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Old 02-07-2008, 11:11 PM    (permalink
steelernation77
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Originally Posted by Turtlepower View Post
I'd really wish that we had more people outside of Steelers, Giants, and Chargers Fans (well, only San Diego Chicken =D) who would come in and argue. Obviously everyone here is going to root for their own QB and each person had a great point. Ben and Eli won a SB and if the Chargers didn't get a million injuries prior to the NE game, it could have been a Rivers vs. Manning SB. Honestly, I think it is a tie between Ben and Eli with Phillip Rivers coming up from behind (mostly because he has much less playing experience).

Come on guys, just stay civil and understand that their really isn't a huge amount of separation between these 3 players.
I'd say there is. Ben is a top 5 QB.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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okay. ben is on a different level than rivers and eli.
eli is mediocre. basically. a bit better than grossman last year. y'know. grossman was slightly (okay, a lot) more erratic than eli, but still ended up with similar td-int ratios (see, what gets me with that stat though is you have to think of it like baseball, like run values. for a fielder, run production + fielding ability = quality of player... aka, the troy tulowitzki/hanley ramierez debate...)

that being said. the more consistent quarterback is the better quarterback.
which would mean. 1. Ben, 2. Rivers, 3. Eli.

Why? Sure, Rivers is pretty good. Not a playmaker like Ben, but built to play a little more defensively. He'll throw when he has to and not make mistakes. Sure, plenty of that is built on the fact you have LT/LN in the backfield (i think people shouldn't neglect that Lorenzo Neil is damn near god.) But, Ben is the more pressured quarterback. He makes throws, runs, yes, he has willie parker, but, he also doesn't have a target like... LT or Gates, VJax/Chris Chambers. O-lines i'd say are about equal. So. Duh. My edge goes to ben.
Eli is off in like Garrard land. Closely followed by the rest of those classes.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Where was his job in 2008 ever in question?
At the beginning of the year there were tons of stories of Eli and Coughlin being on the hot seats. I remember reading story after story on BenMaller...take it for what you will because, i've been looking for the past 15 minutes and cant find a link but, I know what I read.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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At the beginning of the year there were tons of stories of Eli and Coughlin being on the hot seats. I remember reading story after story on BenMaller...take it for what you will because, i've been looking for the past 15 minutes and cant find a link but, I know what I read.
Eli's job was never in jeopardy.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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I'd say there is. Ben is a top 5 QB.
no way.

no. way.



brady.
manning.
palmer.
brees.
romo.
favre. (not retiring. to my joy)
bulger.

THEN ben.

you have to consider all of those. and maybe mcnabb too. i mean. when/if mcnabb gets 'weapons' he will 'run and shoot' and look better than ben as a qb. assuming he's healthy. maybe even hasselbeck too.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I'd say there is. Ben is a top 5 QB.
We found your problem.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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no way.

no. way.

brady.
manning.
palmer.
brees.
romo.
favre. (not retiring. to my joy)
bulger.

THEN ben.

you have to consider all of those. and maybe mcnabb too. i mean. when/if mcnabb gets 'weapons' he will 'run and shoot' and look better than ben as a qb. assuming he's healthy. maybe even hasselbeck too.
Sorry but I would not Palmer, Brees, or Bulger ahead of Ben. Romo is debatable but I'll let you have it.
Manning
Brady
Favre
Romo
Ben

I'd say that's a reasonable list.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
At the beginning of the year there were tons of stories of Eli and Coughlin being on the hot seats. I remember reading story after story on BenMaller...take it for what you will because, i've been looking for the past 15 minutes and cant find a link but, I know what I read.
What is BenMaller? Anyway, maybe some idiot who writes on Yahoo said Eli's job was on the hot seat, but anyone with any knowledge of the Giants and their orginization knew Eli's job was never in jeapordy.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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Sorry but I would not Palmer, Brees, or Bulger ahead of Ben. Romo is debatable but I'll let you have it.
Manning
Brady
Favre
Romo
Ben

I'd say that's a reasonable list.
Too shortsighted.

Palmer is a better quarterback playing with no defense. Ergo, sure the wins don't pile up, and he's never on the field. He's better though... Uglier. Yes. but better.
Bulger had a ****** year. He had less of and Oline than you have ever seen. And a defense as bad as... no. not THAT bad. brees is the only one i'll give you that might be on the same category as ben. but there's still two at least ahead of him that'd kick him out. and maybe *gasp* a healthy mcnabb. or derek anderson being good actually. i'd really like to see ben next year. i don't think he's going to be anywhere near as good. he'll be pretty good. but production? oh noes. no starks, or faneca, mean you'll be looking like the chicago bears. all filler, no killer.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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What is BenMaller? Anyway, maybe some idiot who writes on Yahoo said Eli's job was on the hot seat, but anyone with any knowledge of the Giants and their orginization knew Eli's job was never in jeapordy.
BenMaller is a rumor site that gets it's information from newspapers around the world...among other inside sources. Like I said, take it for what you will.

If his job was in jeopardy or not he was still not playing at a high level. He's been average his entire career....and if you go by stats alone...below average.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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What is BenMaller? Anyway, maybe some idiot who writes on Yahoo said Eli's job was on the hot seat, but anyone with any knowledge of the Giants and their orginization knew Eli's job was never in jeapordy.
I love the people who blew Reese's comments about Eli being "skittish" way out of proportion. What is he supposed to say after he has a bad game?

Seriously, anyone who says that Eli is not a franchise QB or is at least on par or around the level of Ben "the running game is more important to success " Roethlisberger does not watch enough film on the QBs.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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The one thing I'm excited about next year, is even more control of this offense based directly around Eli. Two things happened in this playoff run that sparked Eli and the offense. One was the elimination of many option routes, meaning receivers no longer were running wrong routes. Many times Eli threw to empty spaces becuase WRs and TEs weren't making the correct ready on the coverage, blitz, etc. The second was Gilbride allowed Eli to call his own audibles on third down.

I like the Eli and River comparisons better. Comparing these guys to Ben is like apples and oranges based upon what each QB does within their offense.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Too shortsighted.

Palmer is a better quarterback playing with no defense. Ergo, sure the wins don't pile up, and he's never on the field. He's better though... Uglier. Yes. but better.
Bulger had a ****** year. He had less of and Oline than you have ever seen. And a defense as bad as... no. not THAT bad. brees is the only one i'll give you that might be on the same category as ben. but there's still two at least ahead of him that'd kick him out. and maybe *gasp* a healthy mcnabb. or derek anderson being good actually. i'd really like to see ben next year. i don't think he's going to be anywhere near as good. he'll be pretty good. but production? oh noes. no starks, or faneca, mean you'll be looking like the chicago bears. all filler, no killer.
There's no reason to think Ben's stats won't improve. He's a young quarterback who has steadily improved who's career was marred early by a freak accident, an appendectomy and concussions. Ben's o-line was already terrible this year. Max Starks doesn't even start for the Steelers, so I doubt he will be missed except for depth. Palmer makes mistakes at crucial times. I've seen plenty of the Begnals to know that. Bulger may have an equally worse o-line, but he also has a very underrated WR in Tory Holt, a veteran in Bruce, and Steven Jackson. Derek Anderson is extremely overrated. He's a decent NFL starter but struggles with accuracy, throwing intermediate routes, and sustaining drives. A healthy McNabb is a big if, he's a great player but his best days are behind him.

To compare the Steelers offense to the Bears is asinine. The two are nothing alike.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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There's no reason to think Ben's stats won't improve. He's a young quarterback who has steadily improved who's career was marred early by a freak accident, an appendectomy and concussions.
As someone who has had an appendectomy, this bothers me. It is a nothing surgery. I can't see placing any blame on a terrible season because of missing a few games because of an appendectomy.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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As someone who has had an appendectomy, this bothers me. It is a nothing surgery. I can't see placing any blame on a terrible season because of missing a few games because of an appendectomy.
It wasn't the appendectomy alone, it was that he spent several months recovering from a near fatal accident, losing 20lbs. in strength along the way, and then had to recover from another surgery right after. Recovering from an appendectomy is nothing generally, but when it occurs when your body and immune system is already weak from major surgery, it can be a lot to handle.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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no way.

no. way.



brady.
manning.
palmer.
brees.
romo.
favre. (not retiring. to my joy)
bulger.

THEN ben.

you have to consider all of those. and maybe mcnabb too. i mean. when/if mcnabb gets 'weapons' he will 'run and shoot' and look better than ben as a qb. assuming he's healthy. maybe even hasselbeck too.
Big Ben > Bulger and Romo
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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after reading this thread number10 you are the most jaded homer i have ever seen in my entire life.... your sig claims he is now a legend because he won a superbowl? get out of here. stop trying to pump up your qb because he was part of a great team that won the sb, seriously you are making yourself look ********. this is exactly why i created a thread that said, before the hype starts tom brady is still better than your teams qb maybe other than the colts and eli manning isnt now a top 5 qb. you are way too hyped off his sb playoff performance and acting like he has become a phenomonal qb...lets wait til the 2008 season first ok? and to say he wasnt on the hot seat? what if the giants continued to play bad and never made the playoffs? u think fans and media in ny wouldnt be clamoring for either coughlin or eli to go? you are blind sir. eli showed progress but as of now it has to be

ben>eli>rivers and rivers not far behind eli

stats mean everything and in the regular season he just hasnt got it done

and i beg you not to use some stupid redskins excuse, because it has nothing to do with my opinion on this matter
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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More important to his team?
1. Ben
2. Eli
3. Rivers
More Upside
1. Rivers
2. Eli
3. Ben
Best so far?
Hard to say they all have been all over the place Ben had this won till these play offs but Eli and Phillip both made huge strides in the play offs

When Ben and Eli won they both had good to great D's SOlid vetren Receivers and good run games dead even.
Rivers has one less year of playing time but after what i saw him do this year I think we could have a photo finish by this time next year.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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To compare the Steelers offense to the Bears is asinine. The two are nothing alike.
I'm saying it in a 'run first' sort of way. Which the steelers are. Colon is pretty good. I'll give you that. Starks still played a bunch of downs and did start 4 late season games. *shrugs*. this isn't a fight on starks.

And that was a predictive statement. y'know.

oh. and blah blah blah appendectomy.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:53 PM    (permalink
kmartin575
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
My opinion has been pretty much the same since last year -

1) Ben
2) Rivers
3) Eli

Eli Manning has to put together a quality 16 game season before he moves up out of the basement of the 04 QB rankings. He had a great playoff run, worthy of praise, but so did Jake Delhomme for example in the 03-04 playoffs.

And since when has Rivers put together a quality 16 game season?

Exactly.
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Old 02-07-2008, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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It wasn't the appendectomy alone, it was that he spent several months recovering from a near fatal accident, losing 20lbs. in strength along the way, and then had to recover from another surgery right after. Recovering from an appendectomy is nothing generally, but when it occurs when your body and immune system is already weak from major surgery, it can be a lot to handle.
At which point, Ben climbed the himalayas solo and proved once and for all he is the Steelers quarterback. Now imbued with both the Iron Fist of K'un-L'un and the Eye of Agamotto, Ben proved himself better than Eli once again by being the first quarterback to throw a 99 yard touchdown with all eleven players of the opposing defense as well as three backups who had ran onto the field on his back. An accomplishment far superior than Eli's so called "great escape" and subsequent Superbowl victory.
I did not type this with a straight face. I couldn't do it.
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:00 AM    (permalink
steelernation77
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I'm saying it in a 'run first' sort of way. Which the steelers are. Colon is pretty good. I'll give you that. Starks still played a bunch of downs and did start 4 late season games. *shrugs*. this isn't a fight on starks.

And that was a predictive statement. y'know.

oh. and blah blah blah appendectomy.
The Bears don't have a franchise QB, or a proven RB on the roster, it's really not a reasonable comparison.
If the Steelers go OL early and often in the draft, I think they could end up having a better OL next year than this year. Starks started because of injuries.

As far as your meaningless appendectomy comment, try blah blah blah nearly dying in a motorcycle accident requiring extensive major surgery followed by another minor surgery and concussions.
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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At which point, Ben climbed the himalayas solo and proved once and for all he is the Steelers quarterback. Now imbued with both the Iron Fist of K'un-L'un and the Eye of Agamotto, Ben proved himself better than Eli once again by being the first quarterback to throw a 99 yard touchdown with all eleven players of the opposing defense as well as three backups who had ran onto the field on his back. An accomplishment far superior than Eli's so called "great escape" and subsequent Superbowl victory.
I did not type this with a straight face. I couldn't do it.
? insightful.
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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What I don't understand is why it is so hard for Eli to get some credit after winning a god damn Super Bowl? I think that most of us Giants fans don't believe that Eli is 10x better than Roethlisberger or is better than Tom Brady, but to say they are not in the range of equality when it comes to being a QB in the NFL is ridiculous. Both QBs are known more for their game management skills compared to their overall game-changing skills and both have a SB ring to be proud of.

I've always loved Big Ben, but to say that some of his sacks are not entirely his fault because he isn't getting rid of the ball quick enough is also ridiculous. The steelers o-line is bad, but there are worse in the NFL. Much worse.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
Giants, ASU Sun Devils, Yankees
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:05 AM    (permalink
Number 10
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Originally Posted by 703SKINS202 View Post
after reading this thread number10 you are the most jaded homer i have ever seen in my entire life.... your sig claims he is now a legend because he won a superbowl? get out of here. stop trying to pump up your qb because he was part of a great team that won the sb, seriously you are making yourself look ********. this is exactly why i created a thread that said, before the hype starts tom brady is still better than your teams qb maybe other than the colts and eli manning isnt now a top 5 qb. you are way too hyped off his sb playoff performance and acting like he has become a phenomonal qb...lets wait til the 2008 season first ok? and to say he wasnt on the hot seat? what if the giants continued to play bad and never made the playoffs? u think fans and media in ny wouldnt be clamoring for either coughlin or eli to go? you are blind sir. eli showed progress but as of now it has to be

ben>eli>rivers and rivers not far behind eli

stats mean everything and in the regular season he just hasnt got it done

and i beg you not to use some stupid redskins excuse, because it has nothing to do with my opinion on this matter
Yesssss....You're here!

Show me ONE POST where I have said he is a top 5 QB. Just one.
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These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
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