize, Eli elevated his game against the BEST competition available. That's incredible.

Eli was the better prospect coming out, and I think he's finally living up to his hype. People will say that Big Ben has more "body of work", but that's meaningless as to who's going to be better and who has more upside. Eli is the prototypical QB and is playing so well in a city with that much pressure.

I'd like to note that for Big Ben lovers, I think he is a great QB, but I just can't see him being a dominant QB like I see Eli potentially being (and he was elite in the playoffs). For some reason (i don't really have stats to back this up, it's just a gut feeling), but I would not be very comfortable having Big Ben try to win the game for me at the end. Also, it seems no one wants to see Big Ben throw for more than 20-25 times...
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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Well, there's your problem right there. You're putting an obscene amount of stock in a 4 game playoff stretch.

The fact is that Ben Roethlisberger was the second highest rated passer in the NFL this year.
Go look at the QB ratings.

Then tell me if you think Eli is worse than everybody that he is behind.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:41 PM    (permalink
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Oh brother.
it really isn't that far fetched. the most TD's Bradshaw ever had in a season was 28 and that was in his 9th season. Big Ben has broken that mark already in his 4th. I don't have Ben ranked over Bradshaw yet on the all-times list but he is close. And quit acting like you aren't basically saying that Eli isn't the "2nd coming" of Fran or Phil.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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My opinion has been pretty much the same since last year -

1) Ben
2) Rivers
3) Eli

Eli Manning has to put together a quality 16 game season before he moves up out of the basement of the 04 QB rankings. He had a great playoff run, worthy of praise, but so did Jake Delhomme for example in the 03-04 playoffs.
Thats my point. Ben had a great 04, 05 and 07.

Rivers was the best in 2006.

People like to bring up that "He doesn't throw 30 times a game" or "He didn't throw for 300 yards" crap, but he's what..

At Age 25:
44 - 20 Reg Season (3 Playoff appearances, 1AFCCG Loss, 1 SB Win)
5-2 career in the postseason.

At age 27:

30-25 reg Season (3 playoff appearances, 1 SB win)
4-2 post season record.

I'll say this as well. Eli made the playoffs in 2006 among a 8-8 record. One which would not have made it into the playoffs in the AFC. If it Did, Ben would've had 4 Playoff appearances.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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Well, there's your problem right there. You're putting an obscene amount of stock in a 4 game playoff stretch.

The fact is that Ben Roethlisberger was the second highest rated passer in the NFL this year.
QB rating is such a horribly flawed stat. Anyone coach will tell you that. A lot of coaches don't even rate QBs at all by the statisitcian created QB rating.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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QB rating is such a horribly flawed stat. Anyone coach will tell you that. A lot of coaches don't even rate QBs at all by the statisitcian created QB rating.
Ok, how about TDs and Ints. Ben threw for 9 more TDs and 9 less INTs.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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QB rating is such a horribly flawed stat. Anyone coach will tell you that. A lot of coaches don't even rate QBs at all by the statisitcian created QB rating.
i agree with you that it is a flawed stat but the fact that people can throw it out for Tom Brady and Peyton Manning but not have it thrown out for anyone else, is a double standard.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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it really isn't that far fetched. the most TD's Bradshaw ever had in a season was 28 and that was in his 9th season. Big Ben has broken that mark already in his 4th. I don't have Ben ranked over Bradshaw yet on the all-times list but he is close. And quit acting like you aren't basically saying that Eli isn't the "2nd coming" of Fran or Phil.
Ah yes the TD numbers argument. That was an entirely different era of football, not even close.

And no, don't put words in my mouth. Eli is not even close to Simms right now.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Ah yes the TD numbers argument. That was an entirely different era of football, not even close.

And no, don't put words in my mouth. Eli is not even close to Simms right now.
oh so you can put words in the steelers fans mouth but we can't in yours?? no one even brought up Bradshaw until you did. just because we happen to think what we think is coincidence but you were making stuff up out of thin air as well.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Seriously, we're all supposed to forget the fact that Eli has averaged nearly 20 ints, a 55% comp percentage, and a 76.0 passer rating over each of the last three years...just because, he played well in the playoffs? In comparison to league averages, he's below average. He's not even a top 10 Qb...It was nice to see him (the underdog) win a super bowl but, talk about being overrated lately. Like I said, there is no guarantee that his playoff success will even carry over to next season. I ranked Eli 2nd by default just cause he got that ring but, I'll take Rivers over him any day, at this point. I'm sorry but, I'm still far from sold.

A few weeks ago there was talk that his job wasnt even guaranteed for next season...I think people may be jumping the gun a bit here.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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If i had to pick one of these QBs on my team right NOW... it would be Eli Manning. It may have taken a while, but I truly believe what we have seen of Eli in the playoffs and the regular season game against NE was a harbinger of things to come... also realize, Eli elevated his game against the BEST competition available. That's incredible.

Eli was the better prospect coming out, and I think he's finally living up to his hype. People will say that Big Ben has more "body of work", but that's meaningless as to who's going to be better and who has more upside. Eli is the prototypical QB and is playing so well in a city with that much pressure.

I'd like to note that for Big Ben lovers, I think he is a great QB, but I just can't see him being a dominant QB like I see Eli potentially being (and he was elite in the playoffs). For some reason (i don't really have stats to back this up, it's just a gut feeling), but I would not be very comfortable having Big Ben try to win the game for me at the end. Also, it seems no one wants to see Big Ben throw for more than 20-25 times...
The whole throw for more than 25 times thing is ********.

Ben doesn't have to throw more than 20-25 times a game because he has a high completion rate and a better YPA rate.



Here's a writeup from the Steelers board I did about say 5-6 weeks into the season..


Quote:
Here's my opinion on Ben. He only needs 20-25 passes a game. Why? Because, he has one of the best YPA's in the league year in and out. He's one of the most accurate QB's in the league as well.

Ben Roethlisberger is tied for the 3rd highest YPA in the league (Favre and Manning). Now thats pretty good. He seems to be pretty content to throw 20-25 times a game.

Eli Manning, a 56.1% Completion, 6.3 yard per attempt average.
Marc Bulger, 58.5% completion, 6.3 yard per attempt average.
Jason Campbell, a 60.0% Completion, 6.5 YPA average
Drew Brees, 67.5% Completion, 6.7 YPA Average.

Say Ben and Eli have a faceoff and decide they want to throw it for 500 yards a piece. In doing so each has 5 TD's and 2 Picks.

Eli has, on average, to throw the ball 80 times. Of those 80 Passes, only 44 would be caught. Giving Eli:

44/79 for 500yds, 5TD's 2 Picks, 84.375 QB Rating.

Ben on the other hand has to only attempt 64 passes, 16 fewer attempts than Eli. Of those 64 passes Ben would complete 42. 2 fewer than Eli, but on 16 less attempts. Ben would then have:

42/64 for 500yards, 5TD's, 2 Picks and 102.344QB Rating.

Or we could use this Theoretical state:

Instead of guaging by yards. What about Attempts?

Each throws the ball 100 times.

Eli Manning would be:

56/100, 630 yards, YPA: 6.30 yards, YPC: 11.25, TD's: 7, TD per Attempt: 0.07, INT: 7, INT per attempt: .07

QB Rating: 69.167

Ben:

65/100, 780 yards, YPA: 7.8, YPC:12, TD's: 8, TD Per Attempt: .08, INT: 2, INT per Attempt: .02

QB Rating: 107.083
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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oh so you can put words in the steelers fans mouth but we can't in yours?? no one even brought up Bradshaw until you did. just because we happen to think what we think is coincidence but you were making stuff up out of thin air as well.
For you to say Ben is on an entirely different level than Eli would be putting Ben into the elite class...a la Bradshaw. Thus, I brought him up and you actually think Ben is knocking on his door.

Unlike you, I have not inflated Eli to that kind of status because he is the QB of my favorite team.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Ah yes the TD numbers argument. That was an entirely different era of football, not even close.

And no, don't put words in my mouth. Eli is not even close to Simms right now.
It was a different era, but Bradshaw most certainly took time to develop. The year the Steelers won their first Super Bowl, 1974, Bradshaw lost the starting job for four games of the season, and that was his 5th year in the league. To say that at this point in his career Ben is equal to if not better than Bradshaw was is most certainly not ridiculous.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Seriously, we're all supposed to forget the fact that Eli has averaged nearly 20 ints, a 55% comp percentage, and a 76.0 passer rating over each of the last three years...just because, he played well in the playoffs? In comparison to league averages, he's below average. He's not even a top 10 Qb...It was nice to see him (the underdog) win a super bowl but, talk about being overrated lately. Like I said, there is no guarantee that his playoff success will even carry over to next season. I ranked Eli 2nd by default just cause he got that ring but, I'll take Rivers over him any day, at this point. I'm sorry but, I'm still far from sold.

A few weeks ago there was talk that his job wasnt even guaranteed for next season...I think people may be jumping the gun a bit here.
Where was his job in 2008 ever in question?
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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QB rating is such a horribly flawed stat. Anyone coach will tell you that. A lot of coaches don't even rate QBs at all by the statisitcian created QB rating.
How about leading the NFL in turnovers during the regular season? How pointless is that stat?

See, what you guys are trying to set up is this comfortable little zone where we can't argue numbers because they're so "flawed". So what else are we supposed to go by? That Manning survived two should have been interceptions in the Super Bowl and needed David Tyree to make a circus catch, and Ellis Hobbs to blow a coverage?

You just can't rate players that way. You need to evaluate the entire body of work, not just one or two plays, or a window of games.
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Old 02-07-2008, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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For you to say Ben is on an entirely different level than Eli would be putting Ben into the elite class...a la Bradshaw. Thus, I brought him up and you actually think Ben is knocking on his door.

Unlike you, I have not inflated Eli to that kind of status because he is the QB of my favorite team.
your sig says otherwise.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Where was his job in 2008 ever in question?
Did you skip over everything else he just said?
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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your sig says otherwise.
Eli could throw 30 INTs next year and lose his job in 2010...but his legacy will remain, in stone, in Super Bowl history. That drive, that escape, the throws.....that was an epic performance. In no way does that put him on the same level as Phil Simms.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Did you skip over everything else he just said?

.............? No?
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Namy View Post
If i had to pick one of these QBs on my team right NOW... it would be Eli Manning. It may have taken a while, but I truly believe what we have seen of Eli in the playoffs and the regular season game against NE was a harbinger of things to come... also realize, Eli elevated his game against the BEST competition available. That's incredible.

Eli was the better prospect coming out, and I think he's finally living up to his hype. People will say that Big Ben has more "body of work", but that's meaningless as to who's going to be better and who has more upside. Eli is the prototypical QB and is playing so well in a city with that much pressure.

I'd like to note that for Big Ben lovers, I think he is a great QB, but I just can't see him being a dominant QB like I see Eli potentially being (and he was elite in the playoffs). For some reason (i don't really have stats to back this up, it's just a gut feeling), but I would not be very comfortable having Big Ben try to win the game for me at the end. Also, it seems no one wants to see Big Ben throw for more than 20-25 times...
Ben had just as high of a ceiling as Eli coming out.

"In fact, in the long run Roethlisberger could turn out to be a better pro than Manning because he certainly possesses a more impressive array of physical tools"-Scott Wright

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Old 02-07-2008, 11:06 PM    (permalink
Turtlepower
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I'd really wish that we had more people outside of Steelers, Giants, and Chargers Fans (well, only San Diego Chicken =D) who would come in and argue. Obviously everyone here is going to root for their own QB and each person had a great point. Ben and Eli won a SB and if the Chargers didn't get a million injuries prior to the NE game, it could have been a Rivers vs. Manning SB. Honestly, I think it is a tie between Ben and Eli with Phillip Rivers coming up from behind (mostly because he has much less playing experience).

Come on guys, just stay civil and understand that their really isn't a huge amount of separation between these 3 players.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
Giants, ASU Sun Devils, Yankees
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:06 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Eli could throw 30 INTs next year and lose his job in 2010...but his legacy will remain, in stone, in Super Bowl history. That drive, that escape, the throws.....that was an epic performance. In no way does that put him on the same level as Phil Simms.
....

thats the stuff Ben has to do everygame.. drive downfield, avoiding 2-3 DL at a time and make throws rolling away from defenders.

Lets Compare the Playoff runs.


Eli: (@ 27 years old)

72/119, 60.5% Completion, 854 yards, 7.2 YPA Avg., 6 TD, 1 INT.
8 rushes for 10 yards.
2 Fumbles.

Ben: (@ 23 Years old)

58/93, 62.4% Completion, 803 yards, 8.6 YPA Avg., 7 TD, 3 INT.
19 rushes for 39 yards, 2 TDS.
0 Fumbles.
1 Game saving Tackle.
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