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Old 05-16-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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The difference between Calvin and any of those 3 is too big. With Rodgers throwing to them Burleson or Broyles could easily do what James Jones/Jordy Nelson did last season. Easily. Cobb is really the only thing in our favor, but he's no where near good enough to justify giving up Calvin.
You're really short-selling Nelson and Jones. Burleson is an over-the-hill receiver whose best days are behind him and Broyles is a slot receiver who has struggled to stay healthy and now has torn each ACL. I will not deny how incredible Calvin Johnson is, but one elite talent does not outweigh three good to very good players, especially when the best one of the trio (Randall Cobb) is 22 and we probably haven't seen his best football yet.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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You're really short-selling Nelson and Jones. Burleson is an over-the-hill receiver whose best days are behind him and Broyles is a slot receiver who has struggled to stay healthy and now has torn each ACL. I will not deny how incredible Calvin Johnson is, but one elite talent does not outweigh three good to very good players, especially when the best one of the trio (Randall Cobb) is 22 and we probably haven't seen his best football yet.
Age isn't a factor when i'm determining who is best. Again, assuming everyone else is healthy and i'm picking the best group to win now. Not in the future.

Jones is good but nothing special. Maybe he's slightly better than Burleson, but if he is, it's not by much. Put Jones on the Lions and Burleson on the Packers and we're talking about how much i'm selling Burleson short...

I'm not selling Nelson short either. He's a good receiver, but he's not top 10, not top 15. Calvin Johnson is the best receiver in the league and it's not even debatable. Nelson isn't on his planet.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Age isn't a factor when i'm determining who is best. Again, assuming everyone else is healthy and i'm picking the best group to win now. Not in the future.

Jones is good but nothing special. Maybe he's slightly better than Burleson, but if he is, it's not by much. Put Jones on the Lions and Burleson on the Packers and we're talking about how much i'm selling Burleson short...

I'm not selling Nelson short either. He's a good receiver, but he's not top 10, not top 15. Calvin Johnson is the best receiver in the league and it's not even debatable. Nelson isn't on his planet.
Jones and Burleson are not interchangeable players. Burleson provides very little any longer and after a broken leg he'll likely provide even less.

I'm not trying to say Nelson even compares to Johnson. The debate has been which trio is the best in the NFL. You clearly think that because of Calvin's greatest that he compensates for how insignificant of players Burleson and Broyles are while Nelson, Jones and Cobb are all good to very good players.

You can bring up the QB play and that factors into the production of the players being discussed, but if you ask Tom Brady which group of receivers he'd prefer, I can almost guarantee that he'd say the Packers bunch.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Jones and Burleson are not interchangeable players. Burleson provides very little any longer and after a broken leg he'll likely provide even less.

I'm not trying to say Nelson even compares to Johnson. The debate has been which trio is the best in the NFL. You clearly think that because of Calvin's greatest that he compensates for how insignificant of players Burleson and Broyles are while Nelson, Jones and Cobb are all good to very good players.

You can bring up the QB play and that factors into the production of the players being discussed, but if you ask Tom Brady which group of receivers he'd prefer, I can almost guarantee that he'd say the Packers bunch.
James isn't "very good". He's a decent, above average receiver. Is it any surprise that 9 of his touchdowns came in games where either Greg Jennings or Jordy Nelson were out? That's what any decent receiver could do when being thrown the ball by Aaron Rodgers.

And yes, Calvin Johnson does compensate for Burleson and Broyles, but they wouldn't be "insignificant if they had Rodgers at QB and then all of our receivers aren't amazing.

How exactly can you guarantee that? I'm sure he'd love to play with Calvin Johnson. Kind of like when he had Randy Moss and he had one of the best seasons ever by a quarterback...
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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What I gather is that you don't think Jordy Nelson and James Jones are all that good of receivers and you attribute the majority of their success to having Aaron Rodgers as their quarterback.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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What I gather is that you don't think Jordy Nelson and James Jones are all that good of receivers and you attribute the majority of their success to having Aaron Rodgers as their quarterback.
Well i'd say they're being overrated because of their stats and a decent amount of their success is down to Aaron Rodgers, yes. When you have an elite quarterback it's inevitable. They're still good receivers, but off the top of my head probably top 25 for Nelson and top 35 for Jones would be fair.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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For teams with an elite QB, I'd take almost any WR corps over Detroit's, because they're stuck giving QB money to a WR and the salary cap isn't expanding like it was under the old CBA.

Also, I agree with SP that Rodgers makes his guys look better than they are (likewise with Brady, Brees, Manning), and that's why I wouldn't want to pay top dollar for a top-5 WR if I already had a top-5 QB. The ROI just isn't there. You can have Rodgers going for 4800 and 42 with Calvin Johnson getting half those stats, or you can do it with Nelson/Cobb/Jones splitting those stats at a lower total cap number.

Once you start getting into "the best group to win now" you also have to start considering the salary cap.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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For teams with an elite QB, I'd take almost any WR corps over Detroit's, because they're stuck giving QB money to a WR and the salary cap isn't expanding like it was under the old CBA.

Also, I agree with SP that Rodgers makes his guys look better than they are (likewise with Brady, Brees, Manning), and that's why I wouldn't want to pay top dollar for a top-5 WR if I already had a top-5 QB. The ROI just isn't there. You can have Rodgers going for 4800 and 42 with Calvin Johnson getting half those stats, or you can do it with Nelson/Cobb/Jones splitting those stats at a lower total cap number.

Once you start getting into "the best group to win now" you also have to start considering the salary cap.
I wasn't taking salary cap into consideration or anything, but it's a good point. We let Jennings go because we knew we could get good production out of guys getting less money. That's what Aaron Rodgers does.

It's why I think we'll let James Jones walk next season. What's he gonna want and then what's Randall Cobb gonna want? Boykin, Johnson or Dorsey will be next in line and one of them will give good production for a fraction of what Jones could be making if he has another big year.

There is no real point in us having more than one receiver that has a big contract and no real point in us having any receiver earning more than $10M, for example.
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Old 05-16-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Love was released by the Pats, apparently because of a type 2 Diabetes diagnosis. Interesting, as that isn't generally considered a career ending thing for a professional athlete assuming they have the ethic and motivation to strictly manage it.

He played in a 4-3 but I think he could work very well in our 3-4 as a situation NT or Nickel guy. I'd love to see us snag him if he is available at the minimum.
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Love was released by the Pats, apparently because of a type 2 Diabetes diagnosis. Interesting, as that isn't generally considered a career ending thing for a professional athlete assuming they have the ethic and motivation to strictly manage it.

He played in a 4-3 but I think he could work very well in our 3-4 as a situation NT or Nickel guy. I'd love to see us snag him if he is available at the minimum.
I would've loved if we could've added Love, but Jacksonville snagged him up.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Smart teams can take away Megatron, then you have nothing really.

With a great trio, and versatile, like Cobb, Jordy, and Jones, it's much tougher to defend.

I would not, in anyway, trade our 3 for their 3, even getting Calvin. Think about it, plus for us, he'd get hurt. Then you're left with guys like Billy Schroeder and Sanjay Beach being counted on.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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smart teams can take away calvin? not sure if srs, but you do know he just set the all time record for receiving yds, right? if it was so easy i'm sure we wouldn't of ripped every secondary to shreads.

and again, i'm not taking injuries, contracts or anything like that into account, because what has that actually go to do with which group is best? i know if we assume those things it makes it easier to vote for the packers trio, but still.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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smart teams can take away calvin? not sure if srs, but you do know he just set the all time record for receiving yds, right? if it was so easy i'm sure we wouldn't of ripped every secondary to shreads.

and again, i'm not taking injuries, contracts or anything like that into account, because what has that actually go to do with which group is best? i know if we assume those things it makes it easier to vote for the packers trio, but still.
Stafford also threw the ball 727 times this past year (45 times a game) and Johnson led the league in targets with 205. Johnson is great, but the stats can also be deceiving since he played on a team who was always behind, constantly threw the ball, and he was targeted more than double than any other player on the team. He had five TD receptions, which tied him for 40th in the league.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Stafford also threw the ball 727 times this past year (45 times a game) and Johnson led the league in targets with 205. Johnson is great, but the stats can also be deceiving since he played on a team who was always behind, constantly threw the ball, and he was targeted more than double than any other player on the team. He had five TD receptions, which tied him for 40th in the league.
forget about the stats then? he's still the best receiiver in the NFL by a mile.

the stats don't do him justice tbh. hes getting double teamed on every play and stafford sucks.

the td stat is misleading as well. can't count how many times i saw him tackled on the 1 yard line. taking only play into account, a touchdown throw is not different to any other throw and catch. having less or more touchdowns doesn't mean he is any less good.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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Agree to disagree

Let's get back to talking about the Green Bay Packers.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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packers mt rushmore? who's on it?

-favre
-rodgers? or is it too early?
-lombardi
-lambeau
-hutson
-ron wolf
-reggie white
-bart starr

picking 4 is tough.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Curly Lambeau - founded the team, has to be included
Brett Favre - greatest QB in team history
Vince Lombardi - greatest coach in team history, has most important trophy named after him
Don Hutson - probably the best player to ever suit up for the Packers
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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that's probably what i'd go with. lombardi and lambeau just have to be on there. people are putting bart starr on but i think that era is more centered around lombardi. and as you said, hutson is the best packer ever. if rodgers continues down his path and say wins another superbowl, who gets bumped? favre or hutson?
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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that's probably what i'd go with. lombardi and lambeau just have to be on there. people are putting bart starr on but i think that era is more centered around lombardi. and as you said, hutson is the best packer ever. if rodgers continues down his path and say wins another superbowl, who gets bumped? favre or hutson?
Brett would be the one to get bumped, but I think it'll be tough to knock him off. He was the central figure in bringing back the Packers to prominence, and if it wasn't for the team's success for such a sustained period of time, Lambeau and the surrounding area would likely not be what it is today. I know there was plenty of controversy with him towards the end of his time, but what he's meant to the franchise is hard to beat.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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This is not mean to discount what Brett meant to the Packers' revival but Reggie White deserves some credit too. The Minister choosing Green Bay over several other suitors (with more recent success) was a turning point. I don't think it is likely guys like Sean Jones and Santana Dotson come to Green Bay without Reggie White. The year before Reggie signed the defense was ranked 23rd. The next season the defensive ranking was 2nd. And that was before both Jones and Dotson came along.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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Yeah White was a monster. I remember the first game I saw him play was watching the '97 Super Bowl and I was focusing in on him obviously knowing that he was meant to be this incredible player. I wasn't disappointed.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Lambeau
Lombardi
Hutson
Starr

Brett would have been on over Starr but he killed it with his pettiness the last 3 years towards GB. Best QB in franchise history(for now), but Starr is a class act and still does stuff for the organization to this day. He was also one of the most clutch playoff QB's and was the first SB MVP. His legacy is preserved, Brett's was tarnished. Starr goes in over Brett for these reasons in my book. There's a reason Rodgers seeked out Starr as a mentor and is friends with him
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Brett would have been on over Starr but he killed it with his pettiness the last 3 years towards GB. Best QB in franchise history(for now), but Starr is a class act and still does stuff for the organization to this day. He was also one of the most clutch playoff QB's and was the first SB MVP. His legacy is preserved, Brett's was tarnished. Starr goes in over Brett for these reasons in my book. There's a reason Rodgers seeked out Starr as a mentor and is friends with him
I'm not gonna give the Starr the nod over Favre because Starr has been "the better soldier" over time, especially when Brett dwarfed what Bart did on the field minus one less ring. There's plenty of negatives Brett had the field early in his career as well and everything he did (both good and bad) added to the uniqueness of the player that Favre was. When it comes to Brett, his ill-will rests with Ted Thompson and how he handled the whole split (and I am not saying that Brett isn't to blame as well), and I feel confident Brett still have a place in his heart for Green Bay and its fans.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers has to do more than just win another Super Bowl before he surpasses Favre. If anything, you bump Favre off the list in favor of Ron Wolf or Bob Harlan. Before Harlan/Wolf/Favre/White showed up, there was semi-serious talk that the team may ultimately have to liquidate (moving to a different city isn't an option). Today, that's a laughable idea.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Rodgers has to do more than just win another Super Bowl before he surpasses Favre. If anything, you bump Favre off the list in favor of Ron Wolf or Bob Harlan. Before Harlan/Wolf/Favre/White showed up, there was semi-serious talk that the team may ultimately have to liquidate (moving to a different city isn't an option). Today, that's a laughable idea.
That was why I put Wolf on the list. His genius is the backbone to not only the 96 Packers but it was the foundation for the 2010 Packers and probably any other Super Bowl we ever win. As long as we keep on picking off of the Ron Wolf tree, his legacy is going to continue to grow. It was hard keeping him off my final 4, although it could, and probably should, be revised.
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